I still have an open mind as to how this happened and who did it

[Tawny]

Pretty much unless they don't live with them. This is a little girl, Not a teen. If she was a teen there is more in the mix but a 6 yr old, Yep. Mothers know their kids.

Well, PR had nannies who took care of her kids, it's been stated that she barely paid attention to either of them, and you're making a blanket statement that simply isn't true. Even mothers who don't have nannies can find themselves completely unawares of what is happening with their own kids. Have you never heard of a child abuse case in which the mother was completely unaware?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Well, PR had nannies who took care of her kids, it's been stated that she barely paid attention to either of them, and you're making a blanket statement that simply isn't true. Even mothers who don't have nannies can find themselves completely unawares of what is happening with their own kids. Have you never heard of a child abuse case in which the mother was completely unaware?

Stated by whom and with what proof?

 

[Tawny]

I'm not playing this obtuse game with you again, Scarlett. You've been around these parts for far too long to not have read or seen all of the witness accounts regarding PR's interaction (or lack thereof) with her own children.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm not playing this obtuse game with you again, Scarlett. You've been around these parts for far too long to not have read or seen all of the witness accounts regarding PR's interaction (or lack thereof) with her own children.

It is not obtuse. You stated that its been stated she ignored the kids. I am asking for evidence and proof. Nothing more. Who is the source of that?

 

[Tawny]

No disrespect intended, but I am not going to go digging around to find something that you will dismiss out of hand immediately as being "biased" and "unfounded."

You won't take the words of Kolar as credible, how am I to expect you'll be open the words and opinions of their friends and acquaintances?

 

[Mama2JML]

It is not obtuse. You stated that its been stated she ignored the kids. I am asking for evidence and proof. Nothing more. Who is the source of that?

I don't think it was Shirley Brady:

"'In the three years I was in that house, there was never an argument, never voices raised,' Brady said.

That's why Brady, 72, says she never has wavered in her belief that the Ramseys are innocent - even though they have always been suspects in the girl's murder.

...

Pam Griffin, a seamstress who made JonBenet's pageant costumes, said the Ramseys had a loving relationship with their daughter.

'And then there was all the love in JonBenet's eyes when she spoke to her father,' Griffin said. 'Everything he said was important to her.'

Those kinds of memories don't surprise Brady. She said the Ramsey family were thoughtful of each other and very loving.

'The public never met the Ramseys, so they jump to these horrible conclusions that just aren't true,' Brady said. 'They were a loving family who never could have hurt each other. I know that is the truth.'"

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon101599g.htm

 

[MeanDonnaJean]

Even mothers who don't have nannies can find themselves completely unawares of what is happening with their own kids. Have you never heard of a child abuse case in which the mother was completely unaware?

I must agree with Tawny here. I hate to even admit this but I am livin' proof of that sad fact.

 

[MeanDonnaJean]

Pretty much unless they don't live with them. This is a little girl, Not a teen. If she was a teen there is more in the mix but a 6 yr old, Yep. Mothers know their kids.

Not ALWAYS, Scarlett...and I'm personally speakin' about an 8 year old girl. It may not be the rule but it can, and it DOES, happen.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't think it was Shirley Brady:

"'In the three years I was in that house, there was never an argument, never voices raised,' Brady said.

That's why Brady, 72, says she never has wavered in her belief that the Ramseys are innocent - even though they have always been suspects in the girl's murder.

...

Pam Griffin, a seamstress who made JonBenet's pageant costumes, said the Ramseys had a loving relationship with their daughter.

'And then there was all the love in JonBenet's eyes when she spoke to her father,' Griffin said. 'Everything he said was important to her.'

Those kinds of memories don't surprise Brady. She said the Ramsey family were thoughtful of each other and very loving.

'The public never met the Ramseys, so they jump to these horrible conclusions that just aren't true,' Brady said. 'They were a loving family who never could have hurt each other. I know that is the truth.'"

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon101599g.htm

This is what I am getting at. I hear "stories" and opinions from books but I am looking for real info from people who were in the house and knew them well.
I am trying to find factual evidence for reports and rumors.

I find most times the more I search the more facts turn out to be opinion.

ETA:
For me this is about finding the roots of the case. I have heard and read so much over time that proves just not to be true. I don't want to hear that something was reported in a book. I want to know who said, when they said, to whom they said it and what are their motives in this case before I place it in a category to weigh it for consideration. Many may think that this makes me difficult but honestly, I am just trying to be thorough.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think it was Shirley Brady:

"'In the three years I was in that house, there was never an argument, never voices raised,' Brady said.

That's why Brady, 72, says she never has wavered in her belief that the Ramseys are innocent - even though they have always been suspects in the girl's murder.

...

Pam Griffin, a seamstress who made JonBenet's pageant costumes, said the Ramseys had a loving relationship with their daughter.

'And then there was all the love in JonBenet's eyes when she spoke to her father,' Griffin said. 'Everything he said was important to her.'

Those kinds of memories don't surprise Brady. She said the Ramsey family were thoughtful of each other and very loving.

'The public never met the Ramseys, so they jump to these horrible conclusions that just aren't true,' Brady said. 'They were a loving family who never could have hurt each other. I know that is the truth.'"

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon101599g.htm

Come ON, folks. How often do we have to hear stories like this? Just about EVERY murderer is able to snow somebody!

 

[BBB167893]

The autopsy report contains no description of healing vaginal injuries, indicative of sexual abuse. ...no observation of 'healing' abrasions, cuts, tears, etc. noted in the AR.

Odd how the experts disagree, isn't it?

 

[BBB167893]

The answer to that question is obvious. Yes, they are. I would say that anyone who has thoroughly studied this case and is still IDI falls in that category. Why? Because there is enough evidence there to show that the parents knew what they should not know afterwards, and this blows IDI out of the water, but IDI proponents refuse to even see those things, or if they do see them refuse to admit they have any significance. Some of us actually want to solve this crime, which is why it is sad to see us arguing if even the most basic evidence exists simply because IDI proponents won't admit to anything that could point to RDI. I'm done trying to convince them.

I know what you mean, Anyhoo. I'm just about fed up myself. I'm getting too old for this.

 

[BBB167893]

:sigh:

Expert Opinion. Cyril Wecht, along with 4 other doctors concurred that the injury to hymen "dated from an old injury," including Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of CO Health Sciences Center; Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital); Dr. John McCann (see below); and Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois (Schiller 1999:437 according to Internet poster The Punisher). Forensic pathologist Robert Kirschner also said that the injuries to JonBenet were consistent with long-term sexual abuse. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida said she believed JonBenet had been sexually abused over time (Bonita Papers).

Cyril Wecht, MD. Wecht's detailed analysis of the autopsy report explains the forensic evidence supporting his view there had been prior sexual abuse.

Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.
1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."
Alternative Version of Statement. www.stewwebb.com contains a different wording for what Dr. Kirschner is alleged to have said: "Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department went even further, pointing out that her vaginal opening was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. He stated, "The genital injuries indicate penetration, not only (previously) by a penis, but by another instrument and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested" [highlighting of word differences added].

John McCann, MD Clinical Professor of Medicine, Dept of Pediatrics at University of California at Davis.
McCann Assisted BPD. "In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos (Bonita Papers).
General Findings. "According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet" (Bonita Papers).
Specific Evidence of Prior Abuse. "There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia" (Bonita Papers).

Expert Panel. "In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' 'There was chronic abuse'. . .'Past violation of the vagina'. . .'Evidence of both acute and injury and chronic sexual abuse.' In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault, but with a child who was being physically abused." (Thomas 2000a:253; quote and source provided by Internet poster The Punisher).

"DR. MCCANN

In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation."


These are from a candy rose and the pbworks sites. Both have experts stating the finding of chronic sexual abuse.
I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse.

Damn, Venom, you beat me to it!

 

[dazeerae]

Frequently JB made visits to the school nurse, on Monday. What was going on over the weekend, that would have caused this?
If only PR's friends had even able to have an intervention with her, this may have been avoided, but when approached by PW, she refused, and said that nobody knew more about her daughter than she did, because she was the Mother

Can someone elaborate on the PW intervention? I have not heard this story.

As far as a mother knowing more about her child...as a child of the repressed, religious south, I can say that denial runs deep & dark family secrets stay buried no matter the cost.

 

[Mama2JML]

Odd how the experts disagree, isn't it?

I've sourced Spitz analysis, the FBI analysis, and scientifically validated research. I would not debate the issue if the consensus was clear.

 

[Mama2JML]

Can someone elaborate on the PW intervention? I have not heard this story.

As far as a mother knowing more about her child...as a child of the repressed, religious south, I can say that denial runs deep & dark family secrets stay buried no matter the cost.

From the CW v. Rs suit, the deposition of Steve Thomas:

Q. Take a look at page 58 for me. I don't think I have asked you this. "Some friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59. "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair. It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and some friends had planned to have a talk about it with Patsy after Christmas." Who were the friends that were concerned about how JonBenet was being groomed, identify those for me?

A. On the record this was per Barb Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla White and a third party.

Q. Who was the third party?

A. I don't know.

Q. Were they the same people that had planned to have a talk about it with Patsy after Christmas?

A. That was my understanding and, again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.

Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet thing, whose phrase was that?

A. Barb Fernie.

 

[BBB167893]

This excerpt, from PMPT, is also available @ ACR:

"Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenet's vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards. Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator's finger before he or she penetrated JonBenet vaginally. It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her.

If the cellulose did, in fact, come from the paintbrush, then most probably the 'garrote' had been assembled before JonBenet was violated. Since there was some evidence of vaginal bleeding, it was also logical to assume that the child had already been strangled but was not yet dead when she was penetrated. Consistent with penetration of a female child of JonBenet's age, her hymen was torn. In such a case, the edges are pulled away and recede quickly, creating a visible difference between a torn and an intact hymen. Photographs of her injured hymen taken at the autopsy indicated to some experts a recent tear, fresh bleeding, and no healing. Logic suggested that JonBenet had been penetrated almost concurrently with her death.

There remained the question whether JonBenet had also been penetrated-that is, sexually abused-previously. Here the experts disagreed. Dr. David Jones said the child's vagina showed a history of abuse, since the cellulose dated from an old injury. Dr. Spitz, however, said there was no clear indication of prior penetration and that the cellulose dated from the injury that had taken place around her time of death." (Schiller, 1999)

Look again, Mama2JML. These passages are referring to the injury inflicted on JB the night she was killed. Not previous injuries.

 

[gramcracker]

[snip]

PETER BOYLES: How long did you work for John and Patsy Ramsey?

LINDA WILCOX: Approximately 2 1/2 years. I left September 4, 1995.

PETER BOYLES: You contacted me after the Boulder Police contacted you. You've spoken with them, now it's been 20 months. Why did you call me and why did you want to have this meeting?

LINDA WILCOX: One, I keep hearing a lot of little things, misconceptions, that I wanted to clear up. The other, I personally have a very hard time with the Ramseys going on national television, blatantly lying and not having anyone speak up to contradict what they are saying.

PETER BOYLES: An example?

LINDA WILCOX: An example, when John Ramsey says to the camera, I didn't know she wet the bed, or not very much. I happen to know myself, he walked upstairs, she had wet her bed, I came in on a Monday morning and he said, "could you change her bed? She's wet it again." The thing that strikes me as odd, I knew her between 2 1/2 and 4. During that time, she did wet the bed but it wasn't chronic. It was every now and then. Early on, I mean 2 1/2 year olds always do, I mean it seems like they always have accidents. But, it got progressively worse. I would think that a 6 year old would wet the bed less than a 4 year old or a 2 year old. It actually got worse, it was moderate, she didn't have rubber sheets at that point, a pull-up would hold it. But her and Burke both wet the bed. Burke was 7 years old and he also wet the bed. I didn't think it was odd at the time, because it sometimes runs in families and it's more common in boys. And, their parents were lazy.

[snip]

PETER BOYLES: You told me in another conversation, I dont' want to put words in your mouth, that JonBenet took a bottle really late in life.

LINDA WILCOX: She was in Nursery School. She was about 3 1/2 or 4. Suzanne, the nanny, was trying to break her from the bottle. It was, she turned 4 that august and that summer she pretty much broken from it. But, she was 3 years old, she was going to nursery school and she... Suzanne used to threaten that she was going to tell her nursery school friends that she was still using a bottle to get her to stop because she was way too old to be using one. Um, she wasn't a good sleeper. She didn't sleep well and John, in particular, would get frustrated with her trying to get her to bed and he would put her to bed with a bottle and a video.

[snip]

Like, JonBenet, for example. She got no affection at all when she was little except maybe from their nanny. Until she started to perform or produce, she was basically ignored. At one point, John was complaining because he had to get her dressed one morning because Suzanne had been out of town. He couldn't find any clothes that matched. The reason was, she was wearing cast-offs from Burke because she didn't have any clothes of her own.

PETER BOYLES: We look at so many photos and videos of this child wearing adult, woman sexy costumes, you know something about some Halloween costumes.

LINDA WILCOX: This particular Halloween costume, it was the Halloween, it would have been 1994 probably. Yeah, the Halloween of '94. And she had this, it was actually kind of cute, it was this little witches costume but it wasn't your standard, you know, black dress, pointy hat, it had orange criss-cross striping and it had a little cape. You know most little kids would say, you know, she said I'm gonna be a witch for halloween but I'm not going to be a bad witch. I'm going to be a good, sexy witch. And this is from the voice of a 4-year-old.

PETER BOYLES: She said, a good, sexy witch at 4?

LINDA WILCOX: It was a witch costume. Most kids would have just said, you know, I'm not a bad witch, I'm a good witch. But her mom is there and then Patsy walked in the room and said, "Yeah, she's gonna be a sexy witch."

[snip]
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm

Mothers do know their kids. We know when they are really hurting, or lonely or in pain or being dramatic or just want attention.

mothers also value their kids as child support checks and tax deductions. mothers also run for the local school board while abusing their kids and allowing others to abuse them as well

there are all kinds of mothers in this world. and in this case, the mother was a doozy and the father stood by clucking his tongue and permitting some very odd behavior. money doesn't guarantee insulation from laziness, poor hygiene, poorly defined boundaries, and legitimizing inappropriate behavior(s)

 

[BBB167893]

I've sourced Spitz analysis, the FBI analysis, and scientifically validated research. I would not debate the issue if the consensus was clear.

Whether you would or not is neither here nor there, Mama2JML. These analyses are nothing I haven't heard before.

 

[Meara]

Can someone elaborate on the PW intervention? I have not heard this story.

As far as a mother knowing more about her child...as a child of the repressed, religious south, I can say that denial runs deep & dark family secrets stay buried no matter the cost.

Hi dazeerae. These are things happening in two different time frames. As you'll see in the thread, PW, Barb Fernie, and one other person planned to talk with Patsy about the "mega-JonBenet thing" after Christmas. The other episode took place in Atlanta at the time of the funeral, in Nedra's living room. Here's Patsy's description from the 1998 interview:


13 So anyway, I didn't want to think
14 too much about it, and then when we were in
15 Atlanta, I just sort of remember Priscilla
16 standing in my mother's living room, family
17 room, you know, just kind of like this and
18 saying, "well, I know what's going on" and she
19 said, "if you would give me a few minutes of
20 your time, I could let you in on some things."
21 And I turned to her and I said,
22 "Priscilla, how can you know so much?" And I
23 said, "I am the mother of this child. And I
24 know nothing."
25 TOM HANEY: What was she referring
0076
1 to?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.