France France - Cotes d'Azur, 4 Sets of Remains, 'Death to Paedophiles' on 1 skull, Feb'13

[Ausgirl]

In light of that idea Wolf suggested, I've been looking at articles on bone degradation in sea water..

The general take on it, as far as I can see so far, is that exposed bones are at much more risk of serious degradation than bones buried under silt.

Forensic studies demonstrate that in most marine
environments a human corpse will be reduced to skeletal
form in less than three weeks, although some degree of
articulation may prevail for as long as 18 months. Following
the loss of soft tissue, skeletal surfaces are abraded
by current-driven sediments. Physical transport of the
remains by currents may result in their impact with hard
surfaces to cause additional breakage and dispersal.
Biological activity involving boring, encrusting and
scavenging further degrades bones, resulting in advanced
deterioration within 12 years, even in cases of the most
durable skeletal parts (Mays, 2008: 125).

...bones are unlikely to be preserved on sites characterized
by solid sea bottoms (rock or hard substrata), where they
are not sealed within anaerobic contexts.

http://shipwreck.net/pdf/OMEPaper11-HumanRemainsfoundonVictory.pdf

Basically, if the bones are protected by layers of silt and/or being trapped in a wrecked ship (affording protection from predators/bacteria) they can survive for hundreds, even thousands of years.

If they're just lying on the ocean floor, they'd be lucky to last 12 years, let alone the 20 since Stephane Hirson went missing.

 

[Snoods]

rsbm

This is a really good thought, Wolf Dreamer.

Trophies kept in a killer's home is a pretty feasible explanation for why there's only one bone per victim, as well as a possible reason for the message (display, triumph over the victim). As well as why they're all found together like that in a clump - the whole lot dumped in the sea. Maybe the killer was being eyeballed for some other crime and was panicked enough to dispose of the evidence of former ones.

I so hope they find some answers to this, for both curiosity's sake and of course the families of all those people..

That certainly is a good explanation, Wolf Dreamer. The one bone per person is (one of) the strangest thing about it, and that would definitely explain it. That actually makes a lot of sense, the trophy thing.

I wonder where the rest of the bodies are.

 

[Snoods]

In light of that idea Wolf suggested, I've been looking at articles on bone degradation in sea water..

The general take on it, as far as I can see so far, is that exposed bones are at much more risk of serious degradation than bones buried under silt.

Forensic studies demonstrate that in most marine
environments a human corpse will be reduced to skeletal
form in less than three weeks, although some degree of
articulation may prevail for as long as 18 months. Following
the loss of soft tissue, skeletal surfaces are abraded
by current-driven sediments. Physical transport of the
remains by currents may result in their impact with hard
surfaces to cause additional breakage and dispersal.
Biological activity involving boring, encrusting and
scavenging further degrades bones, resulting in advanced
deterioration within 12 years, even in cases of the most
durable skeletal parts (Mays, 2008: 125).

...bones are unlikely to be preserved on sites characterized
by solid sea bottoms (rock or hard substrata), where they
are not sealed within anaerobic contexts.

http://shipwreck.net/pdf/OMEPaper11-HumanRemainsfoundonVictory.pdf

Basically, if the bones are protected by layers of silt and/or being trapped in a wrecked ship (affording protection from predators/bacteria) they can survive for hundreds, even thousands of years.

If they're just lying on the ocean floor, they'd be lucky to last 12 years, let alone the 20 since Stephane Hirson went missing.

That's very interesting, thank you for doing the research.

We know the victims were killed at least ten years ago, due to their time in the water.

In Hirson's case I'm assuming he was killed 20 years ago, at the time of his disappearance.

We know one bone from each victim has been in the water for ten years, one with Death to Pedophiles and a target drawn on it. This is the skull of the 50 or younger man.

Two bones recovered from two women in their 30's, and a humerus from Stephane. I wonder if this was his broken humerus?

The murderer needing to suddenly discard the trophy bones does make a lot of sense.

 

[Tucarra]

Anyone speak French?

http://www.leparisien.fr/seine-et-m...94-aurait-ete-retrouve-05-11-2013-3289273.php

Yes..or 'Oui"...I speak French....gonna catch up on the thread...

 

[Ausgirl]

Awesome, Tucarra - I've been chafing about not being able to check the French newspapers for updates, or comments on French sites that might be interesting.. darned language barriers! lol..

I'm also wondering how well DNA would be preserved in bones left lying in the ocean.. I presume at least some were in plain view, since the diver found them. If there's some sort of general decay rate for DNA in salt water, in exposed bone, maybe the time frame could be narrowed a little bit.. That they could ID Stephane so solidly makes me wonder how his DNA survived 20 years, or even a decade, in the ocean. If it's unusual for DNA to still be intact enough for positive testing after that amount of time, perhaps that could bolster Wolf's theory a little bit too.

Any DNA experts here?

 

[Elainera]

But if they were trophies why would the killer take different bones as trophy from each of his victims? Isn't that a bit unusual?

 

[Ausgirl]

But if they were trophies why would the killer take different bones as trophy from each of his victims? Isn't that a bit unusual?

I think most serial killers are a bit unusual, both in general and often with the particulars of their crimes. Look at Dahmer and his trophies, and his poor 'zombie' victims. Unusual, to the extreme..

 

[Tucarra]

But if they were trophies why would the killer take different bones as trophy from each of his victims? Isn't that a bit unusual?

Well, a wild guess would say serial killers have very unusual motives ??

 

[Elainera]

Yes of course you are both right! 'Unusual' doesn't even begin to describe a serial killer. Still, I find it weird, it feels inconsistent to me. Don't they mostly have a certain pattern that they follow, a modus operandi?

But anything is possible I guess.

 

[Ausgirl]

The MO is the -how- of the crime. Like, if dismemberment is purely for ease of disposal, that would count as part of the MO. A killer may use the same MO over and over if he's learned it works well for him, or he may change his MO (using different weapons or disposal methods, for example) as he gains experience/experiments with different victims, etc. He may change MO to evade detection, too.

The signature speaks to the -why- of it, something 'unnecessary' that the killer feels compelled to do during a crime. Keeping portions of a victim for trophies would count as part of the 'signature'. It's much more rare for a signature to change dramatically, as it tends to fulfil some psychological need the killer has.

It could be simply coincidence that only a single bone from each victim was found in that clump of evidence.. but IMO it's a pretty big coincidence.

The anger in the message 'death to pedophiles' on the skull of the older man also suggests there might be trophies involved.. It also might be a hint that the killer needs to feel justified in the murders he has committed.

It's all wild speculation, of course.. but puzzling cases like this really get my mind into gear thinking of possible hows and whys. :waitasec:

 

[Elainera]

Just reading up on Dahmer - maybe the killer in this case was inspired by him! Dahmer certainly knew how to dissect a body and clean the bones, etc.

 

[Snoods]

Yes of course you are both right! 'Unusual' doesn't even begin to describe a serial killer. Still, I find it weird, it feels inconsistent to me. Don't they mostly have a certain pattern that they follow, a modus operandi?

But anything is possible I guess.

I agree, it feels inconsistent to me as well. SK's usually do have a certain pattern they follow. But to me the inconsistency is the variance in victims. Maybe this is a killer that chooses victims by opportunity, not type.

 

[Snoods]

The MO is the -how- of the crime. Like, if dismemberment is purely for ease of disposal, that would count as part of the MO. A killer may use the same MO over and over if he's learned it works well for him, or he may change his MO (using different weapons or disposal methods, for example) as he gains experience/experiments with different victims, etc. He may change MO to evade detection, too.

The signature speaks to the -why- of it, something 'unnecessary' that the killer feels compelled to do during a crime. Keeping portions of a victim for trophies would count as part of the 'signature'. It's much more rare for a signature to change dramatically, as it tends to fulfil some psychological need the killer has.

It could be simply coincidence that only a single bone from each victim was found in that clump of evidence.. but IMO it's a pretty big coincidence.

The anger in the message 'death to pedophiles' on the skull of the older man also suggests there might be trophies involved.. It also might be a hint that the killer needs to feel justified in the murders he has committed.

It's all wild speculation, of course.. but puzzling cases like this really get my mind into gear thinking of possible hows and whys. :waitasec:

BBM Yes, and why do I have the feeling that this will be something that will surprise us all?

 

[SilkySifaka]

Just reading up on Dahmer - maybe the killer in this case was inspired by him! Dahmer certainly knew how to dissect a body and clean the bones, etc.

Dahmer is the one serial killer that i have some empathy for. He hated what he was, he was just so lonely he wanted to make "friends" stay with him. He tried to stop a couple of times or took actions that should have meant he wouldn't couldn't kill in a certain place (like moving in with grandma) but it still had a hold of him. He was very cruel and tortured his victims but its his after crime behavior that showed how sick he was. And unlike most serial killers he seemed to recognize that he was batshit abnormal.

The interviews with Dahmer and his father showed him trying to come to grips with what he had done.

I don't feel sorry for the serial killer part of him but the piece of him that knew how sick he was and the boy he was before he grew into it

 

[SCHMAE]

Could the under 50 yr old have been the pedo and the others , who seem much younger, been the victims? And somehow another person knew this was going on and killed the pedo ? Or .... could the 'death to pedo' be a trick to throw someone off the trail?
Interesting !

 

[Elainera]

Dahmer is the one serial killer that i have some empathy for. He hated what he was, he was just so lonely he wanted to make "friends" stay with him. He tried to stop a couple of times or took actions that should have meant he wouldn't couldn't kill in a certain place (like moving in with grandma) but it still had a hold of him. He was very cruel and tortured his victims but its his after crime behavior that showed how sick he was. And unlike most serial killers he seemed to recognize that he was batshit abnormal.

The interviews with Dahmer and his father showed him trying to come to grips with what he had done.

I don't feel sorry for the serial killer part of him but the piece of him that knew how sick he was and the boy he was before he grew into it

ITA. I read up on him last night, in more detail than I had before, and was amazed that by the end of it I didn't despise him as much as when I had started reading! He did have a part in his soul that was not sick and that understood what he had done, and regretted it. I felt sorry for him. He almost seems like a victim himself, a victim of his own inner demons. It was a disturbing read! The things he did, unbelievable that someone would be capable to do something like that. True horror.

 

[Ausgirl]

It's devastating to me that innocent little children can grow up to be so evil. Every killer I read about, I spare a thought for the child they were, and the man or woman they -could- have been..

Dahmer.. well. He often had direct opportunities to turn himself in and did not. Idk about that man. He wasn't quite as gormless and remorseful as he made out, imo, and while I am sure he had moments of regretting what he was, if not what he did (he did keep trophies, after all..) he also lied bald-faced to the police about that one boy who nearly got away, for example (the one the cops gave back to him..:facepalm: ) to evade arrest, so I think he he could be very manipulative and glib when he wanted to.

Guh, sorry for the OT post, but Dahmer is so interesting to talk about.

 

[Elainera]

Oh I'm sure he was glib and manipulative. The remorse probably only came later after he was arrested.

 

[Frannie]

Translation of Paris-Match article dated November 7, 2013

After the discovery of bones in Antibes, many questions remain unanswered.

We learned on Wednesday that bones were found last February off Cap d'Antibes. Among these, a humerus which after DNA analysis was shown to belong to Stéphane Hirson, a young man who disappeared nearly 20 years ago from a Parisian suburb. DNA tests revealed that the other bomes - a femur, a skull, two humerus and a piece of mandible belonged to two men and two women. The skull had very disturbing words written in indelible ink on the forehead: "death to pedophile". According to the paper "Le Parisien" the skull also had a drawing of a shooting target.

The article goes on to review the details of his disappearance among them no connections to the gay milieu, no connections to the south of France nor to Cap d'Antibes. The family learned through the newspapers about the discovery. His mother currently lives in Spain.

 

[Snoods]

Translation of Paris-Match article dated November 7, 2013

After the discovery of bones in Antibes, many questions remain unanswered.

We learned on Wednesday that bones were found last February off Cap d'Antibes. Among these, a humerus which after DNA analysis was shown to belong to Stéphane Hirson, a young man who disappeared nearly 20 years ago from a Parisian suburb. DNA tests revealed that the other bomes - a femur, a skull, two humerus and a piece of mandible belonged to two men and two women. The skull had very disturbing words written in indelible ink on the forehead: "death to pedophile". According to the paper "Le Parisien" the skull also had a drawing of a shooting target.

The article goes on to review the details of his disappearance among them no connections to the gay milieu, no connections to the south of France nor to Cap d'Antibes. The family learned through the newspapers about the discovery. His mother currently lives in Spain.

OMG I didn't know that, how awful. How unimaginably painful for them to read in a newspaper that a single bone of their child missing for 20 years was found.