PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, well, if you were buying rare antiques, would you want the people around you to know they were rare? Valuable?
And I don't mean 20th century toys..

I can only list what friends and associates have said he was interested in collecting. Those are cameras and toys from the 1940's-50's.

Please give a little bit in discussing this case with me. Lately, I say "white" so you say " black" and vice versa.
It used to be such a lovely and productive discussion. I miss those many years.

I think it can be productive, but that doesn't mean that everyone should agree.

In this case, stamps can be a great investment, and there are rare single stamps that are sold for thousands or millions of dollars. The problem is, you can't go to the local pawnshop and get that, or go to the "stamp broker," and have him sell it on the "stamp exchange," because the local stamp store is rare and the there is no equivalent to a stock exchange for stamps.

Gold, for example, is much easier to sell. To give an example, I drove 5-6 miles yesterday for a doctor's appointment. I passed at least two stores that said "we buy gold," on a sign in front of their store. I didn't drive through the major commercial areas of Philadelphia. If I had 10 one Troy ounce bars (which would all together weigh less than a pound), I could sell them and get cash. If I had several stamps that were worth about the same, I could not sell them there.

Diamonds might be another example of something lightweight and easily sold.

 

[BigCat]

Diamonds might be another example of something lightweight and easily sold.

Respectfully snipped

In the movie The Counselor the villain steals millions of dollars and then converts the cash to diamonds. At least she did in the script. A lot of the script was left out in the filming.

 

[MissJ]

Ever felt like walking away from your life? I have but I was wanting to walk away from a financially draining, baby of a husband, his disrespectful children and his loony mother. I just don't see what RFG was running from. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

In the movie The Counselor the villain steals millions of dollars and then converts the cash to diamonds. At least she did in the script. A lot of the script was left out in the filming.

I think we might have come full circle, because I remember this discussion from many years ago. If someone attempts large cash transactions, $10,000, it has to be reported. In other words, if I wanted to buy a car and took $25 K out of the bank, and paid the seller $25 K in cash, he would have to report it.

If RFG, or anyone else, paid a jeweler $25 K in cash for a diamond, the jeweler would have to report it. RFG, or anyone else could use a cashier's check, or a credit card, or even a personal check, and that would not trigger it. It would leave a paper trail.

Conversely, if RFG, or anyone else, would buy 20 Troy ounces of gold at $300/T Oz on a Monday from Dealer A, he would have spent $6000. He could go to Dealer B, down the street, buy another 20 T Oz for $6000. Next week, he could do the same thing. He could pay cash and there would be no paper trail. It would take about two weeks to move the same amount of money into gold, but with no paper trail.

You can figure that he, or anyone else, could move $90 K into gold in 2-3 months; the weight would be about 20 standard pounds. It would be 300 Troy ounces.

Now someone doing that would not have to pay any taxes on it, until sold. It would not show up on the financial disclosure statements because it isn't producing income. If it is still sitting in a safe deposit box when the estate is probated, it would be an estate asset.

Further, I don't know about diamonds, but gold had increased in value in the early 2000. That hypothetical 300 T Oz that cost $90 k would be worth $132 k in 2005.

In theory, it is possible. Possible is not evidence.

 

[Fluffy Puppy]

I am not as familiar with many of the details of this saga as most of you, but every time the conversation comes up that he died with very little in assets, I wonder: do we know what assets he had that were NOT part of the estate? If Ray held accounts jointly with anyone, those accounts would not be part of his estate. Like joint accounts with his daughter?

And continued thanks to those of you that keep this conversation alive. I am convinced that someday there will be answers.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am not as familiar with many of the details of this saga as most of you, but every time the conversation comes up that he died with very little in assets, I wonder: do we know what assets he had that were NOT part of the estate? If Ray held accounts jointly with anyone, those accounts would not be part of his estate. Like joint accounts with his daughter?

And continued thanks to those of you that keep this conversation alive. I am convinced that someday there will be answers.

Under PA law, each person on the account would be an equal owner. So if RFG had a joint account with his daughter that had $50,000 in it, it would be counted for estate purposes as an estate asset of $25,000. We know that the estate was worth less than $25 K, because there was reporting required for more than that amount. If it was all in joint accounts, RFG would have something less than $50 K. That is still a small estate, but there were some legitimate expenses as well. They really do not account for why the estate is so small.

 

[Fluffy Puppy]

Under PA law, each person on the account would be an equal owner. So if RFG had a joint account with his daughter that had $50,000 in it, it would be counted for estate purposes as an estate asset of $25,000. We know that the estate was worth less than $25 K, because there was reporting required for more than that amount. If it was all in joint accounts, RFG would have something less than $50 K. That is still a small estate, but there were some legitimate expenses as well. They really do not account for why the estate is so small.

That is not the case with PA law - the joint owner usually gets right of survivorship and they are entitled to the entire balance of the account and it does not get distributed through the estate of the deceased, and I can give you citations for that. In an example of joint with his daughter, the entire balance would be the property of his daughter without passing through the estate - hence my question.

However, for PA TAX law I believe Ray's estate would still be on the hook for taxes due on 50% of the account. (thus closing the obvious estate tax loophole), perhaps that is what you are referring to.

Is this conversation about his assets referring to the deceased's tax accounting or what property is to be distributed ( a will, for example)? I don't know what documents are public. If what the public sees is something that totals his assets for tax purposes, you are right, 50% of a two person account might be listed there.

Or maybe things have changed, but I don't think so. Or perhaps it is just semantics. Thanks!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That is not the case with PA law - the joint owner usually gets right of survivorship and they are entitled to the entire balance of the account and it does not get distributed through the estate of the deceased, and I can give you citations for that. In an example of joint with his daughter, the entire balance would be the property of his daughter without passing through the estate - hence my question.

However, for PA TAX law I believe Ray's estate would still be on the hook for taxes due on 50% of the account. (thus closing the obvious estate tax loophole), perhaps that is what you are referring to.

Is this conversation about his assets referring to the deceased's tax accounting or what property is to be distributed ( a will, for example)? I don't know what documents are public. If what the public sees is something that totals his assets for tax purposes, you are right, 50% of a two person account might be listed there.

Or maybe things have changed, but I don't think so. Or perhaps it is just semantics. Thanks!

I'm talking about the taxable portion of the estate (and I went through that in 2007). Half should be credited to the estate, though without a will, his daughter would get it all. It might be semantics.

If RFG had an account with LG for $50 k, it would be treated as he being the half owner of that $50 K, i.e. $25 K. When LG went to pay taxes on it, she would pay 7.5% (I think) of the value of the $25 K, or $1,875. So LG would get $48,125, but the estate would show $25 K in assets and there would be $50 K in the account before taxes. It would be the same even if she didn't put as much as one dollar into the account.

There are a number of reasons to set up a joint account with a parent/adult child, but an inheritance tax saving is one of them. It is not unusual, especially when there is no spouse in the picture.

For the record, my mother died before I was in my teens. The age gap between myself and my father was about 5 years greater than LG and RFG. When I turned 18, he put me on all of his accounts, for the stated reasons of inheritance taxes and in case he became incapacitated and couldn't sign checks.

My father actually was slightly upset when I opened a bank account, with my own money, and did not put his name on it, because he would have to pay about $50 inheritance taxes on it if I'd die.

 

[Fluffy Puppy]

I'm talking about the taxable portion of the estate (and I went through that in 2007). Half should be credited to the estate, though without a will, his daughter would get it all. It might be semantics.

If RFG had an account with LG for $50 k, it would be treated as he being the half owner of that $50 K, i.e. $25 K. When LG went to pay taxes on it, she would pay 7.5% (I think) of the value of the $25 K, or $1,875. So LG would get $48,125, but the estate would show $25 K in assets and there would be $50 K in the account before taxes. It would be the same even if she didn't put as much as one dollar into the account.

There are a number of reasons to set up a joint account with a parent/adult child, but an inheritance tax saving is one of them. It is not unusual, especially when there is no spouse in the picture.

For the record, my mother died before I was in my teens. The age gap between myself and my father was about 5 years greater than LG and RFG. When I turned 18, he put me on all of his accounts, for the stated reasons of inheritance taxes and in case he became incapacitated and couldn't sign checks.

My father actually was slightly upset when I opened a bank account, with my own money, and did not put his name on it, because he would have to pay about $50 inheritance taxes on it if I'd die.

Not entirely accurate, even a non-spouse joint account in PA usually goes wholly to the surviving owner and cannot be redistributed through a will (this is the common treatment it can be excepted through specially executed documents of title). This I know by profession, JJ, and am fairly sure of it unless, like I said, we are disconnecting on semantics.

Ownership of the account balance and taxes on the account balance are distinct things here, though.

After death, property often does change hands outside of an estate, usually based on titled ownership JJ, and joint accounts are one of those things. A joint account does not become part of the assets of the estate, it passes without probate - this does NOT mean it is exempt from taxes which is a different matter and why I asked. Just like your father said, lol, smart man. (and fwiw, I am not talking about spousal accounts since that is not in play here, that is also different_)

Therefore, I still think it is possible that he had joint accounts with others that included joint assets not known to the public, but like I said, I am not as familiar with the details as you. The only thing that would clear this off my possibility list would be if there were some kind of documentation that required these to be disclosed. Maybe an estate tax return?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit.

I am not as familiar with many of the details of this saga as most of you, but every time the conversation comes up that he died with very little in assets, I wonder: do we know what assets he had that were NOT part of the estate?

A thread or so back we discussed some possibilities of estate planning. There are a few methods that RFG could use that would create an asset that:

A. His heirs would get it, but it wouldn't show up in his estate.

B. It would generate anything reportable on his financial disclosure statement.

One possibility is an irrevocable trust (though his heirs would have income tax on the interest, I think).

Another is a single premium life insurance policy.

There are two problems with either:

1. Most things like that would tie up a lot of funds, i.e. a $200 K face value life policy might cost a bit over $100 K. RFG could not use it in retirement.

2. Some of the family, not without justification, have stressed the possibility of suicide. RFG taking steps that would be estate planning would certainly add weight to that possibility. Some things, the joint accounts, putting the Mini in PEF's name, could point to informal estate planning. The family, certainly RFG's nephew Tony, could point to actual estate planning to bolster the possibility. In 9+ years, they have not.

The money situation points something voluntary, and it does so fairly strongly. Both suicide and walkaway are "something voluntary."

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped

Not entirely accurate, even a non-spouse joint account in PA usually goes wholly to the surviving owner and cannot be redistributed through a will (this is the common treatment it can be excepted through specially executed documents of title). This I know by profession, JJ, and am fairly sure of it unless, like I said, we are disconnecting on semantics.

We might be arguing over semantics. I'm not sure.

We have his REV-1547 which showed joint property of $1,057. There were some high expenses, but there were presumably high attorney costs over the years. His REV-1500 showed nothing other than this was the original return. I can post them.

We also have his financial disclosure statements, which showed he no single source income (other than his salary) above $1300 in 2004 and 2005. I can post them, though I think those are up on a previous thread.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

New article on Centre County cold cases: http://www.centredaily.com/2014/08/09/4298863/investigators-still-pursue-answers.html

The "most publicized mystery in Centre County," is of course the RFG disappearance.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The REV-1547 form is here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...onte-15-April-2005-12&p=10010872#post10010872

The REV-1500 form is here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...12&p=10009739&highlight=REV-1500#post10009739

RFG's Statements of Financial Interests, for the years 2004 and 2005 (filed the next year), are under my photo section on my profile.

 

[Aphra]

You know, I drove through Lewisburg, PA a few months ago, and one of the things I didn't realize was that there's a maximum security prison in Lewisburg. Is it possible that Ray Gricar was meeting with someone associated with the prison and one of his cases? I know he wasn't a federal prosecutor, so it's probably unlikely that it was one of his *direct* cases. Or perhaps he ran into an associate of someone who was locked up in Lewisburg, there was an altercation...

I just can't help thinking that this whole thing is linked to the Lewisburg prison somehow. I just can't quite put my finger on it. I don't think he committed suicide. I think somehow, someone associated with the Lewisburg prison and one of his past cases got a hold of him. It may be why he had his laptop with him. Have they associated any links with anyone Ray Gricar may have previously prosecuted who was now in a federal prison? (Again...I know he was a county prosecutor...but surely someone he prosecuted at some point ended up in a federal prison.)

Anyway, just my two cents. I'm sure this link has been investigated (although I've never read about it in any articles I've read about Gricar.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The prison itself was out of his jurisdiction.

There was not any indications (e-mail, notes, calendar entries) indicating that he was going to an official meeting.

USP Allenwood, and the "county club prison," FCI Allenwood, are about 12-14 miles up the road from where the car was found. As the name indicates, both are federal prisons.

There is SCI Muncy, about 20-22 miles from Lewisburg. It is a state women's prison.

I am fairly certain that they all would have had a record of him showing up, if he did.

 

[MissJ]

You know, I drove through Lewisburg, PA a few months ago, and one of the things I didn't realize was that there's a maximum security prison in Lewisburg. Is it possible that Ray Gricar was meeting with someone associated with the prison and one of his cases? I know he wasn't a federal prosecutor, so it's probably unlikely that it was one of his *direct* cases. Or perhaps he ran into an associate of someone who was locked up in Lewisburg, there was an altercation...

I just can't help thinking that this whole thing is linked to the Lewisburg prison somehow. I just can't quite put my finger on it. I don't think he committed suicide. I think somehow, someone associated with the Lewisburg prison and one of his past cases got a hold of him. It may be why he had his laptop with him. Have they associated any links with anyone Ray Gricar may have previously prosecuted who was now in a federal prison? (Again...I know he was a county prosecutor...but surely someone he prosecuted at some point ended up in a federal prison.)

Anyway, just my two cents. I'm sure this link has been investigated (although I've never read about it in any articles I've read about Gricar.)

Good post.

 

[Aphra]

The prison itself was out of his jurisdiction.

There was not any indications (e-mail, notes, calendar entries) indicating that he was going to an official meeting.

USP Allenwood, and the "county club prison," FCI Allenwood, are about 12-14 miles up the road from where the car was found. As the name indicates, both are federal prisons.

There is SCI Muncy, about 20-22 miles from Lewisburg. It is a state women's prison.

I am fairly certain that they all would have had a record of him showing up, if he did.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was going to an official meeting. I don't. I know it was out of his jurisdiction. I'm not even saying that he went to any formal meeting at the prison. I don't think he went to the prison that day. Rather, something may have happened informally or even coincidentally, where he might have run into someone or had an "unofficial" meeting in downtown Lewisburg. But I definitely think there could be some connection with his disappearance and one of the prisons in Lewisburg. He ran into someone who for some reason had a problem with him, whether he knew it or not.

 

[Fluffy Puppy]

The REV-1547 form is here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...onte-15-April-2005-12&p=10010872#post10010872

The REV-1500 form is here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...12&p=10009739&highlight=REV-1500#post10009739

RFG's Statements of Financial Interests, for the years 2004 and 2005 (filed the next year), are under my photo section on my profile.

Thank you so much, JJ, you are such a fantastic source on this case. The REV-1547 is interesting, but one can specifically ask to have taxes handled on joint accounts separate from this form, I would think if privacy was a concern that could occur - so it is not necessarily conclusive. The large estate expenses are interesting especially with nothing listed.

One way or the other, this info is interesting to me. Either he truly had nothing to report or there are other accounts they handled differently, with other methods. The first is very curious, the second would merely be a personal choice, I would think.

Thanks so much, again. Keep looking, keep posting!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was going to an official meeting. I don't. I know it was out of his jurisdiction. I'm not even saying that he went to any formal meeting at the prison. I don't think he went to the prison that day. Rather, something may have happened informally or even coincidentally, where he might have run into someone or had an "unofficial" meeting in downtown Lewisburg. But I definitely think there could be some connection with his disappearance and one of the prisons in Lewisburg. He ran into someone who for some reason had a problem with him, whether he knew it or not.

RFG was acting unusually for about 4-5 weeks, at least, prior to his disappearance. It looks like something was bothering him. That cuts down the odds that it some random encounter.

RFG told his girlfriend, PEF, that he was taking the day off. If he was going to Lewisburg for some other reason, he was not telling her or the staff.

 

[BigCat]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was going to an official meeting. I don't. I know it was out of his jurisdiction. I'm not even saying that he went to any formal meeting at the prison. I don't think he went to the prison that day. Rather, something may have happened informally or even coincidentally, where he might have run into someone or had an "unofficial" meeting in downtown Lewisburg. But I definitely think there could be some connection with his disappearance and one of the prisons in Lewisburg. He ran into someone who for some reason had a problem with him, whether he knew it or not.

No sign of a body, no crime scene, and his hard drive and computer were found in the river. If foul play is the reason for RFG's disappearance, then it was well-planned. Not a random encounter, IMO.