GUILTY FL - Calyx, 16, & Beau Schenecker, 13, shot to death, Tampa, 27 Jan 2011 #2

[Whiteorchids]

Thank you. I haven't read that she thought she heard voices speaking to her.

She seemed very organized in how she planned these executions out.

She may be schizophrenic...I really don't know. There are quite a few schizophrenics in prison and others with all sorts of mental disorders of some type or another.

That is still not a viable insanity defense imo when it comes to being in the criminal justice system.

She did know right from wrong and that is why she parked her vehicle out of sight where she never parked and she knew she had to give a reasonable explanation for wanting to purchase the gun.

I see nothing yet that shows me she was in a psychotic state for days on end.

Her weird way of walking and acting when arrested was due to the abuse of alcohol and drug combination imo.

No one has testified that I am aware of that this woman was acting differently in the few days prior to the murders.

JMO

You need to read the emails. I posted a link earlier. This was all coming to a head. Her depression had been the worst ever according to PS he had sent emails to all her family members needing advice, help on the situation. She was in bed 24/7.

I believe she was delusional. I'm pretty sure when all this is over she will be committed for life to a state hospital for the criminally insane. I believe she has less of a chance being on the streets again going to a hospital as opposed to being sent to prison. The DP wasn't brought to the table because MI is s a mitigating factor.

 

[Zuri]

You need to read the emails. I posted a link earlier. This was all coming to a head. Her depression had been the worst ever according to PS he had sent emails to all her family member needing advice, help on the situation. She was in bed 24/7.

I read these emails too. I guess her family was pointing fingers at him at some point for her being non functional and in bed for 5 weeks prior to that one email where he responded. What was clear to me was that her brother had no clue as how to deal with her I.e. the snap out of it email.

I bet those 5 weeks in bed were spent planning the murder of her 2 children. She was able to research where to buy a gun, go to Lock n Load, purchase it on her stealth credit card, go back and pick it up and take it home. Where I have difficulty in believing she is insane per legal definition is the premeditated acts, the journal, the sticky notes, all of it. Waiting for the perfect moment to strike and take out her kids. I think she is a coward hiding behind a diagnosis. She knew right from wrong. She could have killed herself, but declined. She could have pled out to LWOP, but no, it has to be one last FU to JS. She needs to spend the rest of her life paying for what she did. JMV

 

[Bernina]

Thank you. I haven't read that she thought she heard voices speaking to her.

She seemed very organized in how she planned these executions out.

She may be schizophrenic...I really don't know. There are quite a few schizophrenics in prison and others with all sorts of mental disorders of some type or another.

That is still not a viable insanity defense imo when it comes to being in the criminal justice system.

She did know right from wrong and that is why she parked her vehicle out of sight where she never parked and she knew she had to give a reasonable explanation for wanting to purchase the gun.

I see nothing yet that shows me she was in a psychotic state for days on end.

Her weird way of walking and acting when arrested was due to the abuse of alcohol and drug combination imo.

No one has testified that I am aware of that this woman was acting differently in the few days prior to the murders.

JMO

BBM:
She has Tardive dyskinesia from medication.
Bipolar.
Schizoaffective disorder
.

 

[nolachurch]

Her shakes & odd walk are definetely bc of the drug mixture or lack of by that point. I know that lithium itself gives you odd shakes/ movements..

 

[Rhozwen]

I agree Janx, I think mostly she wanted to hurt her husband. The *only* decent thing in all of it is the children died very quickly and were spared any lengthy suffering.

I wish Fla. had 'guilty but insane' that the jury could consider and sentence her to a lifetime in a mental health ward, I think she most definitely qualifies for that. Although I think she does have deep mental problems, I can't quite get myself to think of her as 'not guilty by reason of insanity' as she seems to have had enough sanity to have permeditated this. The defense hasn't gone yet so I'm still somewhat undecided, but they'd have to do a whole lot of convincing.

From what I understand regarding Florida Law, if she is found 'Not Guilty by reason of Insanity' she would not necessarily be discharged and "go free". A hearing would be held to determine if she would be institutionalized, or receive out-patient care and be assigned a social worker, or if she would not receive any care at all.

This is based on Florida Statute 916.15 - Involuntary commitment of defendant adjudicated not guilty by reason of insanity.

The Full Statute can be found here:
http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/916.15

This statute states that: "A defendant who is acquitted of criminal charges because of a finding of not guilty by reason of insanity may be involuntarily committed pursuant to such finding if the defendant has a mental illness and, because of the illness, is manifestly dangerous to himself or herself or others."

and

"In all proceedings under this section, both the defendant and the state shall have the right to a hearing before the committing court."

As well as Rule: 3.217. Judgment of Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity

which states: "... if the court then determines that the defendant presently meets the criteria set forth by law, the court shall commit the defendant to the Department of Children and Family Services or shall order outpatient treatment at any other appropriate facility or service, or shall discharge the defendant. Any order committing the defendant or requiring outpatient treatment or other outpatient service ..."

 

[Chelly]

You must not have any experience with people that are severely mentally ill.

She has a long history of Chronic Depression, Bi-polar and Schizoaffective Disorder. Many hospitalizations and treatments for the last 20 years. Mental illness is degenerative and it only gets worse not better. No cure. It's like having a brain tumor and meds constantly have to be monitored and changed. Her husband said she had been struggling with it through 20 years of marriage. Please do your homework.

Whiteorchids.THANK YOU! I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your voice of reason.

I am usually a regular poster on our trials threads, but I've had to refrain from posting during this trial because of many mean-spirited opinions that have been put forth here. My one opinion asking for respect for this disease was answered harshly.

Mental illness is not about a lack of morals, a lack of self-control or being evil. The brain is an organ just like the heart, liver, lungs, pancreas, etc. If we can have sympathy for a suffering cancer patient, why can't we at least be fair to someone with a diseased brain?

Can we at least be as fair as the jurors have been asked to be? All the evidence has not yet been presented.

 

[SeeMamaRun]

I believe she is mentally ill but in the eyes of the law, I don't believe she is criminally insane. To get someone Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity they have to prove that she was so insane that she did not know right from wrong at the time of the murders.

From what I've read and seen, I do believe she knew exactly what she was doing and that it was wrong. She may have been very depressed at the time, she may be mentally ill but she planned to murder her children in cold blood and she knew it was wrong as she planned it and as she carried it out.

MOO

 

[Zuri]

Slightly OT: If any of you have been to cities like New York, one cannot help but notice many mentally ill, homeless people walking around, talking to themselves, the air, passer bys. In NYC, there seemed to be a plethora of them near Madison Square Garden, 30th Street Station. The cops tried to encourage them to move along as this is a heavily trafficked tourist area. I watched the reaction of the "normal" folks when spoken to or approached by the MI folks. The "normal" folks couldn't get away fast enough, shielded their children, cut a wide path around them and were afraid. I explained to my children what was going on and to take notice of how "uncomfortable" many of the "normal" folks were. This was an excellent teaching moment as a parent. Kindness, tolerance, a smile, saying hello back, not shying away but maintaining a respectful space, being aware that there are people who are not well in their brain, but that did not make them "bad" people.

With JS, I truly don't know how I could explain this if I had to, which makes me feel like I am lacking empathy and compassion. Does anyone else have mixed feelings?

 

[bloodmeridian]

Just a post for those who may be interested.

This is a list of the meds prescribed to JS found at the scene:

Oxycodone: Filled 08/05/2010 (empty - Rx amount not disclosed)
*semi-synthetic opioid - for pain*

Lithium: Filled 01/21/2011 (55 left from 60)
*mood stabilizer - for Bipolar Disorder*

Hydrocodone: Filled 01/27/2010 (empty from 30)
*semi-synthetic opioid - for pain*

Benzatropine: Filled 01/18/2011 (75 left from 75)
*anticholingeric - for the treatment of Parkinson’s Disease*

Lithium: Filled 12/25/2010 (36 left from 60)
*mood stabilizer - for Bipolar Disorder*

Triazolam: Filled 01/12/2011 (4 left from 4)
*benzodiazepine - acute insomnia (short-term)*

Amoxicillin: Filled 01/12/2011 (30 left from 30)
*penicillin antibiotic - for infection*

Buspirone: Filled 01/21/2011 (41 left from 45)
*anxiolytic psychactive - anxiety disorder (short-term)*

Coumadin: No Fill Date (59 left from 90)
*anticoagulant - prevention of thrombosis*

Citalopram: Filled 01/19/2011 (29 left from 30)
*SSRI anti-depressant - for depression*

Venlafaxine: Filled 01/21/2011 (86 left from 90)
*SNRI anti depressant - depression, anxiety, vasomotor symptoms*

Lamotrigine: Filled 01/18/2011 (68 left from 90)
*anticonvulsant - bipolar disorder*

Warfarin: Filled 06/08/2010 (60 left from 90)
*anticoagulant - prevention of thrombosis*

*undisclosed, unidentified amount/type of pills collected form a a paper ‘pharmacy bag'*

 

[Chelly]

Slightly OT: If any of you have been to cities like New York, one cannot help but notice many mentally ill, homeless people walking around, talking to themselves, the air, passer bys. In NYC, there seemed to be a plethora of them near Madison Square Garden, 30th Street Station. The cops tried to encourage them to move along as this is a heavily trafficked tourist area. I watched the reaction of the "normal" folks when spoken to or approached by the MI folks. The "normal" folks couldn't get away fast enough, shielded their children, cut a wide path around them and were afraid. I explained to my children what was going on and to take notice of how "uncomfortable" many of the "normal" folks were. This was an excellent teaching moment as a parent. Kindness, tolerance, a smile, saying hello back, not shying away but maintaining a respectful space, being aware that there are people who are not well in their brain, but that did not make them "bad" people.

With JS, I truly don't know how I could explain this if I had to, which makes me feel like I am lacking empathy and compassion. Does anyone else have mixed feelings?

Me, but only because of my experiences and exposure to the mentally ill.
You know the saying "Walk a Mile in My Shoes"?

 

[Rhozwen]

I am reading up on the M'Naghten Rule and in Florida, the burden of proof of sanity is on the Prosecution. So, if she is found Guilty but insane, is the sentencing of that like voluntary manslaughter? TIA

I do not think 'Guilty but Insane' is an option.

She is facing two counts of 1st degree murder.
The Jury will have to decide if she is (from what I understand):

A) Guilty of Murder 1 on one or both counts

B) Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity

C) Not Guilty

Under the M'Naghten Rule, the burden lies on Prosecution to disprove that the defendant:

"1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences, or

2. Although he or she knew what he or she was doing and its
consequences, did not know that it was wrong."

M'Naghten Rule can be found here;
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/comments/2005/05-1622 Second Amended Report 3-9-06.pdf

All of the above is mostly JMO as I am no expert, I just like doing research and I hope to understand what I'm reading..but can't guarantee that my brain is right all of the time.

:findinglink:

 

[bloodmeridian]

Slightly OT: If any of you have been to cities like New York, one cannot help but notice many mentally ill, homeless people walking around, talking to themselves, the air, passer bys. In NYC, there seemed to be a plethora of them near Madison Square Garden, 30th Street Station. The cops tried to encourage them to move along as this is a heavily trafficked tourist area. I watched the reaction of the "normal" folks when spoken to or approached by the MI folks. The "normal" folks couldn't get away fast enough, shielded their children, cut a wide path around them and were afraid. I explained to my children what was going on and to take notice of how "uncomfortable" many of the "normal" folks were. This was an excellent teaching moment as a parent. Kindness, tolerance, a smile, saying hello back, not shying away but maintaining a respectful space, being aware that there are people who are not well in their brain, but that did not make them "bad" people.

With JS, I truly don't know how I could explain this if I had to, which makes me feel like I am lacking empathy and compassion. Does anyone else have mixed feelings?

I feel the most terrible compassion for her, and all who are affected by her actions. I'll admit, I don't know all the circumstances yet.

I'm not a person who does not believe in cold, calculated murder, or that evil exists, but I (genuinely) don't see a monster here.

There is no doubt that she was extremely negligent with her mental health and the severity of it (she didn't even seem to take her meds), and there is no doubt that she was responsible for her drinking and drugging. And what that did to her mental health - is untold damage! After all, she had been through rehab....and she knew the score! The only outcome from addiction is jail, death or insanity! And she's heading for one of them for sure!

I think the best description I've heard of her person so far is 'BROKEN'! Even before she met her husband. Very 'BROKEN' indeed!!!

 

[Rhozwen]

Do you remember James Holmes the Batman Movie killer? He had been planning for months. Do you not think he was insane either?

I am in no way excusing what she did. It's horrific just like Andrea Yates but we have a big problem in the country with the mentally ill because nowhere to house them since no more Insane Asylums. Like the old days. When they go to psych hospitals they try to send them home or in the streets after a few days unless psych Dr extends it. When they are over 18 medication can't be forced. It's hard to get a MI patient kept in the hospital very long. This is why the jails, prisons, and streets are full of MI people. It's very difficult for families to live with severely MI loved ones.

So you can have a severely mentally ill family member and nowhere to place them since they have to either commit a crime to go to jail on 5150 or self commit because danger to self or others by being evaluated voluntarily. It's is a struggle for family members.

I wonder why PS knowledge of 2 decades of her MI he never filed for a conservatorship? He would have been able to commit her into a hospital or treatment against her will and release of information. With her past history he would have been granted conservator fairly easily. Family members can be co-conservators. I've been one I know.

I've wondered this myself. Perhaps he didn't know it was an option?
In the e-mails he kept saying that he was respecting her decision to not allow him access to her records.
I don't understand that, but don't feel I'm in the position to judge his choice because I've never been in that position.
Maybe he felt his hands were tied, and that she was being treated, so hoped for the best?

 

[Rhozwen]

Thanks I appreciate it. Thank god he has never hurt anyone. He is in and out of jails, psych hospitals, prison, goes missing etc... It is a nightmare to say the least.

He was a straight A student all through school. Graduated with high honors. Teachers loved him, he was popular, athletic, nice looking, sweet and kind with a heart of gold. Went off to college joined a fraternity. He got addicted to Adderrall which brought out the Schizoaffective to the surface. He joined the Air Force got kicked out. Still going through this hell today. It only keeps getting worse.

:grouphug: for you and Bernina.

Mental Illness affects so many.

 

[Zuri]

Just a post for those who may interested.

This is a list of the meds prescribed to JS found at the scene:

Oxycodone: Filled 08/05/2010 (empty - Rx amount not disclosed)
*semi-synthetic opioid - for pain*

Lithium: Filled 01/21/2011 (55 left from 60)
*mood stabilizer - for Bipolar Disorder*

Hydrocodone: Filled 01/27/2010 (empty from 30)
*semi-synthetic opioid - for pain*

Benzatropine: Filled 01/18/2011 (75 left from 75)
*anticholingeric - for the treatment of Parkinson’s Disease*

Lithium: Filled 12/25/2010 (36 left from 60)
*mood stabilizer - for Bipolar Disorder*

Triazolam: Filled 01/12/2011 (4 left from 4)
*benzodiazepine - acute insomnia (short-term)*

Amoxicillin: Filled 01/12/2011 (30 left from 30)
*penicillin antibiotic - for infection*

Buspirone: Filled 01/21/2011 (41 left from 45)
*anxiolytic psychactive - anxiety disorder (short-term*

Coumadin: No Fill Date (59 left from 90)
*anticoagulant - prevention of thrombosis*

Citalopram: Filled 01/19/2011 (29 left from 30)
*SSRI anti-depressant - for depression*

Venlafaxine: Filled 01/21/2011 (86 left from 90)
*SNRI anti depressant - depression, anxiety, vasomotor symptoms*

Lamotrigine: Filled 01/18/2011 (68 left from 90)
*anticonvulsant - bipolar disorder*

Warfarin: Filled 06/08/2010 (60 left from 90)
*anticoagulant - prevention of thrombosis*

*undisclosed, unidentified amount/type of pills collected form a a paper ‘pharmacy bag'*

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.
Out of all these drugs, it looks like she was only taking Lithium as directed with some added in there if it was the long acting. The Vicodin was empty.

These are the typical doses:
Lamotrigine: Lamictal: 1QD
Lithium: 1 QD or BID
Vicodin: q 6 hours prn
Benzatropine: Cogentin: 1-2 mg/day
Triazolam: Halcion: 1 HS
Venlafacine: Effexor: 1 QD
Citralopam: Celexa: 1 QD
Buspirone: Buspar: dosage prescribed by MD
Warfarin:Coumadin: ?

I saw this list and went OMG. Some of these are contraindicated when used with another and some of these drugs are hardly ever used anymore.

 

[Bernina]

If you re-watch the opening statements from BOTH sides, she had a toxic level of both Lithium (for bipolor) and Coumadin (a blood thinner) when LE took her to the hospital AFTER she was interviewed/interrogated.

 

[Rhozwen]

Slightly OT: If any of you have been to cities like New York, one cannot help but notice many mentally ill, homeless people walking around, talking to themselves, the air, passer bys. In NYC, there seemed to be a plethora of them near Madison Square Garden, 30th Street Station. The cops tried to encourage them to move along as this is a heavily trafficked tourist area. I watched the reaction of the "normal" folks when spoken to or approached by the MI folks. The "normal" folks couldn't get away fast enough, shielded their children, cut a wide path around them and were afraid. I explained to my children what was going on and to take notice of how "uncomfortable" many of the "normal" folks were. This was an excellent teaching moment as a parent. Kindness, tolerance, a smile, saying hello back, not shying away but maintaining a respectful space, being aware that there are people who are not well in their brain, but that did not make them "bad" people.

With JS, I truly don't know how I could explain this if I had to, which makes me feel like I am lacking empathy and compassion. Does anyone else have mixed feelings?

Absolutely I have mixed feelings about JS!
My way of dealing with it is that I'm choosing to be as open-minded as I can about her until I have more information to make my decision.
I simply can not relate to a person murdering their own child. I would die a thousand deaths before I ever harmed my daughter. So my initial thought is that a person has to be insane to kill their child, but that's not necessarily true. Sometimes people are just evil and they do evil deeds.
I like to limit my knowledge of a case to just the facts and I try to not put too much weight on the opinions that I read.
I honestly do not know if she is insane. As more information is revealed, I'm sure my feelings/opinions will change.

 

[nolachurch]

I don't really see her as a monster either. From what I can see, (and I don't know all the facts yet), I see a Selfish,Broken woman who is totally self absorbed,selfish & bitter. One who lost herself fully in her illness/depression,addictions & self pity. Her act wasn't to "help" her kids in her mind, it was bc they were " mouthy" by her own accord. It is an Evil act but she is not necessarily an evil person.a selfish,self absorbed,depressed & desperate drug addict sounds like to me.an act of desperate revenge, I judge bc of her comment to her husband "I bet I stopped your heart,huh?" even after she was arrested screams an InSpite of motive to me. I have compassion for the pain she was feeling from her mess of a marriage,depression,addictions spiraling & not knowing what to do but I have no compassion for the act of killing her kids to show her husband..
And of course, the Opiates were missing. The one reward hitting drug on the list. Tells me she took the drugs selectively, taking the ones that feed her addictions on time & taking the psychotropic,etc. drugs whenever she decided to..

 

[bloodmeridian]

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.
Out of all these drugs, it looks like she was only taking Lithium as directed with some added in there if it was the long acting. The Vicodin was empty.

These are the typical doses:
Lamotrigine: Lamictal: 1QD
Lithium: 1 QD or BID
Vicodin: q 6 hours prn
Benzatropine: Cogentin: 1-2 mg/day
Triazolam: Halcion: 1 HS
Venlafacine: Effexor: 1 QD
Citralopam: Celexa: 1 QD
Buspirone: Buspar: dosage prescribed by MD
Warfarin:Coumadin: ?

I saw this list and went OMG. Some of these are contraindicated when used with another and some of these drugs are hardly ever used anymore.

Yes...I found it interesting. But do you know what I noticed? The empties were the opioids! There's a few in there that I would have been interested in if I was suffering from severe depression, or bi-polar, but she went for the opioids (euphoria).

She was an addict for sure, and with the severity of her mental health, I'd have presumed her Docs would have prescribed opioids with caution.....no? Especially since they would have been aware that she had been in rehab, I assume.

*In addition....Yes! re: conraindicated Rx! She was prescribed an SSRI alongside an SNRI, two opioids at once, as well as two forms of the same drug, Warafin & Coudmadin!?!?!

 

[Zuri]

If you re-watch the opening statements from BOTH sides, she had a toxic level of both Lithium (for bipolor) and Coumadin (a blood thinner) when LE took her to the hospital AFTER she was interviewed/interrogated.

I figured she had the TD from Lithium toxicity. Was the Coumadin prescribed from her car accident? I wonder if they did a tox screen as the Vicodin was empty.