Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #3

[SouthAussie]

They have to survive. Life goes on and they have long hard winters there. They have to prepare for that or they starve and there's no sense in letting that happen.

My fear for them would be contamination of their food supply/harvest. I wonder what would have happened to the great quantity of jet fuel that was on the plane. It was only a couple of hours into a 12-hour flight, not too much fuel would have been used yet.

Perhaps someone is onto that, and will spot check their harvest for them. Or perhaps the jet fuel would have not 'fallen' and would have remained in the atmosphere.

 

[zwiebel]

'More than a week after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 came down in rebel-held eastern Ukraine human remains are still at the crash site, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Saturday.'

' "It is, I stress, a humanitarian mission. Others can get involved if they wish in the politics of eastern Europe, our sole concern is to claim our dead and to bring them home," he said.'

http://www.news24.com/World/News/Human-remains-still-at-MH17-crash-site-Aus-PM-20140726

 

[ZaZara]

Heaven help them. I hope there are some kind people to care for them, and I hope and pray their daughter is one of those whose body can be identified quickly.

Zwiebel, I just read the WSJ-article that you mentioned earlier.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/afte...and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532

Those poor villagers! The agony that they are going through already..... and on top of that Australian couple is arriving mad with grief.
I hope the burden of dealing with them befalls the OSCE or the army.
But please, spare the locals this disaster. That couple has been travelling from Australia to Amsterdam to the Ukraine, and nobody had the guts to stop them. In a world full of experts and authorities, hospitals, medication grief cousellors, you name it .... nobody stopped them!
They will collapse any moment and end up with the locals in a warzone.
The state is absent there, the structure is gone ... why does the world always count on "the locals" having an endless supply of empathy and compassion, and food to share even if their lives are harder than all of those concerned?


:noooo::noooo::noooo:

Had to get this off my chest.

 

[ZaZara]

pierrecrom
13 minuten geleden

A Ukrainian rescue team search a wheat field for debris and human remains where the #mh17 flight crashed. According to one of the rescuer, farmers will harvest the field soon. #donbass #ukraine

http://instagram.com/p/q6T5c3tVvD/

 

[zwiebel]

Heartbreaking to think what Fatima's parents are seeing. I really hope someone's looking after them.

'He told The Telegraph: “I cling to it… In Australia, when one person [goes missing] hundreds of people go to the bush and look until they are found. So we want to [do it]. We want to see if there are survivors.” '

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ite-to-search-for-their-daughter-9630391.html

 

[SouthAussie]

Perhaps the Red Cross have taken Fatima's parents under their wing. Someone had to have transported them to the crash site to lay their flowers, I hope it was the Red Cross.

 

[ZaZara]

38 COFFINS ON THEIR WAY TO EINDHOVEN AIRPORT

Expected arrival of Dutch Hercules and Australian Boeing 16.00 hrs local time


Dutch FM Timmermans will attend the ceremony at the airport.



live stream (from approx. 15.45 hrs on):

http://nos.nl/nieuws/live/journaal24/

Local time now: 14.20 hrs


No flights tomorrow, this will be the last transport for now.

 

[gngr~snap]

Heaven help them. I hope there are some kind people to care for them, and I hope and pray their daughter is one of those whose body can be identified quickly.

I (think) I may have seen this woman in some of the pictures.
I wonder why mom said "strapped to her chair"? Has someone told her about the possibility that was her?
so sad.

All posts are MOO

 

[marlywings]

Profound words from a relative and parents of three children and their grandfather killed in the MH17 disaster....

July 25, 2014 8:43PM

He said the family wanted the MH17 disaster to become a “beacon of peace” and not “a trigger for war”.

Earlier this week, the children’s devastated parents released a statement that said “no hate in the world is as strong as the love we have for our children”.

“No one deserves what we are going through. Not even the people who shot our whole family out of the sky.”

http://www.news.com.au/national/qantas-flies-to-grieving-familys-rescue/story-fncynjr2-1227002020509

 

[kimi_SFC]

In stark contrast to the Ukrainian 'beauty' (who hates everything Ukrainian she said, before having to delete her social media after the outrage she caused) who boasted about using looted mascara online, there is a very moving Wall Street Journal article here about the local villagers around the scene of the crash.

As I always suspected, these are self sufficient, strong and practical people. The local miners are accustomed to dealing with deaths and accidents, and the protocols involved. They were ready and able to help store passengers bodies and possessions safely, but waited in vain for any directions from the Russian backed rebels.

' "In mines, you don't remove a body until they investigate it," he says.'

'While most of the bodies have been removed from the crash site, the roughly 6,500 residents of the villages remain traumatized by what they saw, trapped by debris and passengers' belongings scattered across the local landscape. Pieces of other people's lives haunt their own.'

They are absolutely heartbroken. But they have managed to retrieve a large pile of belongings and the lady mayor, whose husband is a miner and helped find bodies, is keeping them safe.

'On Thursday, an elderly woman showed up at her office in tears and handed over a doll with the name Emma stitched in pink across its shirt. The woman was digging potatoes. Emma turned up instead.

Ms. Voloshina is keeping the doll in a purple plastic bag on top of a large pile of passenger belongings that villagers keep finding every day: suitcases, wallets, a USB cord, and on and on.

"We're keeping them, we're waiting," Ms. Voloshina she says. She vows to get Emma home.'

The article is long but well worth reading. Note how locals describe the emergency workers who rushed from Donetsk to put out the fires, while the rebels simply stood above them with guns, doing nothing. The photo shows wreckage in the mayor's relative's cabbage patch, a week after the crash.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/afte...and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532

Another extraordinary piece, written by @PaulSonne of the @WSJ (along with Margaret Coker and Alexander Kolyandr).

IMO, it paints the picture of the dynamic the Ukrainians have been dealing with for quite some time: not being recognized or heard. It is shocking to me that this pattern continues, and yet, I chide myself and ask "Why are you so surprised?"

What will it take for the world to truly listen to the Ukrainians? FCOL, these locals were doing all they could with the limited resources they had, and were actively seeking cooperation and direction, yet they were essentially ignored. :moo:

All the while, we were clamoring for the same thing: to be able to properly care for those who were killed! :tantrum:

I don't know if they will ever get this message, but to every local who helped to care for the victims, I send my heartfelt thanks. I also will continue to pray for everyone who was/is traumatized by what they have seen /are seeing since 17July. Living in a war zone is traumatic enough (I know this from personal experience), but what they're living through with #MH17 is a whole other dimension of trauma, pain, and memories they will never escape. :moo:

I can't imagine a family member coming here (that's a separate post, though :blushing: )

raying:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ZaZara]

JEROEN AKKERMANS, CORRESPONDENT FOR RTL-NEWS HAS BEEN COLLECTING EVIDENCE
and he explains why and how:

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/jeroen-akkermans-zoveel-mogelijk-bewijs-op-tafel


Translation:

RTL News correspondent Jeroen Akkermans took many pictures when he was on the location of the air disaster in Ukraine. Akkermans explains why he tries to capture as much as possible: "You hope for justice, there is no more you can do."

"From the first confrontation with debris in the area I have been taking pictures," the correspondent said. "There was no investigator near in sight and the terrain was not secured. If you want to find out the cause it is essential to start as quickly as possible with the (photo-) research. That is almost impossible here. The debris are scattered sometimes kilometers from each other in a war zone. The safety of professional investigators is at stake.

"At first I was, between filming for the reports, only busy documenting. But when I saw a wing with clear signs of a possible impact I started searching with a purpose. I have some experience in this. Since the five-day war between Georgia and Russia in August 2008 I did a lot of investigation into the Russian missile with cluster bombs that killed [Dutch] cameraman Stan Storimans and 12 Georgians.

"To this day, the Russians deny any involvement in the death of Stan. That I did not want to accept and I started my own investigation. My documentary with the undeniable evidence of a Russian SS-26 Iskander missile has been included in the lawsuit by survivors at the European Court of Human Rights. Thanks much photo and video material made shortly after the impact of that rocket, there are many supporting documents available. You hope for a bit of justice, more you can't do. Truth finding is my work anyway. "

"In Ukraine we are again faced with the suspicion of a missile without anyone claiming responsibility. All the more important to get as much evidence as quickly as possible on the table. "

"The most clear indication for an impact, I came across in the village of Petropavlovka, " Akkermans said. "There is a riddled plate of the cockpit, it is not even that big. The edges are jagged, the sheet metal is showing a pattern of round bullet holes. I have photographed the sheet metal with the vague red white blue stripes of the airline from all sides. Details matter most, experience has taught me. "
"The piece of the wing that was the first part that I came across seems to have been grazed by a projectile. The superficial scrape damage is surrounded by deeper strikes. The impacts on this wing piece have a green print. The suspicion of experts tends towards a SA-11 BUK-rocket. That is Russian-made. This rocket is colored green with white. "


The pictures of Akkermans stir a great deal of interest: from journalists, investigators and analysts at home and abroad. "That is important for further research, especially because the investigation gets started so slowly due to the war conditions," the correspondent said. "Through my page on Flickr.com, everyone has easy access to hundreds of photos of the wreckage. The pictures have already been viewed over140,000 times. The Wall Street Journal has requested specific photos, just like the Finnish news agency STT. Colleagues of the Austrian TV ORF wanted to know more about the location of one of the ' evidence photos.
"I am working with a colleague from the German public broadcaster to further analyze specific material on certain substances. I am in contact with the Brit Eliot Higgins, one of the international experts in the field of weapons and weapons systems. He says that the images are excellent sources for finding out more. The German Luftfahrt Bundesamt in Braunschweig has reported to me with specific research questions. They are there also on top of this with a small research team. "

Pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/

 

[BJsleuth]

Another extraordinary piece, written by @PaulSonne of the @WSJ (along with Margaret Coker and Alexander Kolyandr).

IMO, it paints the picture of the dynamic the Ukrainians have been dealing with for quite some time: not being recognized or heard. It is shocking to me that this pattern continues, and yet, I chide myself and ask "Why are you so surprised?"

What will it take for the world to truly listen to the Ukrainians? FCOL, these locals were doing all they could with the limited resources they had, and were actively seeking cooperation and direction, yet they were essentially ignored. :moo:

All the while, we were clamoring for the same thing: to be able to properly care for those who were killed! :tantrum:

I don't know if they will ever get this message, but to every local who helped to care for the victims, I send my heartfelt thanks. I also will continue to pray for everyone who was/is traumatized by what they have seen /are seeing since 17July. Living in a war zone is traumatic enough (I know this from personal experience), but what they're living through with #MH17 is a whole other dimension of trauma, pain, and memories they will never escape. :moo:

I can't imagine a family member coming here (that's a separate post, though :blushing: )

raying:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

They are a beacon of compassion and humanity in this turmoil in circumstances most of us can only imagine.

They have gone above and beyond.

 

[Donamena]

My fear for them would be contamination of their food supply/harvest. I wonder what would have happened to the great quantity of jet fuel that was on the plane. It was only a couple of hours into a 12-hour flight, not too much fuel would have been used yet.

Perhaps someone is onto that, and will spot check their harvest for them. Or perhaps the jet fuel would have not 'fallen' and would have remained in the atmosphere.

At the risk of incurring groaning, due to this person's odd philosophical beliefs, there's a system of gardening called 'Biodynamics' that can help with polluted/and or non-viable soil to regain its ability to produce crops.

I live on 8 acres of a rice field in one of the few remaining sections of prairie left in the South. My particular area had its prairie grasses removed & plowed for the production of rice. This uses millions of tons of water compressing upon what is already a clay soil. Add insecticides & herbicides to that & it's a nightmare for growing crops. I did some research & found an institute for Biodynamic farming in Willits, CA. The philosophical ideas behind this method were begun by a European, Rudolph Steiner, and while his foray into other philosophies are considered somewhat odd, to say the least, his gardening principles, reclamation of the soil, bio-mass, etc. are strong & they work. It is/was popular in some areas of Europe, Switzerland, I believe. I've used it, but cannot sell the produce as organic due to the inherent nature of the soil. I would have to let the entire acreage revert back to prairie for a great length of time.

Sorry for the OT but there are methods to reclaim the soil, however, the primary drawback is that it can produce green manure & bio-mass, but it will take some time to produce vegetables & fruit. It's at its core sustainable agricultural methods, coupled with the need to return the soil to what we nutter gardeners call 'chocolate cake.' Sorry for the rant, but there are some options available to them.

 

[dotr]

Zwiebel, I just read the WSJ-article that you mentioned earlier.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/afte...and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532

Those poor villagers! The agony that they are going through already..... and on top of that Australian couple is arriving mad with grief.
I hope the burden of dealing with them befalls the OSCE or the army.
But please, spare the locals this disaster. That couple has been travelling from Australia to Amsterdam to the Ukraine, and nobody had the guts to stop them. In a world full of experts and authorities, hospitals, medication grief cousellors, you name it .... nobody stopped them!
They will collapse any moment and end up with the locals in a warzone.
The state is absent there, the structure is gone ... why does the world always count on "the locals" having an endless supply of empathy and compassion, and food to share even if their lives are harder than all of those concerned?


:noooo::noooo::noooo:

Had to get this off my chest.

Good point, everyone must be pushed to the limit. Hoping somehow, some way, some good can come out of this tragedy, but it cannot just be on the backs of those with enough burdens.imo.
Kudos to all the brave people who are helping the victims and their families.

 

[Donamena]

What would we do without Zweib & ZaZara to translate, & our trawlers of the Internet to collate all of the info from everywhere. You are, as we say in New Orleans, 'mos scocious.' Truly amazing. Another OT!!
:cheers:

 

[dotr]

At the risk of incurring groaning, due to this person's odd philosophical beliefs, there's a system of gardening called 'Biodynamics' that can help with polluted/and or non-viable soil to regain its ability to produce crops.

I live on 8 acres of a rice field in one of the few remaining sections of prairie left in the South. My particular area had its prairie grasses removed & plowed for the production of rice. This uses millions of tons of water compressing upon what is already a clay soil. Add insecticides & herbicides to that & it's a nightmare for growing crops. I did some research & found an institute for Biodynamic farming in Willits, CA. The philosophical ideas behind this method were begun by a European, Rudolph Steiner, and while his foray into other philosophies are considered somewhat odd, to say the least, his gardening principles, reclamation of the soil, bio-mass, etc. are strong & they work. It is/was popular in some areas of Europe, Switzerland, I believe. I've used it, but cannot sell the produce as organic due to the inherent nature of the soil. I would have to let the entire acreage revert back to prairie for a great length of time.

Sorry for the OT but there are methods to reclaim the soil, however, the primary drawback is that it can produce green manure & bio-mass, but it will take some time to produce vegetables & fruit. It's at its core sustainable agricultural methods, coupled with the need to return the soil to what we nutter gardeners call 'chocolate cake.' Sorry for the rant, but there are some options available to them.

Thanks for the very cool and uplifting info!

 

[hayaletcatcher]

BBM - ??

Sorry if one of Europe/Russian biggest News Networks is not good enough.

Doesn't change the fact that there was "No Russian Invasion"


All of this media propaganda is quickly pushing us further & further into a very dangerous situation

Of course it's not good enough when it comes to this subject, basic critical thinking. The RT is the biggest Russian news network because it's a PR machine for the Russian government to spin to the wider world. It's was started by Putin's press assistant and the media minister. They have some really interesting and thought provoking documentaries and discussions about the rest of the world and topics on our RT and I do sometimes watch them, but when it comes to Mother Russia, there is always spin. And recently the claims have come more and more outside of reality (ie claiming it was a Ukraine fighter jet, which the designer claims it can only reach 22,000? and or course Aksyonov)

No matter if you believe there was a Russian Invasion or not there is no denying they are trying to re adjust borders with some shady practices. I agree with you, the media is full of propaganda on both sides but no one is pushing it harder that RT.

RT is no solid source on this matter, that is all I was trying to point out. And this situation was already dangerous, for the people of certain parts of Eastern Europe at least...

imo

 

[hayaletcatcher]

In stark contrast to the Ukrainian 'beauty' (who hates everything Ukrainian she said, before having to delete her social media after the outrage she caused) who boasted about using looted mascara online, there is a very moving Wall Street Journal article here about the local villagers around the scene of the crash.

As I always suspected, these are self sufficient, strong and practical people. The local miners are accustomed to dealing with deaths and accidents, and the protocols involved. They were ready and able to help store passengers bodies and possessions safely, but waited in vain for any directions from the Russian backed rebels.

' "In mines, you don't remove a body until they investigate it," he says.'

'While most of the bodies have been removed from the crash site, the roughly 6,500 residents of the villages remain traumatized by what they saw, trapped by debris and passengers' belongings scattered across the local landscape. Pieces of other people's lives haunt their own.'

They are absolutely heartbroken. But they have managed to retrieve a large pile of belongings and the lady mayor, whose husband is a miner and helped find bodies, is keeping them safe.

'On Thursday, an elderly woman showed up at her office in tears and handed over a doll with the name Emma stitched in pink across its shirt. The woman was digging potatoes. Emma turned up instead.

Ms. Voloshina is keeping the doll in a purple plastic bag on top of a large pile of passenger belongings that villagers keep finding every day: suitcases, wallets, a USB cord, and on and on.

"We're keeping them, we're waiting," Ms. Voloshina she says. She vows to get Emma home.'

The article is long but well worth reading. Note how locals describe the emergency workers who rushed from Donetsk to put out the fires, while the rebels simply stood above them with guns, doing nothing. The photo shows wreckage in the mayor's relative's cabbage patch, a week after the crash.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/afte...and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532

This was so touching. Thanks for posting.

 

[ZaZara]

CBS reports:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-black-box-findings-consistent-with-blast/

Black box findings consistent with missile blast



Unreleased data from a black box retrieved from the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine show findings consistent with the plane's fuselage being hit multiple times by shrapnel from a missile explosion, CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports.

"It did what it was designed to do," a European air safety official told CBS News, "bring down airplanes."

The official described the finding as "massive explosive decompression."

BBM

 

[ZaZara]

FIRST IDENTIFICATION COMPLETED

NU.nl REPORTS:

http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/3838189/eerste-slachtoffer-vliegramp-mh17-geidentificeerd.html

Translation:


The first victim of the air disaster in Ukraine has been identified in the Korporaal van Oudheusdenkazerne in Hilversum. It concerns someone with the Dutch nationality. The Dept. of Security and Justice has made this known Saturday.

The family and the Mayor of the town of residence of the deceased have been notified. The identity of the Dutch victim will not be made public.

A team of more than two hundred specialists is currently working in Hilversum on the identification of the victims of the disaster. It may take months before all victims have been identified.