Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[jjenny]

Let us not forget: a prescription is needed for all the equipment the transfer critical care team needs, prescriptions for "sugar water" and vasopressin, etc etc, a full time attending physician- and a critical care team and facility.


Judge Grillo stated that there will not be an extension in the last order, so I guess they will have to go over his head

And she is brain dead. Which most likely means insurance won't be paying for any of it.
And very unlikely any facility will actually take her.

 

[Karmady]

Let us not forget: a prescription is needed for all the equipment the transfer critical care team needs, prescriptions for "sugar water" and vasopressin, etc etc, a full time attending physician- and a critical care team and facility.


Judge Grillo stated that there will not be an extension in the last order, so I guess they will have to go over his head

They will file an appeal in state court on monday, imo. And it will all be done quietly and privately...or not. jmo

 

[otto]

The Dec 23 assessment from Dr Fisher stated that there was no apnea, which I understand to mean that when the ventilator was turned off, the child did not breath. I wonder how a nurse could have difficulties understanding the implications of no apnea.

 

[J1981]

Once again, Chapman is an LVN, not an RN.



She has substantially less education than an RN, and vastly less experience than the PICU RN's. She would not be qualified to evaluate much more than blood pressure, heart rate, temp, and respirations. She is certainly not capable of doing a neurologic examination. Any information she has about Jahi's current functional state is only from a very superficial observation and is not based in fact.



Although I'm sure she is good at what she does, she is not a reliable source for reporting on the neurologic function level of the child.

I know she's an LVN but that's still a nurse right? Not being snarky, just wondering.

 

[otto]

I know she's an LVN but that's still a nurse right? Not being snarky, just wondering.

So she is a licensed vocational nurse? I think it's understandable that media could get that wrong. That might also explain why the grandmother doesn't understand that no apnea means that the patient is incapable of breathing.

 

[J1981]

Just to keep the facts straight, do you have a link because the following articles says otherwise?







http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jahi-mcmaths-family-faces-monday-life-support-deadline/







http://www.ibtimes.com/jahi-mcmath-...rl-ventilation-another-week-family-fights-her







http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/30/jahi-mcmath-removed-from-life-support-monday_n_4518574.html







http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/1...hospital-ordered-to-keep-her-on-life-support/

I'm impressed with all of your links! A thread back there was discussion about the RN vs LVN and it was found that she is an LVN. Which is scary that so many different news outlets are reporting otherwise. But then again to the layperson (myself included prior to this case), it can be hard to understand the difference.

 

[Herat]

I know she's an LVN but that's still a nurse right? Not being snarky, just wondering.

"Nurse" is a slightly ambiguous term. Technically and LVN is a nurse, but not a registered nurse, or RN.

A PhD can technically be called a "doctor" but a PhD is not an MD and cannot act as a physician, as can an MD or DO.

 

[iluvmua]

The family also had to know that she was high risk if the doctors wanted her in the ICU after surgery.

jmo

 

[justmechels]

I'm impressed with all of your links! A thread back there was discussion about the RN vs LVN and it was found that she is an LVN. Which is scary that so many different news outlets are reporting otherwise. But then again to the layperson (myself included prior to this case), it can be hard to understand the difference.

Hi all, I have been following this since the beginning, read all the threads, but this is my first post. Nursing licenses are public record in CA and I was able to look up the grandmother's name under both RN and LVN, the only thing that came back with a record of her holding a license was as an LVN.
<modsnip>
Neither of which need an account to use.
Edited to say oops, I see others have beat me to this, I guess I needed to refresh one more time before posting, sorry!

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I'm not sure whether the statements made by the family members of Jahi responding to their voices, is to garner sympathy for a further extension, denial or both.

I would have to firmly disagree, that this is their way of going through the grieving process. I think this is their way of avoiding reality and it's prolonging the grieving process, which is furthered by those that are giving false hope and have monetary agendas.

I would be interested to hear a credentialed grief counselors opinion.

 

[ljwf22]

I know she's an LVN but that's still a nurse right? Not being snarky, just wondering.

"
Job Duties

• LVNs are entry-level professionals, who work under the supervision of RNs and physicians. LVNs perform routine nursing tasks. They make sure that patients are comfortable and help them dress, eat, move and complete personal hygiene routines. LVNs also take and record patients’ vital statistics, such as their temperature and blood pressure, and report any changes in their health to doctors. In addition to routine nursing tasks, RNs complete higher-level duties under doctors’ directions. For example, RNs may record patients’ medical histories and symptoms, conduct and analyze certain diagnostic tests, administer treatment and medications, and assist patients with rehabilitation. RNs also provide advice and education to patients and their families about ways to manage their health conditions.
  
  

Education

• To become RNs in California, individuals must complete a nursing program approved by the California Board of Registered Nursing. They can enroll in four-year programs to earn bachelor’s of science degrees in nursing or two- or three-year programs to obtain associate degrees in nursing. Persons who have bachelor’s degrees in another field can enter entry-level programs in nursing, which take one or two years to complete, to earn master’s degrees.
  To become LVNs, individuals must complete a vocational nursing program accredited by the California Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric Technicians. Most LVN programs are one year. As of June 2010, persons can substitute 51 months of paid work experience as bedside nurses in general acute care facilities for the educational requirement, as long as they have completed an approved pharmacology course."
  
  

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_6675066_difference-between-rn-lvn-california.html#ixzz2pUp2lHbF

 

[Peliman]

I may have missed it but reposting to keep issues known.

On Friday, the Alameda County coroner issued a death certificate stating that Jahi died on Dec. 12, three days after doctors at Children's Hospital performed a tonsillectomy that led to complications.

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Hospital-agrees-to-let-Jahi-McMath-family-take-5111584.php

 

[nightwatch]

Once again, Chapman is an LVN, not an RN.

She has substantially less education than an RN, and vastly less experience than the PICU RN's. She would not be qualified to evaluate much more than blood pressure, heart rate, temp, and respirations. She is certainly not capable of doing a neurologic examination. Any information she has about Jahi's current functional state is only from a very superficial observation and is not based in fact.

Although I'm sure she is good at what she does, she is not a reliable source for reporting on the neurologic function level of the child.

At this point even the janitor understands this child is dead. Back to sitting on my hands. I'm starting to sound snarky. Moo

Ciao

 

[Montjoy]

A PhD can technically be called a "doctor" but a PhD is not an MD and cannot act as a physician, as can an MD or DO.

OT, but what you wrote is somewhat mistaken. The PhD is a considerably older degree than the MD. Medical professionals took on the 'doctor' title relatively recently as they were envious of its status (there used to be 'bachelors of medicine'), in much the same way that most law schools now award JD degrees rather than LLBs. In some countries, surgeons are still given the title Mr. (or Mrs.) rather than Dr in reference to how the first surgeons were barbers (as they had the blades necessary to cut flesh). So, it would be more accurate to say that a medical professional could technically be called a 'doctor', even though s/he isn't a PhD.

 

[A.D.A McCoy]

It's my opinion. Whether or not one thinks they are dignified should not, imo, turn on my opinion.jmo

I never said it turned on YOUR opinion. Let me clarify. I thanked you for reminding me that this 'undignified' family is in pain, and perhaps deserves some respect, instead of being smeared because some people are so sure they would handle the same situation with so much grace. jmo, of course.

 

[Karmady]

I never said it turned on YOUR opinion. Let me clarify. I thanked you for reminding me that this 'undignified' family is in pain, and perhaps deserves some respect, instead of being smeared because some people are so sure they would handle the same situation with so much grace. jmo, of course.

gotcha No worries.

 

[Herat]

OT, but what you wrote is somewhat mistaken. The PhD is a considerably older degree than the MD. Medical professionals took on the 'doctor' title relatively recently as they were envious of its status (there used to be 'bachelors of medicine'), in much the same way that most law schools now award JD degrees rather than LLBs. In some countries, surgeons are still given the title Mr. (or Mrs.) rather than Dr in reference to how the first surgeons were barbers (as they had the blades necessary to cut flesh). So, it would be more accurate to say that a medical professional could technically be called a 'doctor', even though s/he isn't a PhD.

Well we could get into all sorts of technicalities about DVM, DDS, Jd, etc.

My comment was only meant to show the similarities in assumptions for lay people in using the terms "nurses" and "doctors".

 

[MEN3C]

OT, but what you wrote is somewhat mistaken. The PhD is a considerably older degree than the MD. Medical professionals took on the 'doctor' title relatively recently as they were envious of its status (there used to be 'bachelors of medicine'), in much the same way that most law schools now award JD degrees rather than LLBs. In some countries, surgeons are still given the title Mr. (or Mrs.) rather than Dr in reference to how the first surgeons were barbers (as they had the blades necessary to cut flesh). So, it would be more accurate to say that a medical professional could technically be called a 'doctor', even though s/he isn't a PhD.

This is all semantics but the word doctor means 'teacher of teachers'. The earliest doctoral degrees were in theology, law and medicine. The PhD as a doctor came into being a little later and it was awarded initially only for philosophy. As for MBBS (a bachelors level degree) at is still given in many countries as an initial licence but in most of those countries, after additional studying/research/qualifications, you are able to get an MD (a doctoral level degree).

A more apt (and one that's used quite often) title is that of physician as that describes the job title rather than the degree.


(not that any of this matters in real life...it is the difference between an academic doctorate vs. a professional doctorate).

 

[txsvicki]

Lvn's do the same job duties as an RN around here, except for hanging blood and giving chemo drugs, which they can be trained to do as well. RN's have about one extra year of clinicals and classroom. Of course, I'm sure it gets more advanced with degrees and training to work in ICU's.

 

[ljwf22]

To justmechels and Santa:
:welcome4: :welcome: