Trial Discussion Thread #31

[minor4th]

You must admit that the arguing she heard almost certainly came from Oscar's house.

I am sure the DT would have tried to find a female neighbour who was arguing (and screaming :wink: ) that night in a nearby house but couldn't find one.

No I don't agree to that because the witness herself said she had no idea where it came from. She couldn't even say for sure it was arguing because she only heard one voice, didn't know what was was being said.

It might have been Reeva and it might not have been. It does lend something to the states case, but not a whole lot IMO, all things considered

 

[Feynman]

Partial quote:

ETA: I also remember him giving the double tap scenario - which did turn out to be a mistake, as Nel doggedly pointed out

This is not just a "mistake" IMO. Roux very clearly stated "That is the version of the accused; it was two double taps." That is the version of the accused. Let us pause on that for a bit. It is a remarkable statement by the DT. How many times during testimony did either side say "this is our version"?

Then a few days later, Roux comes back to the court, sheepishly, beaten, and says "we withdraw the double tap bit" - or something like that. Amazing moment! Nel pounced on this, asking the judge to allow re ex of witnesses given this development. (I can’t remember what the judge said in response.)

Now think about this: OP takes the stand after the double-tap fiasco and now he’s all “accident” and “I didn’t intend to fire” and such. This is the opposite of double tap. With double-tap you’ve got to be intentional. As Mangena said, this is a competition-level ability for elite shooters, probably requiring serious focus.

WTF is going on? My only explanation is that Roux and co. have an seriously addled, erratic client, who orders “double tap” and then jerks them back to “let’s go involuntary” etc. It’s unbelievable to me that Roux hadn’t mapped out what he thought was a complete, optimal strategy for his client by the time of the trial. Roux is not stupid. No way would he have advised a “not guilty” strategy re Tasha’s, then a double-tap experiment in the middle of the trial, only to rescind it abjectly later, then on to “I didn’t intend to fire” and all that. This is not Roux. This is OP, and Roux cannot go against his client’s wishes.

This is just a theory, but I can’t help but think it explains something critical.

 

[jay-jay]

"Likely scenarios" are ok for defence... not so good for prosecution.
Prosecution have this "Burden" to prove their case "Beyond reasonable doubt"

It is the defense who have the luxury of just raising REASONABLE doubt... that's the rules

Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway, because the PT have got much more damning evidence than this .. actual, hard evidence, from what I can make out.

 

[minor4th]

That's exactly it. I finally found the root of it all. Roux implied Reeva's injuries precluded her from screaming - specifically citing brain damage - and Nel objected, strongly. He asked that a quote from the ballistics report be read. He contended that the 4th shot was the shot to the head, allowing Reeva to have time to scream during the shots.



So the implication that she couldn't scream during the gunshots or Burger couldn't have heard Reeva's final scream was certainly there by most accounts, to include WSers and reporters alike. You, however, argued it that same day. Such a lawyer!



If anyone's curious it was Michelle Burger, under cross, March 4th. I'd link but it took me about 372 to put together the particulars. I knew I remembered it but could not recall the details.

Most importantly, are you saying I'm right? :lol:

 

[beach]

Mod note:

Guys, I've got a project for y'all that I've been trying to find time to implement since Monday. The intention is to give us something relevant and productive to do while Court is dark. Bessie & I have put a lot of work & time into it and I am determined to get the details up later tonight so we can start working on it no later than tomorrow.

We'll never get it done if we are continually having to referee in here. I have had it "up to HERE" with the baiting, bickering, fielding alerts that are solely intended to target those with differing opinions. The mod team in here has over 16 yrs. combined experience - we're very familiar with the patterns.

The behavior in here has been deplorable lately and you guys all know it. Stop it. Please.

There is no excuse whatsoever for not acting like civil, respectful adults.

I will not stop what I'm doing re. the project again to come babysit this thread. I will simply close it until I'm done.

 

[Rumpole]

The only things that had to have happened after the gunshots at about 03:16 to 03:17 are:

a) OP breaks open the door (if it's already damaged by the bat this takes a few seconds);
b) He drags Reeva out of the toilet (again this takes seconds not minutes, remember no prints of him sitting or standing in the blood only lifting-and-dragging marks into the bathroom)
c) He gets his phone (the one he smuggled out of the crime scene) and this is what we find:
03:18:45 – GPRS – 75 seconds
03:19:03 – Outgoing call to 2251 (Johan Stander) – 24 seconds
03:20:02 – GPRS – 79 seconds
03:20:05 – Outgoing call to 082911 (ambulance service) – 66 seconds
03:21:22 – GPRS – 61 seconds
03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds (a misdial?)
03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds (a misdial?)
03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security)

d) He picks her up and carries her down the stairs.

I have a question for you.

If he shot her at shortly after 03:00 why did the frantic texting and calling only start at 03:18:45? Because before that the only other phone activity was at 01:48:48 – GPRS – 309 seconds – tower closest to Oscar’s house.

So... did he have the bat with him in one hand, gun in the other hand as he chased Reeva into the toilet (on his stumps). Did he have his legs with him too... one tucked under either arm as he chased her with gun in one hand, bat in the other? Even so... he still had to pause and put his legs on after the shots....sooner or later. He did have to make the three phone calls.. It really does not make sense (Nel Test).

I don't think he shot at 3:00. I think 3:10/3:12

 

[jilly]

Or she could be wondering why Reeva didn't get out of there.... I'm sure we'll find out one day. I was just surmising btw

It appears Oscar second guessed the assessor's question. He said Reeva would have had access to the remote but he didn't know whether she knew how to activate the alarm.

 

[jay-jay]

"Beyond Reasonable doubt".. means that often, in many cases that it is the defense's job to offer reasonable alternative explanations to what the State contends? That is partially what the Judicial system requires.
Not any old alternative of course... Roux can not simply propose that an alien space craft was passing by playing a recording of a woman's voice, but it is reasonable to propose that a woman was raising her voice in some other house. Roux raised the point and Van Der Merwe could not say for certain that the voice came from OP's house. Standard cross examination.

You can state anecdotally YOUR experience of domestic arguments.. but that aint evidence of anything that happened in this case. That is not the sort of thing that would be considered as evidence at a trial. If Nel wanted to go there he would need perhaps people who work as counselors, marriage guidance etc to put before the court evidence of how an argument might play out.... and that IMO would still be a bit iffy as evidence of what happened in this case.

By the way, I would appreciate if you didn't use my experience of domestic abuse back at me like that (shouting/caps, etc). Thanks.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Not one witness testified to hearing a cricket bat. You're Gestalt is 100% wrong.

Woman screaming in terror, and man and a woman's voice, followed by gunshots is their testimony.

No matter how many hundreds of post you make trying to say that wasn't their testimony, it doesn't change the fact that's what the witnesses said.

I'm sure you'll try again though, and I'm sure that it won't change what the witnesses said.

if i hear "gunshots>> screams >>> cricket bat" once more... i will scream like a woman.

 

[soozieqtips]

We have to play nice with each other or else the thread will be closed, and I don't think any of us wants that.

I would have to have a :tantrum: or three.

 

[Rumpole]

Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway, because the PT have got much more damning evidence than this .. actual, hard evidence, from what I can make out.

Ya reckon?

PT have rested their case... and I missed it

I really do not think the PT have proved beyond reasonable doubt that OP shot KNOWING that Reeva was behind the door. There is still a LOT they could have proved... but they have not focused on that, so I am not sure how much the Judge will have got of that. It is NOT the Judges job (I would think) to be looking through the evidence to find points that the PT could have made.

The defense have a dozen or more witnesses to come.

 

[Carmelita]

Well there are a load of posts for me to catch up on and maybe this has already been addressed.

Am I the only person that thinks Oscar’s whining and emotional voice is often very feminine in nature? The more emotional he gets the higher his voice gets IMO. If I did not know it was a man and just heard a recording of his crying voice I would not wager either way if the voice was coming from a man or woman. I can’t imagine what he would sound like running about his home, gun in hand, thinking there was an intruder in his house.

 

[Rumpole]

Not one witness testified to hearing a cricket bat. You're Gestalt is 100% wrong.

Woman screaming in terror, and man and a woman's voice, followed by gunshots is their testimony.

No matter how many hundreds of post you make trying to say that wasn't their testimony, it doesn't change the fact that's what the witnesses said.

I'm sure you'll try again though, and I'm sure that it won't change what the witnesses said.

Gestalt means (roughly) looking at the whole picture. In this case all of the STATE evidence:

Two events KNOWN to produce loud bangs.
Two sets of bangs heard
State expert stating gunshots were first
Every witness that heard screams heard them after time of first bangs AND before time of second bangs.

Take that lot, and combine---->Gestalt

Gunshots-----> screams---> cricket bat

 

[Bazinga]

As I have said before.... independent of OP's "version".Put that to one side totally.

After the shots there was stuff that HAD to have happened. I have outlined some of it (many times) There is simply no time.

I am reluctant to repeat it all. It just gets countered with never ending "What ifs" that STILL do not explain all that had to have happened in just a few minutes.

Putting Oscar's version to one side (or in the rubbish bin :wink
I can easily see him getting Reeva out of the toilet and to the top of the stairs as the Standers arrived. The door panel is already broken and he has identified its Reeva. Phone calls while taking a moment to put prosthetic legs on, (if they weren't already on) a few seconds to grab the key from of the inside lock and open the toilet room door, a minute to drag Reeva out. Run to unlock the front door and panic for a moment, then back upstairs to pick up her up and walk 15 or so metres. I don't need any what ifs to make this work.

After Oscar's call to Stander he and his daughter were there at Oscar's house within about 5 minutes. It is very reasonable to believe that in that same amount of time Oscar simply got Reeva from the toilet room to the top of the stairs.

I think there is still available time for some other actions.

 

[soozieqtips]

The thing is, if OP has slipped up a couple of times during testimony, I could understand that. It would be natural. What I wasn't expecting was the ease with which he lies. Or how comfortable he is calling other people liars. Or how if he's not calling them liars, he's shifting the blame onto them for something he did. Or how he can steadfastly deny a proven fact (he had to have pulled that trigger in Tasha's). The very fact he can do all this stuff under oath and with no conscience whatsoever about lying, must surely give the Judge some serious concerns about whether any of his testimony can reasonably possibly be true.

 

[liesbeth]

So... did he have the bat with him in one hand, gun in the other hand as he chased Reeva into the toilet (on his stumps). Did he have his legs with him too... one tucked under either arm as he chased her with gun in one hand, bat in the other? Even so... he still had to pause and put his legs on after the shots....sooner or later. He did have to make the three phone calls.. It really does not make sense (Nel Test).

I don't think he shot at 3:00. I think 3:10/3:12

AFAIK the 03:12 was from Mr. Johnson's notes where Roux said there was a woman screaming at 03:12. Unless I missed another reference?

Baba said that shortly after 03:00 a guard reported shots. Mrs. Stipp looked at her clock and it was 03:02 (3-4 minutes fast. Shortly after that she heard the first set of sounds.)

Your other question was what had to have happened after the shots at 03:16-03:17.

The things you mention here (the bat, the legs, the gun) could all have happened between the two sets of sounds.

They argue.
She's locks herself in the toilet.
He gets a bat.
He hits the door and makes a hole/holes in the wood in the process.
(Witnesses hear the first set of "shots." Willow wood on a Meranti door.)
(They also hear terrified screams.)
He goes to the bedroom.
He puts on his legs.
He gets the gun.
He goes back to the bathroom.
(Witnesses hear the intensity and fear in the screams escalate.)
He shoots her through the door.
(Witnesses hear the second set of "shots.")
(Witnesses hear the screaming stop.)
He uses the tip of the bat as a lever to crack the door then breaks it open with his hands. The straight crack runs through bullet hole D.
He drags her into the bathroom.
At 03:18:45 the texting and phoning starts.
After the 03:22 call he carries her down the stairs.
She dies on or at the bottom of the stairs.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Helen75 made some excellent points.
As I covered in my reply to her, I accept what she presented, and it does cast doubts on the shots being as early as some witnesses seem to indicate. However I have NEVER been happy with that time being as early as 3:00.
Stipps was "on the ball" and after first bangs he was getting ready to assist and on phone when he heard second set of bangs. I do not think Stipps was hanging about for 17 minutes before phoning, and so with second bangs set at 3:17 I have always assumed that first ones were closer to 3:10, 3:12

I did ask Helen75 how that time would sit with blood pulse evidence.

I have to repeat what I have said before... Nel's Contention that shots were at 3:17 I see as leaving an IMPOSSIBLE sequence of events that must have occurred over the next 5 minutes... when OP met Stander at 3:22.

bbm. what do you see as impossible? five minutes... to remove the door panels, make 4 quick calls. carry the body to the first floor landing.

 

[Bazinga]

The only things that had to have happened after the gunshots at about 03:16 to 03:17 are:

a) OP breaks open the door (if it's already damaged by the bat this takes a few seconds);
b) He drags Reeva out of the toilet (again this takes seconds not minutes, remember no prints of him sitting or standing in the blood only lifting-and-dragging marks into the bathroom)
c) He gets his phone (the one he smuggled out of the crime scene) and this is what we find:
03:18:45 – GPRS – 75 seconds
03:19:03 – Outgoing call to 2251 (Johan Stander) – 24 seconds
03:20:02 – GPRS – 79 seconds
03:20:05 – Outgoing call to 082911 (ambulance service) – 66 seconds
03:21:22 – GPRS – 61 seconds
03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds (a misdial?)
03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds (a misdial?)
03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security)

d) He picks her up and carries her down the stairs.

I have a question for you.

If he shot her at shortly after 03:00 why did the frantic texting and calling only start at 03:18:45? Because before that the only other phone activity was at 01:48:48 – GPRS – 309 seconds – tower closest to Oscar’s house.

Great post! Agree!!

 

[jay-jay]

if i hear "gunshots>> screams >>> cricket bat" once more... i will scream like a woman.

:thumb: :floorlaugh:

 

[Jake18]

As I have said before.... independent of OP's "version".Put that to one side totally.

After the shots there was stuff that HAD to have happened. I have outlined some of it (many times) There is simply no time.

I am reluctant to repeat it all. It just gets countered with never ending "What ifs" that STILL do not explain all that had to have happened in just a few minutes.

But in cross he said Reeva was breathing, when he reached her so he had to have either seen her through a pre existing crack in the door or prised a panel off very quickly. If he was telling the truth about this there was no time for him to be rushing up and down corridors etc because she only breathed a few times after the head shots. I'm not sure what he said when Roux was questioning him though.