Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[madeleine]

I still find it strange that JR didn't notice the garotte on JB's neck (so he says)

 

[Ausgirl]

Just to add - one thing that hasn't really dawned on me til now is that there was a profound instinct to protect his body. The ambulance guys had ]to pretty much prise me off it to get him in the ambulance, and I am sure I snarled at a few neighbours on the way out.

Maybe that's why it's so unthinkable to me that a parent could treat their small daughter's body so cruelly. That was a pretty powerful instinct..

But yeah. "People do the damdest things" can work against the Ramseys, as well as for them, I suppose..

 

[Ausgirl]

TasteOfHoney, I actually can see a father's first instinct being to pick his child up and take her to 'safety' before doing anything else..

It's all a matter of where one's own POV is, and that is why I don't trust or value "wouldas" in this particular case as proof of anything, for or against.

To me, looking at fibre evidence, tangible things (even if they can also be disputed) makes more sense of the crime scene than assuming things about the behaviour of --potentially- grieving parents. The issue of the fibres twisted in the cord, etc, is a genuine hint IMO toward potential guilt that I cannot ignore or dismiss - even if I might dispute it as proof of guilt. it's still actually there and needs explaining...

 

[Nom de plume]

I don't have an issue with him picking her up and carrying her upstairs, IF he didn't have anything to do with her death. What I have the HUGE problem with is the WAY he carried her upstairs. Natural instinct, when finding a loved one dead, is to hold them close to you. You hold them close physically because you can't stand the thought that they're already gone and you'll never get to hold them again.

I have a HUGE problem with Patsy staying put when everyone else ran to see why FW was screaming for someone to call an ambulance.

I have a HUGE problem with JR attempting to flee, yes flee, Boulder for an "important business meeting" in Atlanta. First of all they were supposed to be in Charlevoix, not Atlanta that day, and second, who the hell thinks about a damn business meeting minutes after finding their daughter murdered?!

I'm sorry, but those things can't just be explained away.

 

[2 percent]

I still find it strange that JR didn't notice the garotte on JB's neck (so he says)

We have no independent way of knowing how JB was lying when JR found her. If her long hair was covering her neck, curled around her neck, it's possible he didn't see it.

If he wasn't involved in her death, the shock alone may have made him miss the garrotte. If he's involved, it's a little different because he could have gone both ways on this. Claiming he didn't see it probably seems a little safer than saying he did and didn't try to remove it (like the tape) when he found her. But to be honest, saying he didn't see it hasn't made him less of a suspect in people's minds.

 

[tezi]

I agree that in such tragic moments we might lose it and react different but what I am having problems with is the R's detaching themselves that morning (JR carrying her like he did,PR not moving from the couch,them wanting to leave ASAP,etc)...I agree I wouldn't give a damn about keeping the scene secured,I would hold my beloved one close and you'd need to point a gun at me to let go.

Yes it's all about the detaching.:banghead::banghead:

I still find it strange that JR didn't notice the garotte on JB's neck (so he says)

Yes, and how did those pesky fibers get in the knot of the garotte?:facepalm:

AusGirl, we are all very sorry for what you have been through. I hope none of my posts have offended you in any way...(((Hugs))):seeya:

As always, JMO.

 

[Chelly]

I don't have an issue with him picking her up and carrying her upstairs, IF he didn't have anything to do with her death. What I have the HUGE problem with is the WAY he carried her upstairs. Natural instinct, when finding a loved one dead, is to hold them close to you. You hold them close physically because you can't stand the thought that they're already gone and you'll never get to hold them again.

I have a HUGE problem with Patsy staying put when everyone else ran to see why FW was screaming for someone to call an ambulance.

I have a HUGE problem with JR attempting to flee, yes flee, Boulder for an "important business meeting" in Atlanta. First of all they were supposed to be in Charlevoix, not Atlanta that day, and second, who the hell thinks about a damn business meeting minutes after finding their daughter murdered?!

I'm sorry, but those things can't just be explained away.

Agree! This is extremely unusual behavior indicative of state of mind. It demonstrates they knew their daughter was dead before the above events unfolded. Additionally, what loving parent would behave that way? They wanted Out of Dodge ASAP. They may have even planned to flee the U.S.

 

[madeleine]

We have no independent way of knowing how JB was lying when JR found her. If her long hair was covering her neck, curled around her neck, it's possible he didn't see it.

If he wasn't involved in her death, the shock alone may have made him miss the garrotte. If he's involved, it's a little different because he could have gone both ways on this. Claiming he didn't see it probably seems a little safer than saying he did and didn't try to remove it (like the tape) when he found her. But to be honest, saying he didn't see it hasn't made him less of a suspect in people's minds.

I am having huge problems with this particular part of the PDI theory...that JR had no clue until he found the body....

-the fibers in JB's panties
-too many trips to the basement
-FW didn't see the body when he opened the door>>the body was probably moved closer to the door and not by PR>>>who else than JR
-he is not the type of man (huge huge ego) who would stand by a psycho wife who murdered his own daughter (not after losing another child,which must have been painful)
-chronic abuse (I am not saying it's impossible for it to be PDI+corporal punishment,I just find it more likely that it was done by a male in the house)

 

[Agatha_C]

Not those pesky fibers again! I don’t believe they appeared in her new size 12 bloomies at 1:05 pm. JR wasn’t wearing that shirt on the afternoon of JB’s discovery.

There are some who say that a good liar always mixes in some truth. Keep that in mind when one looks at JR’s statements. He truly tripped himself up on his statements about his visits to the basement. In one of his interviews he said he was down there around 7:30- 8:00 am, then about 10:00 am more or less. He told his daughter M’s fiancé that he discovered JB at 11:00. Then we have the “final discovery” at 1:05 PM. One of the issues with the 7:30-8:00 am visit down there was that he described in detail having to move a chair and boxes in front of the train room. What he did not realize was that Detective French and FW were down there before that. FW was in the basement around 6:15 or so. French was down there looking for an entry way into the home sometime around 7:00 am. Neither of them saw boxes or a chair blocking the train room.

If one assumes that 1:05 pm was the correct and first time of discovery, then yes, we would not be able to assess why he chose to bring her up. If not involved at all in the homicide or cover-up, then it could be he was reacting as Ausgirl has described – just doing what he felt important to do at the time of discovery. If, OTOH, he either had participated in the crime and/or cover-up, all bets are off what he was trying to do. moo

Howdy Quest, perhaps this will help...

ARCHIVED STORY: Interview with John and Patsy Ramsey, part 1
THE RAMSEYS SPEAK: JonBenet's parents voice their frustrations

Response (John): ``Of course, we don't know exactly when JonBenet died. . . . Her small body was cool and rigid when I found her (the morning of Dec. 26). I selected Dec. 25 because I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people 50 years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at that marker and say, `The world went mad on that Christmas Day.' ''

John said he found her in the morning.... His words from his interview... He also blamed the whole world for her death. Everyone except for them is guilty. Can you believe the nerve these people have/had????
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/ne...ed-story-interview-john-and-patsy-ramsey-par/

 

[questfortrue]

Howdy Quest, perhaps this will help...

ARCHIVED STORY: Interview with John and Patsy Ramsey, part 1
THE RAMSEYS SPEAK: JonBenet's parents voice their frustrations

Response (John): ``Of course, we don't know exactly when JonBenet died. . . . Her small body was cool and rigid when I found her (the morning of Dec. 26). I selected Dec. 25 because I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people 50 years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at that marker and say, `The world went mad on that Christmas Day.' ''

John said he found her in the morning.... His words from his interview... He also blamed the whole world for her death. Everyone except for them is guilty. Can you believe the nerve these people have/had????
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/ne...ed-story-interview-john-and-patsy-ramsey-par/

By his own words. Then the question becomes, why didn't he inform LE in the morning when he found her? I'm with Maddie on this one. Too many trips to the basement. moo

 

[chlban]

Ausgirl, so sorry for your loss and the terrible experience of finding your loved one.

Like many here, I am RDI based on a totality of the evidence, both forensic and circumstantial which, IMO, simply cannot be explained any other way.

However, also like many here, I am sure, I do not view every single point as evidence of guilt. For me, personally, John's reaction, as bizarre as it may seem, is not one of the points I would look to that proves either guilt or innocence. Just as I, personally, do not find Patsy wearring the same outfit on the 26th. that she wore on the 25th. to be evidence one way or another.

On this particular subject I have no idea how I would react. I pray I will never find out. I have seen loved ones after their death, of course, but I have never been the person to find them.

I believe that a Ramsey killed JonBenet, probably in a rage, and I believe that both John and Patsy ultimately worked together to cover it up, although I am not convinced of exactly when they both became part of the cover up. On this question though, I give John a pass. Its a neutral to me in the guilt/innocence question. Just as Patsy's very dramatic reaction proves neither guilt or innocence, IMO.

 

[Agatha_C]

By his own words. Then the question becomes, why didn't he inform LE in the morning when he found her? I'm with Maddie on this one. Too many trips to the basement. moo

His trips to the basement reminds me of our boxer (Harley). He has a deep love of human food. One day my girls left a bag of cookies on the coffee table in the family room and we left the house for a while. When we returned no one remembered the cookies but Harley was acting strange. He kept pacing back and forth in front of his blanket. Upon further inspection of said blankets we found the cookies hidden under them. He told on himself...LOL!!!!!!

JRs behavior reminds me of that day... He was nervous about his hidden cookie...

 

[SapphireSteel]

His trips to the basement reminds me of our boxer (Harley). He has a deep love of human food. One day my girls left a bag of cookies on the coffee table in the family room and we left the house for a while. When we returned no one remembered the cookies but Harley was acting strange. He kept pacing back and forth in front of his blanket. Upon further inspection of said blankets we found the cookies hidden under them. He told on himself...LOL!!!!!!

JRs behavior reminds me of that day... He was nervous about his hidden cookie...

Exactly. Some things just aren't normal. Hoisting your long dead daughter like a fence post and lugging her upstairs to present her to an audience = not natural.

JR and all his fancy education and career and planning and staging and lawyers and interviews - revealed for what he really is by a family dog.

:rockon:

 

[SapphireSteel]

SS, good questions.. truth is, it's all a bit of a blur but I'll answer as best as I can..

what was the first thing you did?

I was nudging him 'awake' with my foot, holding a bag of some sort of food I'd brought home, when it dawned on me he was "too solid" and not breathing.

The first thing after that was say something to his sister, and I heard her screaming, then I attempted to wake him up though he was clearly not breathing and in rigor.


How did you spend the very first few minutes? Sitting down like the air has been punched out of you would be the first thing but once your brain begins working - what was the first actual thing you did?

This is where it's blurry, a bit.. that whole day is pretty mixed up in my head. But I did attempt to turn him over, and that's when I saw his face.. nuff said there. And lay over his body, as the 'death' part had sort of sunk in a bit at that stage.


Did you attempt to move your loved one? Sit them up or carry them to another room? Or did you cover them and call 911?

Yes - see above. He was obv. an adult male, so no, no attempt to carry him.. IIRC his body wasn't covered until shortly before or just after the ambulance arrived. I'm not sure when we called emergency but not for quite a long time.. half an hour? and hour? I really couldn't say, but it wasn't right away. I'm sure we called family first. I think I lost grip on reality for a short time there. But I know the emergency call wasn't like, immediately.

There were moments of eerie calm, in which I felt no desire to move at a muscle. I was like that when the paramedics arrived. And then I'd be screaming my head off. I don't recall talking to the police at all, but I remember wishing they'd just go away. They weren't being very nice, was my feeling.

I'm sure it's different for everyone. But "would have" irks me, when it comes to grief. No-one can say what somebody else -will- or -should- do in a moment like that. Things tend to not follow rational procedure at all.. Some would think that someone being very calm and businesslike was odd, but that's how my friend was when her hubby died unexpectedly at 40. Robotic.. I think we do whatever it takes to cope.

I honestly think I cracked. I did some really bizarre things in the days to follow. Nothing major.. just small, really strange things. It made sense at the time..

Thank you for your post, how heart breaking for you. I am so sorry this happened to you and thankful you could share.

:rose:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just to add - one thing that hasn't really dawned on me til now is that there was a profound instinct to protect his body. The ambulance guys had ]to pretty much prise me off it to get him in the ambulance, and I am sure I snarled at a few neighbours on the way out.

Maybe that's why it's so unthinkable to me that a parent could treat their small daughter's body so cruelly. That was a pretty powerful instinct..

But yeah. "People do the damdest things" can work against the Ramseys, as well as for them, I suppose..

Ausgirl - absolutely. It could be your stumbling block. FWIW, your behaviour (calling family, crying and screaming, wandering aimlessly, losing time) is a natural reaction to shock. JR did none of these things when he found JB, he more or less dumped her on the carpet and started planning his flight.

I remember the words of the first person on the scene. I always want to know from the horses mouth what they thought they saw happening.

In this case, that's Linda Ardnt.

All I knew about her was, she'd been discredited and/or smeared, she'd quit, she'd had a long career before hand with zero problems. I knew she'd made mistakes that day, but there were qualifiers for that I could understand.

What I didn't know, until I went looking, was the in depth details about her testimony.

What I found chilled me to the bone. I was expecting some vague impressions, confusion maybe, a hinky feeling at worst.

This is what she actually experienced, in her own words -

sbm

Q. Prior to his coming up the stairs holding the body of JonBenet, did you have any suspicions that he might have been involved in the murder of JonBenet as opposed to the fact that it appeared to be a kidnapping at that time?

A. No.

Q. When you saw him coming up with the body of JonBenet, did you then go back to your recollections of his demeanor earlier that morning and say these things are starting to fit together as his being the murderer?

A. I can only tell you that at that point, everything made sense that didn't make sense before.

Q. What was it about seeing him carry the body that seemed to make sense to you that he was the murderer?...If you can, just explain what makes sense and why specifically.


A. No forced entry; no tracks; no breaking in the house; no sounds heard during the night; he's the last one to see her; behaviors by him; between he and his wife; by others; the ransom note in and of itself. I can't list the whole, all of the information...how he carried her was part of it.

Q. And describe that.

A. Her head above his head, so he didn't see her head, her face.

sbm

Q. You had concern about your personal safety as it related to John Ramsey that day?

A. After JonBenet came up the stairs, yes.

Q. And you'd counted the rounds in your weapon because you wanted to know whether or not you had enough ammunition to defend yourself if you had to in the Ramsey home?...an officer counts his rounds to make sure there is enough ammunition to defend one's self if necessary?

A. I was prepared to defend the rest of the people in that home.

Q. With the use of your weapon?

A. If need be...we were both bending over the body and he was closest to my gun.

Q. What, under those circumstances, would cause you to believe that he was a threat to your personal safety, John Ramsey was a threat to your personal safety?

A. I was alone in the house with a man who, whose daughter was murdered. I believed it was him, and I didn't know how he was going to react.

Q. Was there anything in the look in his eyes that added to this sense of threat from him?

A. At one point, yes...at the same time we were bending over both on the floor next to JonBenet.

Q. How close was your face to his at that point?

A. Inches.

Q. Did you have this concern for your personal safety regarding John's conduct after that moment?

A. I know that the threat was immediate.

http://www.acandyrose.com/03182000-arndtdepo-04102000.htm

This was far, far more than I expected. She came out and explained it all for me, in that feminine intuitive way we all share.

The way he carried the body, his demeanour, everything about the mystery fell into place at that second for her.

I know she's kind of dumb, arrogant and made many mistakes, but seeing the truth that morning was not one of them. :moo:

:sick:

 

[questfortrue]

I am having huge problems with this particular part of the PDI theory...that JR had no clue until he found the body....

-the fibers in JB's panties
-too many trips to the basement
-FW didn't see the body when he opened the door>>the body was probably moved closer to the door and not by PR>>>who else than JR
-he is not the type of man (huge huge ego) who would stand by a psycho wife who murdered his own daughter (not after losing another child,which must have been painful)
-chronic abuse (I am not saying it's impossible for it to be PDI+corporal punishment,I just find it more likely that it was done by a male in the house)

As we talk about behavior and the finding of a “hidden” body, some things occurred to me about JR. JR was good at hiding his private life and his private inclinations.

1) http://myhandwriting.com/celebs/jonbenet.html His handwriting changed from about 1978 to 1997 dramatically and, according to the interpretation of the handwriting analyst (and we know of course that these things are not scientifically proven), the handwriting in 1997 shows him to be “hiding” who he is. Only the capital letters are recognizable. (To give credit here, RR from FFJ originally brought this to my attention.)

2) JR had a 2-year affair while he was married to LP. He claimed that it was all her fault, she kissed him first and then when he responded and they had an affair he attributed it to her being like the woman in Fatal Attraction who would not let go. Yet, one of his good friends said that JR was a ladies man, but very discreet and one wouldn’t know about this side of JR unless you “wh’red” around with JR like this friend did.

3) He did hire an attorney for his ex-wife, and my first thought was that it was to make sure she didn’t reveal anything else about who he was while she was married to him – other affairs, etc.

Just my opinion, JR was plain excellent at hiding . . .hiding who he was, and, while I'm thinking about it, perhaps hiding artifacts of the crime scene, and maybe knowing what was hidden in the basement.

All moo.

 

[LadyL]

SS, forgive me - I'm not picking on you here. But this is not what it's like at all.

When you find a loved one who's recently died (and I mean measured in hours, not like, a week ago) unexpectedly, in your home, MY experience is that your mind doesn't turn to "insect activity".. or anything of the sort.

You see the person you love lying there, and they are not "a shell", sorry -- it's them, but they are not moving or breathing... "death" is a very hard thing to accept in that moment, and maybe some hours after.

A part of you knows they're gone, of course-- but another part is screaming that they can't be, and so, even though he was about as dead as dead gets, we still shook him, pleaded with him to wake up...

It's a crazy moment, quite literally. I don't think words adequately get across what it's like.

So there's a POV from somebody who HAS found a loved one dead, unexpectedly, in their own home.

Trust me, you don't register smells, potential insect activity, etc. We didn't even register the obvious fact he was in rigor, for a while...

I don't think there's any way to judge what they 'should have' done, or ascertain that what they did after discovering her body was 'wrong'. From my experience -- yeah. This stuff just didn't enter my mind, and IF it had been a crime scene, I would have contaminated the hell out of it. Because keeping the area pristine is about as far from one's thoughts as it gets, in a moment like that.

thank you ... I've been there too and everything you've described is spot on

I'm not even IDI but I do not think John's reaction in that moment was nefarious

 

[LadyL]

My fiance suicided, matter of fact. Thus the mention in my post of his "sudden" and "unexpected" death. and our subsequent shock at finding him.... and my point was that very few of your suppositions about how that situation might go were based in anything remotely like reality. Let me ask you your own question:



If so, was it a sudden, unexpected shock? Someone you loved very much?

If not, then how in heck would you KNOW how anyone might react in that situation?

I DO know. I know what a body looks and feels like. And I know how it feels to experience that shock, and that it doesn't matter that the body is -obviously dead- when disbelief takes hold. And I know my actions in that situation were not that far removed from the Ramsey's. Thus, I cannot find John lifting her body, or Patsy throwing herself on the body to be suspicious or "proof" of murder, whatever else they may have done that may be seen so.

~hugs~ to you Ausgirl

can I just add that even if a death is expected, it is STILL a shock

 

[Venom]

<sniped>

3) He did hire an attorney for his ex-wife, and my first thought was that it was to make sure she didn’t reveal anything else about who he was while she was married to him – other affairs, etc.
<sniped>

And things like child abuse. JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ausgirl, so sorry for your loss and the terrible experience of finding your loved one.

Like many here, I am RDI based on a totality of the evidence, both forensic and circumstantial which, IMO, simply cannot be explained any other way.

However, also like many here, I am sure, I do not view every single point as evidence of guilt. For me, personally, John's reaction, as bizarre as it may seem, is not one of the points I would look to that proves either guilt or innocence. Just as I, personally, do not find Patsy wearring the same outfit on the 26th. that she wore on the 25th. to be evidence one way or another.

On this particular subject I have no idea how I would react. I pray I will never find out. I have seen loved ones after their death, of course, but I have never been the person to find them.

I believe that a Ramsey killed JonBenet, probably in a rage, and I believe that both John and Patsy ultimately worked together to cover it up, although I am not convinced of exactly when they both became part of the cover up. On this question though, I give John a pass. Its a neutral to me in the guilt/innocence question. Just as Patsy's very dramatic reaction proves neither guilt or innocence, IMO.

Me either.

All of my comments have been intended directly to answer the question posed by the thread,

"Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?"

You absolutely cannot prove innocence or guilt just from genuinely grief stricken behaviour, but you can see any inconsistencies in behaviours, such as in JR's case.

Investigators thrive on inconsistencies. It's usually where the lies are.

:twocents: