Trial Discussion Thread #31

[wb180]

All these arguments about number of witnesses. Five, Four, two, etc.

Fine. Fine. Let's go with TWO witnesses rather than five or four or whatever.

Unless there are other witnesses disputing them, you have TWO witnesses that are credible and independent testifying to that night and that is still not strong evidence? Really??

 

[Rumpole]

Sure it would be good to have some facts and myths so everyone is clear on what the facts are.

I would add another myth - the entire testimony of OP can be relied upon.

Yes I can see it would not be taken seriously and would be just another place to post opinion and "one liners"

I was actually thinking of specific real serious points of evidence, along the lines of what is accepted by both sides and agreed upon in court, together with facts shown by evidence and testimony and no longer in dispute.

 

[wb180]

Yes I can see it would not be taken seriously and would be just another place to post opinion and "one liners"

I was actually thinking of specific real serious points of evidence, along the lines of what is accepted by both sides and agreed upon in court, together with facts shown by evidence and testimony and no longer in dispute.

Sure - always good to get some agreed facts as these threads move so fast it is hard to know the real evidence.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

AFAIK the 03:12 was from Mr. Johnson's notes where Roux said there was a woman screaming at 03:12. Unless I missed another reference?

Baba said that shortly after 03:00 a guard reported shots. Mrs. Stipp looked at her clock and it was 03:02 (3-4 minutes fast. Shortly after that she heard the first set of sounds.)

Your other question was what had to have happened after the shots at 03:16-03:17.

The things you mention here (the bat, the legs, the gun) could all have happened between the two sets of sounds.

They argue.
She's locks herself in the toilet.
He gets a bat.
He hits the door and makes a hole/holes in the wood in the process.
(Witnesses hear the first set of "shots." Willow wood on a Meranti door.)
(They also hear terrified screams.)
He goes to the bedroom.
He puts on his legs.
He gets the gun.
He goes back to the bathroom.
(Witnesses hear the intensity and fear in the screams escalate.)
He shoots her through the door.
(Witnesses hear the second set of "shots.")
(Witnesses hear the screaming stop.)
He uses the tip of the bat as a lever to crack the door then breaks it open with his hands. The straight crack runs through bullet hole D.
He drags her into the bathroom.
At 03:18:45 the texting and phoning starts.
After the 03:22 call he carries her down the stairs.
She dies on or at the bottom of the stairs.

Thanks for your post.
I definitely see this as more of a correct time line .
Mrs stipp's was very clear even during cross exam that the shots were just after the 3.02 time which was actually 2.58 . This being the case 3.00 is right and ties In With other reports.
Mrs stipp's was most particular as she had the digital bedside clock and Baba was working so fully alert to check the time.
There is no way I see the first set of sounds being as late as 3.12. And was a bit confused when I read the timeline thread last night and saw it had been stretched to that .

 

[crasshopper]

The problem with trying to discredit the witnesses is that OP has tried to confirm they heard everything that happened that night.
...

In other words, OP is asking the judge to believe the witnesses described hearing exactly what actually happened from wrongly interpreting sounds they did actually hear that sounded like a woman being murdered, but were actually OP making the exact sounds after(me->or while)he shot Reeva.

Kind of hard to argue with this.

 

[Really?]

haha.....watching OP's furiously taking notes during Michelle Burger's X-exam...with..Nel putting out the states interpretation.....and lol at OP scribbling away on his note pad....fantastic

 

[Rumpole]

All these arguments about number of witnesses. Five, Four, two, etc.

Fine. Fine. Let's go with TWO witnesses rather than five or four or whatever.

Unless there are other witnesses disputing them, you have TWO witnesses that are credible and independent testifying to that night and that is still not strong evidence? Really??

One couple WAS a long way away. And did not come forward for weeks after hearing news reports etc. That evidence is hardly ideal. It indicates desperation on the part of the PT if they were forced to use that evidence.

Lets then go with just ONE couple out of all the near neighbors who heard "a woman scream". Apparently the State asked several others and they stated they did not hear it. Roux read out names of several such witnesses, from the State witness list, who were not called. It was confirmed that NONE heard a woman's screams. I don't know what testimony there will be from neighbors that the Defense has found. I actually think that both the Stipps are good witnesses. I would not reject their testimony in regard what they heard. I would not reject what the Burgers testified to hearing either. I would give it a LOT less weight than evidence from close neighbors, and a LOT less weight than people who gave statements to police soon after the event, rather than weeks later. I would question both couples' INTERPRETATION of what caused the sounds they heard is all. I think the State witnesses confirm OP's version.... taken as a whole, considering State expert testimony and the times we can pin down.

 

[Jake18]

See this doesn't bother me at all.

1) Who besides night owls like myself, is up at 2-3 am?
2) SA is 'dangerous' and OP and his neighbors have paid good money to live in some isolation both for exclusivity and security.
3) How many residents were also sleeping with their windows open? It was a warm muggy night and OP only had the windows open because the AC was broken. I would hazard most people were sleeping with their windows closed.
4) People have highly variable sleep patterns, I can and have slept through a tree crashing through my roof during a hurricane, only to notice it backing the car out of the driveway the next morning. My mother and sisters are exceptionally light sleepers and I was never able the sneak in late undetected in high school.
5) Sound can carry very far in flat, quiet, countryside and OP's bathroom window and possibly balcony doors were open.

I agree with no. 4 especially. Recently I slept through a thunderstorm but awoke the same night to one of the kids coughing quietly.

 

[Jake18]

Before I go for a run - what kind of ear witness accounts would help OP's version? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious. No screaming doesn't help because he screamed.

Edited to say : I mean Oscar says he screamed.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Good morning/afternoon/evening.

Something that was posted on here got me thinking last night whilst running. Running time is thinking time (in fact, it's just a rather desperate attempt to make the kilometers disappear a little faster - and NO, it's never successful but I do it anyways....)

I decided to argue with myself. (I know those voices......tsk tsk I should ignore them) For the first time I attempted to 'view' what has come to pass from the corner of those still in doubt re: Oscar's perceived guilt.
I wrapped my head around the PT's evidence and what the DT have offered thus far. I allowed room for what the DT still HAS to offer and what the PT 'could' offer should they successfully apply to re-open their case for e.g. psychological experts etc.

I spent close to 9km's singing from the DT's hymn sheet and honestly, I was left with more doubt in OP's version than what I had before my experiment kicked off. I can't buy anything from OP or his DT at this stage - not even if it's on sale.

My question: Those that believe Oscar could be telling the truth from start to finish, WHAT is it that convinces you of this? Is it simply that the PT haven't convinced you? Is it a belief in Oscar's OWN testimony?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this, simply because I would honestly take them into account when assessing my own bias.

 

[Val1]

Not breathing... breathing... struggling... a spit and a sputter... a gasp... a cough... a rasp... a strange whining noise... oh, now breathing again... oh no, now not breathing again...

Depending on illness, cause, circumstances, from my experience and from what a doctor told me that can be absolutely normal for a moribund... of course, certainly not for someone who is dead already or who dies in their sleep! My father died at home like the above from from a brain tumour and spent his last 5 days, 3 on morphine in that "breathing not breathing" state so I really can't see the problem here. Agreed OP may well be lying on many things, but what is the point of him lying about this?!

And according to all reports Saayman only said Reeva would probably have only taken a few breaths after the head shot, and "probably" is absolutely not definitely not least because medicine is not an exact science. Nor did Saayman give a time span for in between those "few" breaths and my father could go several minutes at a time without a breath during which we would all think he had died until a deep breath and there he was back again breathing at times for an hour or more as rhythmically as a baby while other times rasping and gasping for a while leaving us to watch, and listen, waiting for him to die. And then he did. He died at the same time as he raised one arm in the air as if in a nazi salute and let out the most enormous sigh as if all the air in his tissues was leaving him in one go.

No, I don't believe OP is lying here, but even if I didm Nel informed the court the State accepts his story after the downing of the door so it would mean a hiding to nowhere while there are other more important conundrums unresolved.

So sorry to hear about your experience with your father. As for him raising his arm, I think he was reaching towards the light. :grouphug:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

So if OP was carrying RS down the steps with her head on his left side, leaving the blood trail from her hair on the banister, then the arterial spurt must have come from her arm... I gather it must have then been left hanging behind him instead of tucked into his body.

I still cannot understand this. I asked my hubby to pick me up so I could visualise how the hair brushed the bannister and it demonstrated to me that he was not protecting the areas where Reeva was shot .
You would have expected him to carry her the other way round so as not to put any pressure on any of the wounds if he did think she was still alive at this point .

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Before I go for a run - what kind of ear witness accounts would help OP's version? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious. No screaming doesn't help because he screamed.

I think they will testify to Oscar :tantrum: like a woman.

 

[Rumpole]

Before I go for a run - what kind of ear witness accounts would help OP's version? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious. No screaming doesn't help because he screamed.

I agree.

If Roux can't find anybody who heard screams, then he has the State's witnesses to fall back on.

That is one of the reasons that I LIKE the Stipps' evidence. I actually have no problem believing they simply misinterpreted OP's anguished cries as being "a woman screaming". So for me it's not a huge issue. Human beings mis-interpreting what they hear (or see) is common. I certainly do not see any problem with the defense presenting the fact that the screams were OP as a VERY reasonable alternative to the State version. (Reasonable doubt and all that)


It would be NICE if the two sets of loud bangs were heard by others? It would be a biggie if the time of the first bangs (gunshots) could be pinned down more precisely. We do have MOST of the Defence case presentation still ahead of us. Bring Popcorn.

 

[lithgow1]

Good morning Cape Town Crim. Could you answer a question - am I right in thinking that in order to avoid being found guilty of murder, the judge will have to believe that OP was justified in his fears when he fired those bullets. In other words, no matter who was on the other side of the door, if he cannot reasonably explain why he did what he did then he will be found guilty. It seems to me that a lot of emphasis is placed on whether or not he knew it was RS, and of course the reason for that is obvious, but it seems the shooting to kill of the 'intruder' takes something of a backseat in all the debate. Thanks in advance.

 

[Rumpole]

I think they will testify to Oscar :tantrum: like a woman.

I know it is a source of "amusement" to refer to "Oscar screaming like a woman"

The issue really is though, can people Mis-interpret a Man's high pitched anguished cries as sounding like a woman screaming. There is a subtle difference.

People can, for instance, mistake a cat's cries for a human baby. Nobody would claim that the cat in question sounded exactly like a baby.... it is a case of Mis-perception, and illusion, which is quite common. We all make mistakes in what we interpret from what we see and hear. That is the basis of optical illusions, in the extreme case, or just common, everyday mistakes.

"To err is human"

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

haha.....watching OP's furiously taking notes during Michelle Burger's X-exam...with..Nel putting out the states interpretation.....and lol at OP scribbling away on his note pad....fantastic

The first indication that he would be tailoring from the get go.

He was taking sleeve measurements.

Burger: I hard blood curdling female screams that faded out after the last shots.

Oscar (on his note pad) **Note to self, I screamed like I have never screamed before - must repeat this 12 times for court record. NBBBB!!! I stopped screaming when the last shot was fired and NOT a millisecond before. If Gerrie asks me why I didn't scream when I opened the bathroom door I will answer "what would the purpose have been?" ** Another note to self: :I'm smarter than these chumps.

Barry should never have given him a notepad IMHO. It was these notes he took that forced him to deviate from the 'planned' testimony. He would have thought himself terribly smart at the time (adding in additional 'information' to counter everything Burger, Stipp etc had to say).

We all know how this turned out. :floorlaugh:

 

[wb180]

One couple WAS a long way away. And did not come forward for weeks after hearing news reports etc. That evidence is hardly ideal. It indicates desperation on the part of the PT if they were forced to use that evidence.

Lets then go with just ONE couple out of all the near neighbors who heard "a woman scream". Apparently the State asked several others and they stated they did not hear it. Roux read out names of several such witnesses, from the State witness list, who were not called. It was confirmed that NONE heard a woman's screams. I don't know what testimony there will be from neighbors that the Defense has found. I actually think that both the Stipps are good witnesses. I would not reject their testimony in regard what they heard. I would not reject what the Burgers testified to hearing either. I would give it a LOT less weight than evidence from close neighbors, and a LOT less weight than people who gave statements to police soon after the event, rather than weeks later. I would question both couples' INTERPRETATION of what caused the sounds they heard is all. I think the State witnesses confirm OP's version.... taken as a whole, considering State expert testimony and the times we can pin down.

So it is not ideal because they are so far away but they are credible witnesses so cannot dismiss what they say. I really don't see the desperation of PT. All I see is they found some credible witnesses that showed them what happened that night and build their case based on such evidence. I am happy to call PT crap if they were that (right know the only crap evidence PT provided would be the police testimony).

As for second point, did the other neighbors say they didn't hear it because they were awake and they didn't hear any screaming or what was the real testimony?

So let's go with ONE then - you can't dismiss what they say as they are credible. So now, the ball is on DT's court to dismiss this testimony. I am waiting for their witnesses to come and dismiss it because OP screaming like a woman is weak weak weak.

 

[crasshopper]

I agree with no. 4 especially. Recently I slept through a thunderstorm but awoke the same night to one of the kids coughing quietly.

Crazy isn't it

 

[crasshopper]

...

Barry should never have given him a notepad. :floorlaugh:

Seriously, you need to tweet that!