Evidence you can't explain

[Venom]

I'd speculate that it was since she was approaching forty and was probably a good candidate for "anti-aging" makeup. Refraction and reflection can play great tricks on old lady wrinkles and lines. :wink:

Or maybe wrinkles from chemo?

 

[chlban]

. And as far as I know, as far as suspecting the parents was concerned, this was seen as an accident gone bad with a cover up and the note being part of that cover up. So, on the surface anyway, PR's hypothetical scenario question seemed kind of pointless. But now that we know there might have been a time lapse between the head bash and strangulation, in hindsight, it looks like PR might have let something slip...that the note was written before the murder.

Wow, that is food for thought. I have always been pretty much in the accident gone bad camp of RDI, and I have always leaned strongly to PDI.

Unlike many people I don't have trouble seeing Patsy do the staging on her own either. In fact, I think she may have initially thought she could even convince John of an intruder, but that once he saw the ransom note that scenario was over.

As for the "mother could not do that to her own child" argument, I guess I have read too many books (and you all know how evil those things are) like Fatal Vision, Small Sacrifices, Precious Angels, etc. and just followed too many cases of parents doing horrendous things to their children to exclude P of being fully capable of the staging.

However I have never seriously considered that Patsy or any of the Ramseys for that matter, premeditated the killing to the degree that she could have written the Rahsom Note ahead of time. But that does seem to be an interesting slip of the tongue.

 

[Venom]

IMO the splinters ended up there by transfer,whoever broke the stick touched JB afterwards {maybe when wiping her off?}

That is a possibility.

About the time between head bash and strangulation, I thought that they had to be in close proximity due to there not being much blood from bleeding in her head? (Wecht's theory)

 

[UKGuy]

No disrespect and we all have our opinions, but I believe that psychology is important to most, if not all, cases and understanding why helps to work out who (or maybe too much Agatha Christie). I am RDI but I can't fix on who actually did what because there is too much to me that is unexplained. I think "why the cord" is important.

I have to believe that either the cord wasn't staging and the intended use was to kill JB or that it was staging and someone was emotionally cold enough to tighten it enough to kill her. Now I thought that the evidence points more to staging (and please correct me if I am wrong) than deliberate use of the cord, but if that is what happened there is a bunch of stuff that no longer fits. If it was staging, I can't imagine being able to do that to anyone's child, let alone my own, even if I thought they were already dead. Either way, the psychology of the person able to do either of these acts will help to point at the perpetrator.

What works for me is that the use of the cord is important enough that it overcomes the pain, the squeamishness of using it on JB. My only idea is that it hides or directs away from other evidence and it seems that that is unsupported by facts.

Detective Pinkie,
The cord can function as both staging and deliberate use to kill. Consider that the R's declined to dial for medical assistance, this might inform you regarding any consequent behavor?

The cord is not really important in the sense it has been cataloged as forensic evidence, we know some R applied the cord to JonBenet's neck and deliberately constricted her windpipe. Enough to asphyxiate her, you decide?

Much more important and unexplained in most RDI theories is her head injury. You must apply your psychological insight to why any one of the R's might want to whack JonBenet on the head, particularly after molesting her?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Another thing about that cord...awhile back, someone linked a Larry King interview where PR was having a heated debate with Steve Thomas and at one point she point blank asked him, (and I'm relying on a written transcript here), " you must have conjured something in your head for you to come out and call me a murderer of my child. I want to hear 1 through 10. When did I write this ransom note? Before or after I killed JonBenet? This whole exchange really bothered me. 1st of all, what kind of mother could utter the words, 'before or after I killed (insert your child's name here)'? Secondly, I don't know what rumors were going around about the ransom note, but dang!!! She boldly put the possibility out there that it could have been written BEFORE the murder. And as far as I know, as far as suspecting the parents was concerned, this was seen as an accident gone bad with a cover up and the note being part of that cover up. So, on the surface anyway, PR's hypothetical scenario question seemed kind of pointless. But now that we know there might have been a time lapse between the head bash and strangulation, in hindsight, it looks like PR might have let something slip...that the note was written before the murder.

dodie20,
And that would be consistent with my BDI.


.

 

[UKGuy]

That is a possibility.

About the time between head bash and strangulation, I thought that they had to be in close proximity due to there not being much blood from bleeding in her head? (Wecht's theory)

Venom,
There might be two scenarios:

1. Digital Penetration as described by Coroner Meyer.

2. Paintbrush Penetration using the missing piece.

Both may have taken place with 2. intended as staging to mask 1.


.

 

[deca]

A thought that I had was garrote-as-leash or punishment device. Patsy got into an argument that night with JB and put the garrote on her- maybe tying the end to something to act as a leash. At some point, head bash occurs and JB is "dead". Later in the staging, the garrote is tightened? Or maybe JB's own weight tightened the garrote after she was bashed?

 

[DeeDee249]

Remember that just because JR SAID he didn't see the cord around her neck when he carried her up doesn't mean he was telling the truth. To be honest, I don't see how he could have missed it, especially since he claimed to have tried to untie her wrists. The wrist loops were CONNECTED to the neck cord- they only appear in pieces in the crime photos because the coroner CUT them apart, carefully marking the places where they had been cut with a marker.
Of course, he really didn't try to untie her wrists either- there were NO marks on her wrists to indicate they had been tied tightly at all.

The coroner would surely have noted ANY evidence of manual strangulation- and he did not. The marks from a manual strangulation are different from those of a ligature, and both would have been seen had both occurred.

The large, reddish triangular mark on the front of her throat is a common occurrence in strangulation victims. It represents blood pooling right under the skin at a pressure point. It is not an indication of one method over another. It is not usually seen in manual strangulations because the pressure on the throat is more uniform and dispersed differently . It is more commonly seen in ligature strangulations, especially if there is twisting.

 

[dodie20]

Wow, that is food for thought. I have always been pretty much in the accident gone bad camp of RDI, and I have always leaned strongly to PDI.

Unlike many people I don't have trouble seeing Patsy do the staging on her own either. In fact, I think she may have initially thought she could even convince John of an intruder, but that once he saw the ransom note that scenario was over.

As for the "mother could not do that to her own child" argument, I guess I have read too many books (and you all know how evil those things are) like Fatal Vision, Small Sacrifices, Precious Angels, etc. and just followed too many cases of parents doing horrendous things to their children to exclude P of being fully capable of the staging.

However I have never seriously considered that Patsy or any of the Ramseys for that matter, premeditated the killing to the degree that she could have written the Rahsom Note ahead of time. But that does seem to be an interesting slip of the tongue.

I'm not sure I think there was premeditation in the sense that this whole night was planned, but if there was a considerable time lapse between the bash and strangulation, that opens up a few possibilities. One being, that after JB was bashed in the head, the perp went upstairs and wrote the note and then went back down and finished with the strangulation. IMO, there probably wasn't much motive besides anger for the bashing, but the motive for the murder might have been to cover up the bashing/abuse. The skull was cracked something terribly and IMO, the person who hit JB, might have heard the break and realized this was more than he/she wanted to explain to the hospital. So, the choices might have been to either get help where JB would probably die anyway, or finish the job a little quicker and lie. In both scenarios, JB would die, so the perp might have decided to self preserve. All just a theory and moo, based on a reported time lapse between the bash and strangulation.

 

[Steely Dan]

Does anyone know if there is a copy of the 911 recording on the net somewhere?

 

[otg]

DeeDee, I think you're mistaken about the two ligatures being connected. They are described separately in the AR, and there would be no need to cut them apart if they were one continuous cord. The one around her neck was marked and cut by Meyer in order to preserve the knot when removing the ligature from her neck. The marks he made and described in the AR can be seen in this photo:

 

[BOESP]

Does anyone know if there is a copy of the 911 recording on the net somewhere?

Try this link:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3744"]Listen To Patsy Ramsey's 911 Call. Hear the Truth. Lin Wood Lied. - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[gramcracker]

^ the big issues are presented/examined here

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682511/The 911 Call

 

[Linda7NJ]

Remember that just because JR SAID he didn't see the cord around her neck when he carried her up doesn't mean he was telling the truth. To be honest, I don't see how he could have missed it, especially since he claimed to have tried to untie her wrists. The wrist loops were CONNECTED to the neck cord- they only appear in pieces in the crime photos because the coroner CUT them apart, carefully marking the places where they had been cut with a marker.
Of course, he really didn't try to untie her wrists either- there were NO marks on her wrists to indicate they had been tied tightly at all.

The coroner would surely have noted ANY evidence of manual strangulation- and he did not. The marks from a manual strangulation are different from those of a ligature, and both would have been seen had both occurred.

The large, reddish triangular mark on the front of her throat is a common occurrence in strangulation victims. It represents blood pooling right under the skin at a pressure point. It is not an indication of one method over another. It is not usually seen in manual strangulations because the pressure on the throat is more uniform and dispersed differently . It is more commonly seen in ligature strangulations, especially if there is twisting.

I believe John saw the rope around her neck, knew she was dead ... And his performance was just that.


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[Steely Dan]

Try this link:

Listen To Patsy Ramsey's 911 Call. Hear the Truth. Lin Wood Lied. - Forums For Justice

Wow, that performance wouldn't even pass a high school drama course. Sometimes all you need to hear is the 911 call to get the hinky meter set to high.

 

[dodie20]

A far as evidence that I can't make sense of no matter how hard I try, my problem is with staging versus non staging. Except for the note, I'm not sure. Because a lot would depend on if the perp planned to move the body or not. If he/she did intend to move the body, then changed his mind, did he THEN go back and stage some things? Or was her body left exactly as found? If the rape wasn't staging to cover prior sex abuse, then why the rape? And if he was planning to remove the body, there was no need to cover prior abuse, unless he intended to bring the body back. Honestly though, I can't imagine even the sickest mind toting a dead child's body back and forth from here to there. I guess what I have the biggest problem with as far as evidence goes, no matter what theory on the killer, is the rape. Because it happened at the same time as death. Since she was bashed earlier, (I know some people believe differently), and was obviously dying, I don't think this was a sexual thing. There would be no reason to strangle an already unconscious child for gratification. And if the rape was to cover prior abuse, would a killer have the presence of mind to kill and rape at the same time? Or was the perp trying to replicate what he thought a psycho intruder would do? But someone willing to commit murder wouldn't be satisfied with a paint brush as a rape tool-surely a stager would realize that? This is one of those things that points to a woman, imo. I guess I lean towards the perp wanting the body found and the rape being used to cover prior abuse, but...I still have lingering doubts there

 

[madeleine]

Venom,
There might be two scenarios:

1. Digital Penetration as described by Coroner Meyer.

2. Paintbrush Penetration using the missing piece.

Both may have taken place with 2. intended as staging to mask 1.


.

but how exactly does 2 mask 1???i don't get it....it's the other way around,it draws attention to it IMO

 

[madeleine]

also,the stick would have caused different scars,more damage ,more blood?

 

[madeleine]

I still stick to my opinion re this....if they wanted to make it look like a sick pedo did it they wouldn't have bothered to wipe her off,redress her,clean the blood,etc...

:moo:

 

[questfortrue]

I still stick to my opinion re this....if they wanted to make it look like a sick pedo did it they wouldn't have bothered to wipe her off,redress her,clean the blood,etc...

:moo:

I’ve wondered these same questions. Some things are unclear. The “bifringent” material might have arrived on a gloved finger, and something else may have caused her vaginal injuries that night. But assuming a paintbrush injury, I agree this makes no sense as a mock pedo scene to thereafter clean and redress her.

The FBI said there was likely 2 killers, one organized and one disorganized. So in that line of thinking there could have been 2 stagers at this point and it is one idea for resolving a conflicted scene. However, I’m thinking this part with the paintbrush may have been PR’s. Disorganized example: Some things just do not track, A,B, C, D etc. They might do A and then decide to tackle D and then go back to B. “Oh, yeah, JR can’t stand the sight of blood so I’d better clean her up.”

Meyer said the likely instrument (the paintbrush) wasn’t gently inserted, but jabbed into her. I agree it seems so improbable that anyone would think that this would hide prior abuse (staging) Another scenario to the idea of hiding prior abuse is based on a mother blaming the victim, and this might point to PR who may have had a violent reaction to her daughter’s involvement in sex with a member of the family (moo, this went beyond a ‘playing doctor’ scenario). So the paintbrush may have been an assault on JB with dual motivations – disguise prior abuse plus real anger at the victim.
All this MOO.