The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

[JK673]

If newbies are invited, I would so LOVE to meet you all! It'd be cool to try and guess usernames. Trooper, if you've blown all your money on fast women and fast food, the chicks are gonna spring for a room.

Of course newbies can come.

 

[kiwijayne]

yeah provocation was replaced with 'defensive homicide' which has been in the news in the past few weeks as they are changing it again as this was being exploited by thugs. One chased his girlfriend and killed her and pleaded this 'defensive homicide' and was found guilty of it. It was obvious muderous rage.

A big case in NZ was Clayton Weatherston who claimed provocation when he killed Sophie Elliott.
http://murderpedia.org/male.W/w/weatherston-clayton.htm

Provocation has since been removed as a defence in NZ.

 

[Thinking]

No, not for murder.

JCB I have appreciated your views over the course of the trial. You seemed quite dismayed when the defendant took the stand and you seemed to think this would be a bad thing for the prosecution. What are your thoughts after how the last 24 hours have transpired? I always enjoy reading your posts (even if they make me worried!)

 

[kiwijayne]

If newbies are invited, I would so LOVE to meet you all! It'd be cool to try and guess usernames. Trooper, if you've blown all your money on fast women and fast food, the chicks are gonna spring for a room.

It won't be hard to guess mine as soon as I open my mouth you will notice.:blushing:

 

[linette]

This really does seem to contradict what GBC told the court today. I am sure he said he was with his lawyer (at that time Darren Mahoney) and also meeting with Peter Davis (a barrister that his lawyer worked with) when told.
When and where he was when his wife's body was found surely is something he would remember vividly.

Yes, because people always remember where they were and what they were doing when something significant happens. Something like your partners body being found should stand above all else... well, to your average caring person.

 

[Timmy]

It won't be hard to guess mine as soon as I open my mouth you will notice.:blushing:

But you could be kiwi50.

 

[itsthevibe]

Originally Posted by Cattail
Personally I think it will all come down to who ties things together better in their closing statements.

As you have all kept up with the trial I have noticed many many many comments of yes that happened, when will we get to this, that's not what they said before etc.

To the jury this is all new information delivered at times in boring ways. Eg 100 (yes an exaggeration).people to say the cuts were not made by a razor.

They are human, there will have been times when their minds wandered. And in this trial there was no "Gotcha" moment, no movie like revelations of fingerprints or blood stained clothes. No sit up and take notice now moment.

So I believe it will come down very much to who can tie it all together without being so long winded they lose the jury in the process.

Bingo! Absolutely agree, that's why I'm so nervous!! At least the prosecution is last so they're case hopefully will be top of mind for jurors

Yes, I have thought the same thing Cattail, about the jurors. and I totally agree about the lack of GOTCHA moments. overall i think you're spot-on. My onyl tendency to think it will still be a guilty of manslaughter verdict, or even guilty of murder, is that I still think it is quite possible that the jury will have never fallen for GBC's ramblings, and seen that he is a lying cheating type of person, and then at the end of the day there are only a few pieces of key evidence they have to be assured of to believe he is guilty.

I sometimes wonder that because I am so passionate about this case and now GBC's guilt, that my fear of him getting off is so strong that i can't be objective about what the jury might think. I tend to lean towards thinking they are not going to be as certain as I am, because as you say they haven't had the same length of time and attention to detail that we have had here, especially the old-timers.

What I think will be interesting is how long the jury is out to consider their verdict. If it is a very short time I will feel a bit more confident.

 

[laserdisc10]

Yes, because people always remember where they were and what they were doing when something significant happens. Something like your partners body being found should stand above all else... well, to your average caring person.

Oh well, at least he remembered to contact the insurance people

 

[Jo04]

I'm still feeling uneasy about this. In my mind it's beyond reasonable doubt that Gerard is a compulsive liar that doesn't take responsibility for his actions. I have beyond reasonable doubt that he was in dire financial stress. I have beyond reasonable doubt that he was at a minimum emotionally abusive toward Allison, adding to her depressive state at times.I have beyond reasonable doubt that he did not do all the home duties that he said he did otherwise school run that morning would've not been so stressful. I have beyond reasonable doubt the gouges on his face came from fingernails and if the DNA was complete from under Allison's fingers nails would've been his DNA. I have beyond reasonable doubt the leaf matter from her hair was from their yard.

I do believe he did get bitten on the neck by an insect, I do believe he may have cut his palm with a screw driver but the rest of those injuries I believe we're cause by Allison. There has been no other reasonable explanation in my opinion for them except for violence. I just hope the jury see it that way too. There may not be physical evidence to how he killed her but there is a lot of little things that point to one conclusion. He killed Allison! Today my son turned 6. Also mourning the death of my best friends daughter 12 who sadly passed by partial hanging in her bedroom 2 yrs ago. No warning, no note.


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[itsthevibe]

Remember the photos of Allison's girls at her funeral? Very telling, imo. The arms crossed over their chests and holding their own hands, held tight by their bodies as GBC tried to hide behind them. Yet they were happy to hold hands with Mr and Mrs Dickie just moments later

I think it was the middle child who had the arms crossed, or was it all of them? But yes, their was definite concerning body language, in relation to their Dad, from at least one.

 

[kiwijayne]

But you could be kiwi50.

Very true

 

[steadan]

Yes, because people always remember where they were and what they were doing when something significant happens. Something like your partners body being found should stand above all else... well, to your average caring person.

like where you were when Kieran Perkins won his medal !!!!!!!

 

[Camp Chair]

Are we having a meet and greet? We should have a party after GBC is convicted.

OK Kiwijayne... but no keys in bowls :floorlaugh:

 

[BatWoman]

Would genuinely like to agree. But children who're manipulated by narcissists go a bit numb in the memory department, based on what I've observed. For example, knew a couple really well. Father was close to a saint - closest I've met. The mother was a bone-deep narcissist. The father left his air-conditioned vehicle for his wife every day, even though she didn't get out of bed until noon (no exaggeration). And the father rode a bone-breaking motor bike about 50 kilometres out to the mines each day. And 50 kilometres return trip. All in stinking heat

Before the father left for work, he made breakfast for his children, changed the younger one's nappy, settled them down with something to entertain them. The children and father were well aware by that stage that mum was not to be disturbed. On one occasion, the girls got a stool and into the fridge, looking for boiled eggs, because they were so hungry and Narcissist Mum was still flat on her back asleep. They smashed almost an entire carton of raw eggs, one after another

Twenty years went by and the elder daughter was now a mother herself. On a trip down to the coast, she dropped in to see me, baby and husband in tow, to ask if I'd mind caring for the baby for the day (turned out to be 18 hours without word from her, plus she'd brought the toddler son of her sister in law along to be minded also)

We were talking about her childhood and she commented on how great her own husband was with the baby, etc. and how useless her own father had been when she was a child. I said, 'But don't you remember how great your dad was? Don't you remember how he did this and that for you?'. No. She said she had no memory of it, adding, 'Mum always said he was the most selfish, useless ... blabla'

I couldn't believe it. Her father went above and beyond for his children, always gentle, teaching by leading, sacrificing for them daily, putting up with their mother. All forgotten, wiped away by the narcissistic mother. The kids had been brain-washed and had lost all those wonderful memories of their father as if none of what he'd done for them had ever happened

This is eerily similar to my ex. I had to leave the car at home for him in case he needed to drive up the block for cigarettes during the day, while i had to take 2 babies on the bus to daycare and work (they both have adhd/asd just to make it more fun). Buses then didnt allow strollers so it was not easy juggling babies and folding up strollers while carrying their bags, my laptop and my bag.

It's really not an easy decision to leave a marriage when you have young kids but the biggest reason i had was that I didn't want the kids to have this jerk as a role model and think that his behaviour was OK. It wasn't easy kicking him out, but life became much easier not having that 3rd demanding child around. If anyone is going through this please consider that in some cases it's not the best for your kids to have a nuclear family, but a stable family. Yes you have to deal with custody issues and it can be difficult for the kids being treated as pawns, (especially when he went on to marry the woman with borderline personality disorder, I'm glad that failed) but I have a great relationship with my kids that I probably wouldn't have been able to have if i was still having to put him first.

I think so many of us can relate to Allison and it makes this case personal.

 

[linette]

Now that GBC has finally stopped talking there is something that should be noted:

NOT ONCE IN ALL THAT MONOLOGUE DID HE SAY SOMETHING LIKE - 'I MISS

ALLISON SO MUCH' or 'IT'S SO AWFUL THAT THE GIRLS DON'T HAVE THEIR

MOTHER!'

Why, I wonder?

He has probably never thought of it that way.:what: ... from anyone else's point of view but his own.

 

[itsthevibe]

it would be a huge step into the unknown should a jury decide on unlawful killing.. and it would be an even bigger lunge into la la land if the judge gives the jury, in his instructions, that option.. considering that Gerard states he was asleep at the logical time she was murdered..

But this assumes he is telling the truth. Cant the judge instruct them that if they choose not to believe that he is telling the truth and that they also choose not to accept the motive of the money/insurance/moving in with lover, that they can say he is guilty of manslaughter if they believe it was a fight about the conference or mistress or whatever, which went wrong and he went into a rage and killed her, unplanned and independent of any financial issues.

Hoping alioop will be here later to give a Verified Expert view.

 

[LadyBird1]

1. Nobody asked him.
2. Nobody told him to.

Whaddya mean? You mean nobody told him he had to say anything OFF script?
Ooooh!
Lateral thinking required? Er um, who gives you lateral thinking? Or is that bought? Or is that what Daddy and Mummy supply just because?
Big word here ...... Gives.

 

[laserdisc10]

I think there would've been some doubt put in the juries mind today. Especially about how easy lying to his wife and mistress was to him. And I think that the prosecution may have cast doubt on his behaviour after the facc


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If I were a jury member (as we all are, unofficially) I'd see a person charged with murder

No-one else has been mentioned as having a motive

The victim was discovered many kilometres from her home

The victim had made plans for the day ahead

The victim had three young children

The accused murderer had borrowed from all and sundry and was still begging for more

The accused was admittedly unfaithful to the victim and lied to her throughout many years

The accused comes across as a bottom

The accused was the last to see the victim

The accused tells a laughable explanation for the canyons in his face and other marks and bruises

None of the expert witnesses have convinced the victim killed or transported herself

The accused stands to gain over a million dollars insurance via the death of the victim

The victim sounds just like jury members' nasty young cousin or neighbour's kid and thinks his po-faced whining and self-promotion will win my vote

As a jury member, I'd find the <modsnip> guilty on all charges and I'd believe I'd done a good days work

 

[BJsleuth]

I'll get back to you on that not near my notes ATM!

Thanks Liadan. There's no rush.

 

[MadDoc]

Yes, because people always remember where they were and what they were doing when something significant happens. Something like your partners body being found should stand above all else... well, to your average caring person.

He certainly remembered in great detail where he was when Princess Diana died, and when Kieran Perkins won gold at the Olympics.