RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

Completely agree with the BBM.

Something is serious if you're trying to get a hold of your child's dr 3x after hours. The "I don't remember" doesn't really fly given how close this occured to the night of the murder.

My daughter is about to turn 17, and I still vividly remember the details from the one time I had to try and get a hold of her pediatrician after hours when she was 4 years old.

Was he ever questioned about those phone calls?

I doubt it. Had this case gone to trial, I would hope he would have been called as a witness. I don't know how much face time he had with LE.
 
Does anyone have any thoughts about JR stating there were alot of people there at 3 in the morning? Someone else had
Mentioned maybe they were lawyering up even before the 911 call. Everything I post is strictly MOO

Sure. Lots of people have thoughts. Some think it was just a "slip of the tongue". But many (including me) thing it was a "Freudian" slip. He said something he didn't mean to say. I will always believe what lies behind the "sealing" of the Rs phone records (including cell phone records, which conveniently "disappeared") was that they had made calls in the wee hours after JB was killed to lawyers/powerful friends. By the time police were called, the DA's office had already been given it's "instructions".
 
I thought the autopsy report said death was by asphyxiation. Which means all theories about an accidental or intentional head blow killing JB and the neck cord as a cover up are misguided. Intentional death by strangulation followed by a head bashing cover up is an entirely different thing. If I am wrong, please direct me to the correct autopsy report and I will stand corrected. Thank you

Actually, this is part of my theory. I think the head bash came first but simply rendered her unconscious and hanging on by a thin thread, but not dead yet. I think the staging with the cord around JBR's neck is what "finished her off", for lack of a better phrase. Whoever strangled her, IMHO, thought she was already dead. JMO!

I agree with one exception. I don't believe it was innocent curiosity. He had been caught before according to the housekeeper and his reaction was quite troubling IMO.

Patsy knew.

Yet it continued, as they allowed JonBenet to routinely crawl into his bed.

They likely blamed themselves, for not doing anything to protect her.

All IMO


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I agree with this.

Actually, I have a theory that all three were purposely involved, but no one wants to hear it. I tried to start a thread about it, but they denied me.

Sometimes you have to PM a moderator. They get backed up with new threads to approve, and they have to approve all new threads here. :)
 
Sure. Lots of people have thoughts. Some think it was just a "slip of the tongue". But many (including me) thing it was a "Freudian" slip. He said something he didn't mean to say. I will always believe what lies behind the "sealing" of the Rs phone records (including cell phone records, which conveniently "disappeared") was that they had made calls in the wee hours after JB was killed to lawyers/powerful friends. By the time police were called, the DA's office had already been given it's "instructions".

Thats what I thought too. But I still believe it was Patsy and Burke. I believe john really did go to bed and patsy and burke were still up with jonbenet. So maybe she had woke him and thats when the phone calls started. But the calls could have been made by Patsy herself while john was asleep. DOI was written mainly by john except a few pages by patsy. Just curious why she wouldnt have wanted to put more in herself... maybe scared she would out herself or give something away
 
A doctor generally can't be called as a witness to talk about a medical condition, but I'm not sure how it would work when the victim was dead and a minor.
 
Thats what I thought too. But I still believe it was Patsy and Burke. I believe john really did go to bed and patsy and burke were still up with jonbenet. So maybe she had woke him and thats when the phone calls started. But the calls could have been made by Patsy herself while john was asleep. DOI was written mainly by john except a few pages by patsy. Just curious why she wouldnt have wanted to put more in herself... maybe scared she would out herself or give something away
Everything is MOO
 
A doctor generally can't be called as a witness to talk about a medical condition, but I'm not sure how it would work when the victim was dead and a minor.
Statutory privilege allows certain individuals not to testify or provide information in certain proceedings. We've all heard about spousal privilege. That "statutory privilege" may also extend under certain circumstances to physicians, clergy, psychiatrists, psychologists, (and to a limited extent) public officers, accountants, and even victim's advocates. But that privilege is not extended in certain felony crimes. Colorado lays out this privilege in C.R.S. 13-90-107 (Who may not testify without consent). Then it lists crimes in which this privilege does not apply:

For circumstances in which the statutory privilege will not be allowed, see § § 18-3-102 (4) (Murder), 18-3-411 (5) (Sex offenses against children), 18-6-401 (3) (Child abuse), 18-6-401.1 (Child abuse), and 18-6.5-104 (Crime committed against an at-risk adult or an at-risk juvenile).

My understanding from other sources is that this privilege extends after death, or it might be even be passed on to the person's heirs -- unless of course it is in the prosecution of the same felonies that are excluded otherwise.
 
I agree with one exception. I don't believe it was innocent curiosity. He had been caught before according to the housekeeper and his reaction was quite troubling IMO.

Patsy knew.

Yet it continued, as they allowed JonBenet to routinely crawl into his bed.

They likely blamed themselves, for not doing anything to protect her.

All IMO


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I searched a solid hour for this info and came up empty, may I please have a link to this info?
 
So lately, BDI and it was covered up has been my main theory. But PDI has been brought up in here with JR not knowing until maybe after he reads the RN.
Not many post about JDI. I'm just wondering if anyone has a JDI theory, or wants to talk about JDI. BDI and PDI have been the most talked about lately, I'd like to get some opinions on a JDI.

Sorry to respond so late here, Venom. Just had to search through some notes. I think it was Bettybaby who noted that Kolar likely intentionally flags questions he has in regards to JR’s statements. Does it appear that he features JR unnecessarily? Kolar was very careful in writing this book, so it just seemed as though the documentation about JR’s statements was purposeful.

As far as forensic evidence, first question about JR’s role is the discussion in an interview about the black fibers found in JB’s underwear. I questioned it previously until I read JR’s Tale of the Laundry essay. Moo, it confirmed he was pointing away from having worn his new black wool shirt in the basement. Had he just said I hung up my shirt that night when I got dressed for bed it would have been more believable. (For me, it sounded as though he wanted to provide an “innocent” reason for black shirt fibers in the basement, in case LE had some evidence about them at the crime scene.)

And some other questions raising my awareness of JR’s possible involvement, at least in staging, concerned fibers. Obviously, there is a reason police review crime scenes for fibers, trying to determine whose fibers have been left in incriminating places.

Besides PR’s jacket fibers. Kolar also points out some evidence of brown fibers. Brown cotton fibers had been found on four items closely associated with the body of JonBenét and implements used in her murder. Lab technicians thought the fibers similar to a pair of cotton work gloves. (FF, 3023-3024)

Here is the dialogue between attorneys and PR about gardening gloves June ‘98:
. Did you own gardening gloves?
2 A. I don't think so, no.
3 Q. Do you recall ever seeing in your
4 house brown kind of work gloves, cotton?
5 A. Brown cotton? John had -- I
6 don't remember brown work gloves.

7 Q. Can you picture what I am talking
8 about?
9 MR. WOOD: Do you have a photo
10 maybe or something?
~Snipped~ for brevity long questioning by LW about what these gloves looked like.
4 CHIEF BECKNER: Before we go too
5 far, for clarification for me, when you were
6 asked about wearing garden gloves, you said
7 not usually, I believe. Does that mean
8 sometimes you would?
9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
10 doing that. I mean, I do wear them now
11 because now I am wearing these funny
12 fingernails, I don't want to get them messed
13 up, but I don't think I was doing it then.
14 So I don't, I don't ever remember -- I am
15 not a big gardener, so I didn't have all of
16 the trappings, you know, all of that stuff.
17 So I do not remember having any gardening
18 gloves.
19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You started to say
20 that John had. John had what?
~Snipped ~ for brevity LW questioning Kane’s question
11 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Now that you've
12 had time to think about it for a minute,
13 what did John have?
14 A. What kind of gloves did he have?
15 Q. What were you about to say? You
16 said John had.
17 A. John had ski gloves.


Now here’s JR’s Interview in 2000 about gloves
9 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I am interested,
15 if you would, please tell us what types, if
16 any, work gloves you own, whether you kept
17 them in the house, on the plane, in the car,
18 it doesn't matter, but just identify them by
19 their location.
20 A. I don't remember that I owned any
21 work gloves. I don't normally wear work
22 gloves.

23 Q. So just to clarify, you are
24 saying that your recollection is that you did
25 not or you are just unsure because of the
0052
1 passage of time?
2 A. I don't remember. I mean, I
3 don't normally wear work gloves. I've had
4 work gloves from time to time, but I
5 don't -- I can't specifically remember that I
6 had any then or if I did what they were
7 like.
8 I had a pair here that were gray,
9 and I bought those at Home Depot, and God
10 knows where they are now. So they kind of
11 come and go.
12 Q. So it wasn't your routine habit
13 or practice to keep a pair of work gloves in
14 your cars if you needed to change a tire
15 or --
16 A. (Witness shook head negatively).

Comparing PR’s statements to JR’s it appeared that PR stopped herself from talking about JR’s gloves. Then LW launches and PR comes up with ski gloves. In JR’s Interview, he claims he doesn’t normally wear them. He had a pair of gray ones he bought at Home Depot, and he has no idea where they are. So PR doesn’t own any and JR doesn’t normally wear them. (But the ones he owns currently are gray anyway. Did someone clue him in that LE were interested in brown gloves?)

All this doesn’t provide “proof” of any involvement, but I doubt that BR wore gloves that night. PR’s quick answer seems more convincing as to not owning all the gardening “trappings” like gloves. So make your own deductions who, in the household, that leaves.

Pertaining to fibers one last thought. LE had wanted to serve warrants on the Rs’ clothing worn the evening of the 25th. The following is a pretty good example of how deeply the RST tried to bury the whole story, even about details confirmed by national experts – JB’s vaginal injuries.

BPD did not receive the Rs’clothing for about a year after the crime, even though the detectives asked for it. Here’s what ST writes: Even more devastating than the time delay on the jacket was the deal that was made to get the clothing. Beckner told us the asking price: the evidence photographs of the Ramseys in December, full access to all exculpatory evidence concerning the Ramseys, and for the police department to state publicly that there had been no evidence of prior vaginal abuse of JonBenét. They did get some photos out of it. We would have preferred to get the clothing through a search warrant that was already in preparation by Detective Kim Stewart, but that one never got off the ground either.

That chronic sexual abuse sure did and still does throw a monkey wrench into the intruder theory. I’d forgotten the RST did try to bury it.

All of the above MHO.
 
Sorry to respond so late here, Venom. Just had to search through some notes. I think it was Bettybaby who noted that Kolar likely intentionally flags questions he has in regards to JR’s statements. Does it appear that he features JR unnecessarily? Kolar was very careful in writing this book, so it just seemed as though the documentation about JR’s statements was purposeful.

As far as forensic evidence, first question about JR’s role is the discussion in an interview about the black fibers found in JB’s underwear. I questioned it previously until I read JR’s Tale of the Laundry essay. Moo, it confirmed he was pointing away from having worn his new black wool shirt in the basement. Had he just said I hung up my shirt that night when I got dressed for bed it would have been more believable. (For me, it sounded as though he wanted to provide an “innocent” reason for black shirt fibers in the basement, in case LE had some evidence about them at the crime scene.)

And some other questions raising my awareness of JR’s possible involvement, at least in staging, concerned fibers. Obviously, there is a reason police review crime scenes for fibers, trying to determine whose fibers have been left in incriminating places.

Besides PR’s jacket fibers. Kolar also points out some evidence of brown fibers. Brown cotton fibers had been found on four items closely associated with the body of JonBenét and implements used in her murder. Lab technicians thought the fibers similar to a pair of cotton work gloves. (FF, 3023-3024)

Here is the dialogue between attorneys and PR about gardening gloves June ‘98:
. Did you own gardening gloves?
2 A. I don't think so, no.
3 Q. Do you recall ever seeing in your
4 house brown kind of work gloves, cotton?
5 A. Brown cotton? John had -- I
6 don't remember brown work gloves.

7 Q. Can you picture what I am talking
8 about?
9 MR. WOOD: Do you have a photo
10 maybe or something?
~Snipped~ for brevity long questioning by LW about what these gloves looked like.
4 CHIEF BECKNER: Before we go too
5 far, for clarification for me, when you were
6 asked about wearing garden gloves, you said
7 not usually, I believe. Does that mean
8 sometimes you would?
9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
10 doing that. I mean, I do wear them now
11 because now I am wearing these funny
12 fingernails, I don't want to get them messed
13 up, but I don't think I was doing it then.
14 So I don't, I don't ever remember -- I am
15 not a big gardener, so I didn't have all of
16 the trappings, you know, all of that stuff.
17 So I do not remember having any gardening
18 gloves.
19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You started to say
20 that John had. John had what?
~Snipped ~ for brevity LW questioning Kane’s question
11 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Now that you've
12 had time to think about it for a minute,
13 what did John have?
14 A. What kind of gloves did he have?
15 Q. What were you about to say? You
16 said John had.
17 A. John had ski gloves.


Now here’s JR’s Interview in 2000 about gloves
9 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I am interested,
15 if you would, please tell us what types, if
16 any, work gloves you own, whether you kept
17 them in the house, on the plane, in the car,
18 it doesn't matter, but just identify them by
19 their location.
20 A. I don't remember that I owned any
21 work gloves. I don't normally wear work
22 gloves.

23 Q. So just to clarify, you are
24 saying that your recollection is that you did
25 not or you are just unsure because of the
0052
1 passage of time?
2 A. I don't remember. I mean, I
3 don't normally wear work gloves. I've had
4 work gloves from time to time, but I
5 don't -- I can't specifically remember that I
6 had any then or if I did what they were
7 like.
8 I had a pair here that were gray,
9 and I bought those at Home Depot, and God
10 knows where they are now. So they kind of
11 come and go.
12 Q. So it wasn't your routine habit
13 or practice to keep a pair of work gloves in
14 your cars if you needed to change a tire
15 or --
16 A. (Witness shook head negatively).

Comparing PR’s statements to JR’s it appeared that PR stopped herself from talking about JR’s gloves. Then LW launches and PR comes up with ski gloves. In JR’s Interview, he claims he doesn’t normally wear them. He had a pair of gray ones he bought at Home Depot, and he has no idea where they are. So PR doesn’t own any and JR doesn’t normally wear them. (But the ones he owns currently are gray anyway. Did someone clue him in that LE were interested in brown gloves?)

All this doesn’t provide “proof” of any involvement, but I doubt that BR wore gloves that night. PR’s quick answer seems more convincing as to not owning all the gardening “trappings” like gloves. So make your own deductions who, in the household, that leaves.

Pertaining to fibers one last thought. LE had wanted to serve warrants on the Rs’ clothing worn the evening of the 25th. The following is a pretty good example of how deeply the RST tried to bury the whole story, even about details confirmed by national experts – JB’s vaginal injuries.

BPD did not receive the Rs’clothing for about a year after the crime, even though the detectives asked for it. Here’s what ST writes: Even more devastating than the time delay on the jacket was the deal that was made to get the clothing. Beckner told us the asking price: the evidence photographs of the Ramseys in December, full access to all exculpatory evidence concerning the Ramseys, and for the police department to state publicly that there had been no evidence of prior vaginal abuse of JonBenét. They did get some photos out of it. We would have preferred to get the clothing through a search warrant that was already in preparation by Detective Kim Stewart, but that one never got off the ground either.

That chronic sexual abuse sure did and still does throw a monkey wrench into the intruder theory. I’d forgotten the RST did try to bury it.

All of the above MHO.

Your last bolded segment....I just don't get it??? Why these concessions were made is beyond crazy, and it reinforces that in this case, lawyering up was not the act of an innocent family. These lawyers weren't hired to just simply "advise" their clients while being interviewed by police, and it's why the argument this was all normal, expected behavior doesn't fly IMO.

I had another thought while reading your post. Moving from their home (which I actually do find reasonable) certainly helps foster the "I can't recall mantra." All the "I can't recall" answers become more believable when you factor in that they left that house, and never returned. I feel pretty confident in assuming that the Rs didn't even pack up the house before they permanently moved out. This offered no chance for anyone in the family to possibly come across something that could have been relative to the case. The Rs wealth afforded them quite a few advantages compared to the average Joe. I'm not critizing them for this, just an observation.
 
Sorry to respond so late here, Venom. Just had to search through some notes. I think it was Bettybaby who noted that Kolar likely intentionally flags questions he has in regards to JR’s statements. Does it appear that he features JR unnecessarily? Kolar was very careful in writing this book, so it just seemed as though the documentation about JR’s statements was purposeful.

As far as forensic evidence, first question about JR’s role is the discussion in an interview about the black fibers found in JB’s underwear. I questioned it previously until I read JR’s Tale of the Laundry essay. Moo, it confirmed he was pointing away from having worn his new black wool shirt in the basement. Had he just said I hung up my shirt that night when I got dressed for bed it would have been more believable. (For me, it sounded as though he wanted to provide an “innocent” reason for black shirt fibers in the basement, in case LE had some evidence about them at the crime scene.)

And some other questions raising my awareness of JR’s possible involvement, at least in staging, concerned fibers. Obviously, there is a reason police review crime scenes for fibers, trying to determine whose fibers have been left in incriminating places.

Besides PR’s jacket fibers. Kolar also points out some evidence of brown fibers. Brown cotton fibers had been found on four items closely associated with the body of JonBenét and implements used in her murder. Lab technicians thought the fibers similar to a pair of cotton work gloves. (FF, 3023-3024)

Here is the dialogue between attorneys and PR about gardening gloves June ‘98:
. Did you own gardening gloves?
2 A. I don't think so, no.
3 Q. Do you recall ever seeing in your
4 house brown kind of work gloves, cotton?
5 A. Brown cotton? John had -- I
6 don't remember brown work gloves.

7 Q. Can you picture what I am talking
8 about?
9 MR. WOOD: Do you have a photo
10 maybe or something?
~Snipped~ for brevity long questioning by LW about what these gloves looked like.
4 CHIEF BECKNER: Before we go too
5 far, for clarification for me, when you were
6 asked about wearing garden gloves, you said
7 not usually, I believe. Does that mean
8 sometimes you would?
9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
10 doing that. I mean, I do wear them now
11 because now I am wearing these funny
12 fingernails, I don't want to get them messed
13 up, but I don't think I was doing it then.
14 So I don't, I don't ever remember -- I am
15 not a big gardener, so I didn't have all of
16 the trappings, you know, all of that stuff.
17 So I do not remember having any gardening
18 gloves.
19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You started to say
20 that John had. John had what?
~Snipped ~ for brevity LW questioning Kane’s question
11 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Now that you've
12 had time to think about it for a minute,
13 what did John have?
14 A. What kind of gloves did he have?
15 Q. What were you about to say? You
16 said John had.
17 A. John had ski gloves.


Now here’s JR’s Interview in 2000 about gloves
9 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I am interested,
15 if you would, please tell us what types, if
16 any, work gloves you own, whether you kept
17 them in the house, on the plane, in the car,
18 it doesn't matter, but just identify them by
19 their location.
20 A. I don't remember that I owned any
21 work gloves. I don't normally wear work
22 gloves.

23 Q. So just to clarify, you are
24 saying that your recollection is that you did
25 not or you are just unsure because of the
0052
1 passage of time?
2 A. I don't remember. I mean, I
3 don't normally wear work gloves. I've had
4 work gloves from time to time, but I
5 don't -- I can't specifically remember that I
6 had any then or if I did what they were
7 like.
8 I had a pair here that were gray,
9 and I bought those at Home Depot, and God
10 knows where they are now. So they kind of
11 come and go.
12 Q. So it wasn't your routine habit
13 or practice to keep a pair of work gloves in
14 your cars if you needed to change a tire
15 or --
16 A. (Witness shook head negatively).

Comparing PR’s statements to JR’s it appeared that PR stopped herself from talking about JR’s gloves. Then LW launches and PR comes up with ski gloves. In JR’s Interview, he claims he doesn’t normally wear them. He had a pair of gray ones he bought at Home Depot, and he has no idea where they are. So PR doesn’t own any and JR doesn’t normally wear them. (But the ones he owns currently are gray anyway. Did someone clue him in that LE were interested in brown gloves?)

All this doesn’t provide “proof” of any involvement, but I doubt that BR wore gloves that night. PR’s quick answer seems more convincing as to not owning all the gardening “trappings” like gloves. So make your own deductions who, in the household, that leaves.

Pertaining to fibers one last thought. LE had wanted to serve warrants on the Rs’ clothing worn the evening of the 25th. The following is a pretty good example of how deeply the RST tried to bury the whole story, even about details confirmed by national experts – JB’s vaginal injuries.

BPD did not receive the Rs’clothing for about a year after the crime, even though the detectives asked for it. Here’s what ST writes: Even more devastating than the time delay on the jacket was the deal that was made to get the clothing. Beckner told us the asking price: the evidence photographs of the Ramseys in December, full access to all exculpatory evidence concerning the Ramseys, and for the police department to state publicly that there had been no evidence of prior vaginal abuse of JonBenét. They did get some photos out of it. We would have preferred to get the clothing through a search warrant that was already in preparation by Detective Kim Stewart, but that one never got off the ground either.

That chronic sexual abuse sure did and still does throw a monkey wrench into the intruder theory. I’d forgotten the RST did try to bury it.


All of the above MHO.

Thanks questfortrue. BBM, Again, who is able to bargain with police over handing over evidence and interviews? It's absurd when you really think about it. Why were the R's so worried about what evidence the BPD had specifically against them? Why did they have to have those evidence pictures of themselves? They were a little too worried to me. All mho.
 
Thanks questfortrue. BBM, Again, who is able to bargain with police over handing over evidence and interviews? It's absurd when you really think about it. Why were the R's so worried about what evidence the BPD had specifically against them? Why did they have to have those evidence pictures of themselves? They were a little too worried to me. All mho.

They expected to be arrested straight away. They were building their defense from day one. IMO
 
When Kolar realized this, his red flags burst into flames!

Remember the comment John made about the private investigators he employed (they his lawyers) that their job was to build a defense, NOT find the intruder that killed his baby?

My head exploded right then. Flames everywhere!
 
Remember the comment John made about the private investigators he employed (they his lawyers) that their job was to build a defense, NOT find the intruder that killed his baby?

Especially surprising since finding and bringing an intruder suspect to the police would be the best defense possible!
 
Oh ick :facepalm:
Sometimes I really hate this case...

Horrible, I know. It affects me the same way. But this is, I speculate, the reason at the core of the R cover-up. Its horribleness. Some on our forums have worked with victims of sexual abuse and will attest how difficult it is for a family to deal with. If it’s a wealthy family with prestige in the community, the family would have so much to lose. During a child’s life, it becomes about protecting their status quo, and the protection of the familial dysfunction is absolutely critical. Consider what it might be like for a loving mother if a beloved sibling were responsible (or if it involved the husband and breadwinner). Sometimes, equally as tragic, if a mother has her own past issues which are unresolved, she might even direct some blame towards the child. IIRC, PR discussed her concerns with PA (pilot’s wife) about JB being “too friendly.” “Too flirty.”

If this head strike did occur in the context of a sexual assault, then what had been left unaddressed while the child was alive, absolutely can’t be acknowledged after her death. The Rs would see it as the ruin of them all, for it to be part of the record of their child’s death. And, as Linda7nj points out, they likely already had guilt over not protecting her.

I view Kolar’s attempt to factually describe SBP and to at least consider that it could have played a role in JB’s death, as a brave measure. Here’s how he describes the effort that must be undertaken on behalf of a child: “As criminal investigators, it is our chosen duty to go willingly into the breach in defense of the weak and the powerless: to stand tall in the face of adversity, and to seek the truth no matter where the course may lead.”

mho
 

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