Identified! PA - Philadelphia, 'Boy in the Box', WhtMale 4-6, 4UMPA, Feb'57

[Ms Suzanne]

This is great. I'm curious was this the only paper that wrote his story? I wonder why and who suggested New York write his story. I wish they would do another article in the newspaper in Philadelphia too.I am glad his picture in the flyer was in this newspaper article.I am so glad they did this for him. He needs more publicity like this. I am convinced some one knows who he is.

 

[delirious1]

This is great. I'm curious was this the only paper that wrote his story? I wonder why and who suggested New York write his story. I wish they would do another article in the newspaper in Philadelphia too.I am glad his picture in the flyer was in this newspaper article.I am so glad they did this for him. He needs more publicity like this. I am convinced some one knows who he is.

Can someone remind me who Terri Lee Speece was?
Was he the roofers son?
Have we seen a picture of this boy to see if he actually looked like our boy?

 

[Little Jedi]

Can someone remind me who Terri Lee Speece was?
Was he the roofers son?
Have we seen a picture of this boy to see if he actually looked like our boy?

Not sure whether the father was the roofer

http://americasunknownchild.net/Archives3Text.html

ETA ~ ^ Yes ^

From David Prouts book

"The dead boy's face was that of Terry Lee Speece, son of an itinerant roofer and laborer, Charles Speece."

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Can someone remind me who Terri Lee Speece was?
Was he the roofers son?
Have we seen a picture of this boy to see if he actually looked like our boy?

Yes he was the roofers son. We never saw a picture of him. I always wanted to see one and still do. I was curious of what his father looked like too. If his father looked like the man with the boy in Camden restaurant to see if the waitress actually saw them. Terry Lee Speece is one's of the first one I dug into to look into. Apparently he died in the middle to late 80's.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Has anyone heard of an update on this little one and what's going on in his case now? This is really beyond very sad.

 

[marie-chantal]

I am just now getting caught up in this thread, so forgive me if these points have already been discussed.

I read in one of the reports on the America's Unknown Child site that the little boy had been circumcised. I have also read that it has been theorized that he could have been an immigrant. I looked up European circumcision rates in the 50s, and unlike in the United States (it was around 80% then), in Europe the rates were dramatically lower. In England, after WWII, the rate dropped steadily and was 19.6% for boys born in the 50s. It was even lower on the continent of Europe during this time, and is now illegal in Sweden except in special circumstances. http://www.malecircumcision.org/media/documents/MC_Global_Trends_Determinants.pdf (see page 12)

To me, this lowers the odds that he was born abroad...UNLESS he born into a Jewish family.

This leads me to my second thought. The haircut to me indicates a violent act designed to affect this boy's identity. In many Orthodox Jewish sects, boys do not get their hair cut for their first three years. After the second birthday, they still leave the hair around the sideburn area, which remains long throughout their life. This long hair is called pe'ot. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3068/jewish/A-Jewish-Boys-First-Haircut.htm

The way in which the body was disposed (the grooming and cleanliness) is also sort of consistent with Jewish burial practices. It could have been the family trying their best to adhere in the tiniest way to their religious requirements. He wasn't buried in a simple white garment, but the cleaning of the body is consistent with Jewish tradition.

I know that Detective Weinstein was Jewish, and I'm sure he would have thought of this, but perhaps even he had a difficult time getting any info or even getting anybody from the Orthodox communities in Philly to talk to him. They are very insular and do not readily open up to outsiders, even Jewish outsiders who aren't Orthodox.

Orthodox families do not practice birth control, and they tend to be quite large. If this boy comes from this community, then it is likely that he had brothers and sisters.

I know that the Amish also have hair rules for men, but the surgical scars lead me to think he wasn't from an Amish community.

Please don't think I'm picking on religious groups. I just know a little bit about Orthodox Judaism, and it was the first thing that came to mind. I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Hasidim or the Amish.

The other thing that I have been thinking about is the phone call mentioned in the Saturday Evening Post article on the America's Unknown Child site (from 1958) where a woman phoned police and said,
The "unbalanced mother" thought flowed directly into another theory that perhaps the boy, too, had been mentally incompetent - was, in fact, a retarded child. Doctor Krogman recalls that after the newspaper disclosed his entry into the case, he got a telephone call from a woman with a calm, almost deliberately ridged voice. "Can you tell whether that boy was weak-minded?" she asked. Doctor Krogman asked her name. "Do you know what it is to take care of an idiot?" she answered, the calmness suddenly gone. "Sometimes you get so sick of their crying you can kill them in a fit of anger." Now her voice was loud and angry. "That," she said, "might be your explanation." Abruptly she hung up. She never called again.



Did they trace this call? Could it have been the mother of the boy? Could he have been disabled and in a fit of rage and frustration, she snapped and killed him?
Link to that article: http://americasunknownchild.net/SatEvePost.html

 

[marie-chantal]

One other thought that I just had was regarding the dye in his eye. I read earlier in this thread that the dye in his eye was the type used for a medical test and wasn't supposed to be long-lasting or permanent. If that's the case, then he must have had a doctor's appointment earlier during the day he was killed or perhaps the day before. I wonder if LE asked doctors in the Philadelphia-area to look at their appointment books/treatment logs for an appointment held by a young white male that involved an eye test? If they did, and if nobody had treated anybody who matched this boy's general description, then it could be evidence that he was not from the area.

 

[Little Jedi]

I am just now getting caught up in this thread, so forgive me if these points have already been discussed.

I read in one of the reports on the America's Unknown Child site that the little boy had been circumcised. I have also read that it has been theorized that he could have been an immigrant.

{ Respectfully snipped }

In England, after WWII.......

To me, this lowers the odds that he was born abroad...UNLESS he born into a Jewish family.

Hi marie-chantal :wave:

I think these are great points !

Considering it really wasn't that long after WWII. Thousands of Jewish families had fled Europe & were no doubt tormented by what they had suffered/seen.

I imagine many were 'illegal immigrants' (at least they thought they were?) & the fear of being sent back would be absolutely terrifying !
You raise a very interesting point.......... Hmmmm :thinking:

Ms Suzanne ~ I'd be interested as to your thoughts on this.



*I must confess my complete ignorance to all things religious but can give a 'European' opinion * :wink:

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Well, I think our boy could have been from any where. There was the Jewish Foster Home of Philadelphia. I couldn't find pictures too good to see if the hair cuts were similar to what he had. But they don't appear to look like the hair cuts he had. I did and am still doing extensive investigation to see if he could have been a legal or illegal immigrant. I feel there is a strong possibility he could have been.The illegal and legal immigrants were really from every where. Here was a family in 1957 from Czechoslovakia. They I believe found them in Topeka Kansas ?later in June? They called them displaced persons. Could this little boy have been from there too?Czechoslovakia

I'm not sure all what happened to these people. Very confusing.I just want to know if there were others with them from there?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=6996,3269347&dq=wilhelm+debnar&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=5036,4370600&dq=willie+debnar&hl=en

http://newspaperarchive.com/us/kansas/salina/salina-journal/1957/06-23/page-13


There were many types of immigrants.I found this little boy that looked a lot like our boy being adopted out of Greek adoptions in 1956. Were there other little boys adopted through them too? I don't know if it was legal or not.

First picture

http://hellenicgenealogygeek.blogspot.com/2012/08/photographs-1956-greek-orphans-brought.html

http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/20562
comment

I was in Patras orphanage

Submitted by Anonymous on Fri, 2009-01-30 18:34.
i would love to talk with other people from the same orphanage, I came over in July of 1956 through AHEPA, I have some good photos of the children when we arrived in New York,


Dr. Krogman estimated that the boy had been in chronic ill health - with accompanying malnutrition - for about a year. He described the boy as having "a long narrow head, a high narrow face, and a high narrow nose." That, to him, was enough to speculate on Northwest European ancestry - Scandinavia, West Germany, or England or Scotland.


I'm wondering what immigrants could have come from where he said? When did they come over?

 

[marie-chantal]

Well, I think our boy could have been from any where. There was the Jewish Foster Home of Philadelphia. I couldn't find pictures too good to see if the hair cuts were similar to what he had. But they don't appear to look like the hair cuts he had. I did and am still doing extensive investigation to see if he could have been a legal or illegal immigrant. I feel there is a strong possibility he could have been.The illegal and legal immigrants were really from every where. Here was a family in 1957 from Czechoslovakia. They I believe found them in Topeka Kansas ?later in June? They called them displaced persons. Could this little boy have been from there too?Czechoslovakia

I'm not sure all what happened to these people. Very confusing.I just want to know if there were others with them from there?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=6996,3269347&dq=wilhelm+debnar&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=5036,4370600&dq=willie+debnar&hl=en

http://newspaperarchive.com/us/kansas/salina/salina-journal/1957/06-23/page-13


There were many types of immigrants.I found this little boy that looked a lot like our boy being adopted out of Greek adoptions in 1956. Were there other little boys adopted through them too? I don't know if it was legal or not.

First picture

http://hellenicgenealogygeek.blogspot.com/2012/08/photographs-1956-greek-orphans-brought.html

http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/20562
comment

I was in Patras orphanage

Submitted by Anonymous on Fri, 2009-01-30 18:34.
i would love to talk with other people from the same orphanage, I came over in July of 1956 through AHEPA, I have some good photos of the children when we arrived in New York,


Dr. Krogman estimated that the boy had been in chronic ill health - with accompanying malnutrition - for about a year. He described the boy as having "a long narrow head, a high narrow face, and a high narrow nose." That, to him, was enough to speculate on Northwest European ancestry - Scandinavia, West Germany, or England or Scotland.


I'm wondering what immigrants could have come from where he said? When did they come over?

Jews lived all over Europe. They weren't in any one particular country. It's possible that he could have been from a Jewish family who lived/were from northwest Europe. The only reason I would exclude him from being an immigrant is the fact that he was circumcised. If he was an immigrant then the odds are hugely strong that he was from a Jewish family. That link that I included stated that circumcision was not readily available unless the family had the means to pay for it. That's the reason why the rates were so low immediately after WWII. So, this little boy was either American, Jewish-American, or a Jewish immigrant. It narrows the possibilities a tiny bit at least.

Thanks for the greeting, Little Jedi!

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I was thinking our boy might be Catholic,German Catholic or Lutheran.The three orphanages I feel he could have come from.

1. St John's Orphanage in Philadelphia. This is the West Philadelphia Orphanage I think the Manayunk Pennsylvania's couple boy was put into. Please help me find out who that boy was.To see if he is the boy in the box.
The hair cut our boy had looks like a institution or orphanage type hair cut. These pictures in St John's Orphanage look like to me the hair cut he had. Well known abuse was in this Orphanage also.

http://stjohnsorphanage.blogspot.com/

2. St Vincent's Tacony It is not far from where our boy was found.

3.Lutheran home for children and aged on German town ave. (This is the only orphanage I could find that took in children and babies)

 

[Oblio]

What happened with his remains? Was he cremated or buried?

 

[Ms Suzanne]

What happened with his remains? Was he cremated or buried?

This was where he was reburied as America's Unknown Child in 1998.

http://americasunknownchild.net/Funeral1998.html

Original burial and grave.

http://americasunknownchild.net/Burial.html

 

[Oblio]

So were any samples taken for DNA testing?

As far as we've come with DNA testing and the like, I would think that they could narrow down the search if they could figure his more precise ethnicity or maybe even find family matches. (Like Ancestery.com does with their tests and stuff.)

 

[Ms Suzanne]

So were any samples taken for DNA testing?

As far as we've come with DNA testing and the like, I would think that they could narrow down the search if they could figure his more precise ethnicity or maybe even find family matches. (Like Ancestery.com does with their tests and stuff.)

I agree.They only have MTdna for him. I don't think it's in CODIS. I'm not sure. I hope and pray they are doing a better sample for him now and isotope testing for him now too.

 

[Roselvr]

Want to add these real quick; have to run out.

Randall Sands FB

Randall Sands shared their photo. August 22 at 3:38am · REPOST...one I did sometime ago from the morbid picture made of him, case is one that is widely known in U.S as the boy in The Box


Randall Sands - BOY IN BOX UPDATE This one is critique one of the original, changes are there but not by much, you have to consider original police report and what has proceeded there after in the Investigation , you turn his head side ways this is what his appearance is going to be facial-frontal, not exact but a near composite,.. a work up of his mother Im doing as well.. it too should be done soon, due to earlier delays in emergency needs this was delayed, Im on mountain time-Tucson Arizona, 1 hour time but no later than 3am, been a long day · Share · December 24, 2013

Randall Sands Based on time he would have been born, the boys available identification the transcending facial values, this is way I think you would have looked, not exact but is enough to illicit a response for identification hope this helps you, I believe he is at peace not from what happen to him but being people cared and loved him enough to lay him to rest December 24, 2013 at 5:28am · Edited

Randall Sands This is the one of the father it represents the time-era he was in for that area, I only looked at autopsy photographs to get comparison to the son, this is what transcends from it, I do not see people who would have done this being in mediate area but near by given vicinity... May God rest the soul of this Child. December 25, 2013 at 12:51am

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Want to add these real quick; have to run out.

Randall Sands FB

Randall Sands shared their photo. August 22 at 3:38am · REPOST...one I did sometime ago from the morbid picture made of him, case is one that is widely known in U.S as the boy in The Box


Randall Sands - BOY IN BOX UPDATE This one is critique one of the original, changes are there but not by much, you have to consider original police report and what has proceeded there after in the Investigation , you turn his head side ways this is what his appearance is going to be facial-frontal, not exact but a near composite,.. a work up of his mother Im doing as well.. it too should be done soon, due to earlier delays in emergency needs this was delayed, Im on mountain time-Tucson Arizona, 1 hour time but no later than 3am, been a long day · Share · December 24, 2013

Randall Sands Based on time he would have been born, the boys available identification the transcending facial values, this is way I think you would have looked, not exact but is enough to illicit a response for identification hope this helps you, I believe he is at peace not from what happen to him but being people cared and loved him enough to lay him to rest December 24, 2013 at 5:28am · Edited

Randall Sands This is the one of the father it represents the time-era he was in for that area, I only looked at autopsy photographs to get comparison to the son, this is what transcends from it, I do not see people who would have done this being in mediate area but near by given vicinity... May God rest the soul of this Child. December 25, 2013 at 12:51am

Yes. I asked him to make these for me to help find out who he is and also to see what his mother would look like. He is awesome. He is verygood.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Want to add these real quick; have to run out.

Randall Sands FB

Randall Sands shared their photo. August 22 at 3:38am · REPOST...one I did sometime ago from the morbid picture made of him, case is one that is widely known in U.S as the boy in The Box


Randall Sands - BOY IN BOX UPDATE This one is critique one of the original, changes are there but not by much, you have to consider original police report and what has proceeded there after in the Investigation , you turn his head side ways this is what his appearance is going to be facial-frontal, not exact but a near composite,.. a work up of his mother Im doing as well.. it too should be done soon, due to earlier delays in emergency needs this was delayed, Im on mountain time-Tucson Arizona, 1 hour time but no later than 3am, been a long day · Share · December 24, 2013

Randall Sands Based on time he would have been born, the boys available identification the transcending facial values, this is way I think you would have looked, not exact but is enough to illicit a response for identification hope this helps you, I believe he is at peace not from what happen to him but being people cared and loved him enough to lay him to rest December 24, 2013 at 5:28am · Edited

Randall Sands This is the one of the father it represents the time-era he was in for that area, I only looked at autopsy photographs to get comparison to the son, this is what transcends from it, I do not see people who would have done this being in mediate area but near by given vicinity... May God rest the soul of this Child. December 25, 2013 at 12:51am

Yes. Thank You. I posted these earlier.I asked him to make these for me to help find out who he is and also to see what his mother would look like. He is awesome. He is very good.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I'm sorry that was double posted. I don't know what happened.I think I tried to correct some things. I don't know how to delete one of them now.

 

[Rainstorm]

That's great! !