Deceased/Not Found MD - Sarah, 3, & Jacob Hoggle, 2, Clarksburg, 9 Sept 2014 *Arrest*

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I just came across this story while searching for information on this one.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...ath-of-Small-Child-in-Cheverly-274254501.html

NOTE: This is NOT the Hoggle case we are following right now, just the same area.

NOTE: This is NOT the Hoggle case we are following in this thread, just the same area.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...935951.html?_osource=outbrain_recirc=obinsite

This is just an UPDATE on this other case also happening, in the same area.
 
The jails and prisons are full of mentally ill people. Nope, they don't normally take them to the hospital. Some jails have a nurse on staff.
 
Can someone with experience tell me if it is common to take a mentally ill person to the county jail, instead of what I think makes more sense to take her to a mental hospital where they can medicate and hopefully stabilize her so in a matter of days she may be able to answer questions. I have experience with Schizophrenia my BIL has it and when he is unmedicated he won't answer questions and doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the most part, but when we can get him medicated in a matter of days he becomes more clear.

I work in a psych hospital as a nurse and have seen it go both ways. Psych eval scan be done in jail and people who have committed crimes with mental illness go to psych hospitals. MOO but I think that yes she has been off of her meds but they take her to the jail so she can be interrogated, if she doesn't give an answer, be detained, question again a few hrs later. They would never be able to put that pressure on her grilling with questions in the CRC (that is the Crisis Response Center. That is where you go in psych hospital for intake, before the admission onto a unit of a psych hospital).

I would be willing to bet (moo again) she is so disorganized in thoughts, delusional that she prob can't answer where her kids are right now. After she had a few doses of antipsychotics in her system she should be able to have more lucid thoughts and be able to answer the questions.
 
NOTE: This is NOT the Hoggle case we are following in this thread, just the same area.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...935951.html?_osource=outbrain_recirc=obinsite

This is just an UPDATE on this other case also happening, in the same area.


Tarabull-----yeppers, this sounds almost like a copy-cat crime to me. Maybe C. Hoggle somehow connected and sympathized with this other woman that recently suffocated her kids. They are both living in the same state of Maryland, both have mental disorders, both have small children, and chances are very high that C. Hoggle had read about the case and followed it.

Now for the unpleasant part of this post:

Mom was gone approx. 3 hours when her son disappeared. I'm guessing she was gone at least a couple of hours when her daughter disappeared, possibly more. I'm guessing it wouldn't take more than 2 or 3 minutes to choke the life out of a small child, using whatever method someone chose to use. These children were small, only 2 and 3 years old. Mom had PLENTY of time to interact with both of them for awhile before doing the dirty deed.

Big black trash bags, the kind people use for landscaping and yard work, would easily accommodate a small childs body. If concealed inside one of these big trash bags, a small body would be almost indiscernible to someone casually viewing it. If down inside of dumpster, surrounded by boxes and other bagged trash, most likely no one would take a second look at it.

Most businesses of any size, have large steel dumpsters parked in the rear driveway of the store, many of accessible to the public, many of them hidden from view. Some of these businesses may have surveillance cameras trained on the rear driveways (alley) and the trash can area, but the vast majority of them don't. All you have to do is look for the cameras, they are usually pretty visible.

Local trash pickup for most of these large dumpsters is scheduled on a certain day, once a week. Around here, Monday and Tuesday pickup days are common for the commercial dumpsters.

By now, anybody reading this post knows exactly where this is leading. The city landfill.

Mom stated that the kids were safe. Safe from what....the world, the elements, predators, the weather, their Dad , her parents ??
By walking around undetected the majority of the week, Hoggle bought herself enough time to see if someone would discover the bodies.
No one did. By now, she would realize that she actually got away with it. The cops yesterday would have told her as much.

My guess would be that she had actually discarded the kids right there in the area where she was found. Quite possibly, she walked around in the dark of night and checked the dumpsters to see if they had been emptied or not. Only she would know where they were actually hidden. Once the dumpsters were picked up and emptied, her secret was safe, and she could make herself visible now without worrying too much about the consequences. She chose to stay right there in the same tight radius where she initially disappeared. Why ? I personally think it was because she was still close to the kids location , and able to check on them, still playing the part of caring mother.

The other Mother in that area (the one in the article up there) suffocated her kids and was discovered with them right there in her home. C. Hoggle went the extra distance to insure that her kids wouldn't be found so easily. Copy-cat crime ? You betcha'.

Sadly, with the high volume of trash generated in that area, due to the condensed population, these poor kids may never be found if the scenario above is accurate. Never being found and exposed to strangers, means "safe" to dear old deranged Mom.
 
I work in a psych hospital as a nurse and have seen it go both ways. Psych eval scan be done in jail and people who have committed crimes with mental illness go to psych hospitals. MOO but I think that yes she has been off of her meds but they take her to the jail so she can be interrogated, if she doesn't give an answer, be detained, question again a few hrs later. They would never be able to put that pressure on her grilling with questions in the CRC (that is the Crisis Response Center. That is where you go in psych hospital for intake, before the admission onto a unit of a psych hospital).

Zann999.....Can they FORCE her to take medications ? Can they trick her into it by spiking the food and drinks she is provided ? I have no idea what the law would be in regards to something like that. It seems as if they almost certainly have to get her stabilized again through her medications, but can they do it legally ?? Can they get a court order which allows them to strap her down and forcibly inject her with the needed meds ??

I sort of figured one of the first things they would do after capturing her is to get her back on the treatments and get her mind functioning better. After reading the news reports, apparently they didn't do that. Why not ??
 
Zann999.....Can they FORCE her to take medications ? Can they trick her into it by spiking the food and drinks she is provided ? I have no idea what the law would be in regards to something like that. It seems as if they almost certainly have to get her stabilized again through her medications, but can they do it legally ?? Can they get a court order which allows them to strap her down and forcibly inject her with the needed meds ??

I sort of figured one of the first things they would do after capturing her is to get her back on the treatments and get her mind functioning better. After reading the news reports, apparently they didn't do that. Why not ??

The answer to your question is yes it could be, but not exactly like you said. If a person is 302 they are involuntarily committed. Many times, more often than not they come in so grandiose, psychotic and delusional and refuse to take meds in the form of pills. Doctors will consult with another doctor if a person keeps refusing. This has to be monitored and assessed. So they could initIally go a couple or few days and not take meds before something else is done. There is usually PRN meds (as needed) if someone is extremely agitated. We can never ever hide meds in food or drinks. Everything is case by case. There isn't a cookie cutter answer if that makes sense.

we don't tie people down but rather go with a couple other staff members to make sure the patient doesn't try to hurt us or themselves. We want to be as therapeutic with the person as possible and with the least restricting measure. At the end of the day, people come to is bc they are mentally not well. In order to be beneficial and positive we don't want to scare or traumatized anybody worse than they are. Things have changed so much in the way of psych hospitals. It is huge in talk therapy, counseling, groups vs. Secluding people, res training etc.

If a person is a 201 (voluntary commitment) you cannot force somebody to take medication. We can encourage and guide but not force.
 
Tarabull-----yeppers, this sounds almost like a copy-cat crime to me. Maybe C. Hoggle somehow connected and sympathized with this other woman that recently suffocated her kids. They are both living in the same state of Maryland, both have mental disorders, both have small children, and chances are very high that C. Hoggle had read about the case and followed it.

Now for the unpleasant part of this post:

Mom was gone approx. 3 hours when her son disappeared. I'm guessing she was gone at least a couple of hours when her daughter disappeared, possibly more. I'm guessing it wouldn't take more than 2 or 3 minutes to choke the life out of a small child, using whatever method someone chose to use. These children were small, only 2 and 3 years old. Mom had PLENTY of time to interact with both of them for awhile before doing the dirty deed.

Big black trash bags, the kind people use for landscaping and yard work, would easily accommodate a small childs body. If concealed inside one of these big trash bags, a small body would be almost indiscernible to someone casually viewing it. If down inside of dumpster, surrounded by boxes and other bagged trash, most likely no one would take a second look at it.

Most businesses of any size, have large steel dumpsters parked in the rear driveway of the store, many of accessible to the public, many of them hidden from view. Some of these businesses may have surveillance cameras trained on the rear driveways (alley) and the trash can area, but the vast majority of them don't. All you have to do is look for the cameras, they are usually pretty visible.

Local trash pickup for most of these large dumpsters is scheduled on a certain day, once a week. Around here, Monday and Tuesday pickup days are common for the commercial dumpsters.

By now, anybody reading this post knows exactly where this is leading. The city landfill.

Mom stated that the kids were safe. Safe from what....the world, the elements, predators, the weather, their Dad , her parents ??
By walking around undetected the majority of the week, Hoggle bought herself enough time to see if someone would discover the bodies.
No one did. By now, she would realize that she actually got away with it. The cops yesterday would have told her as much.

My guess would be that she had actually discarded the kids right there in the area where she was found. Quite possibly, she walked around in the dark of night and checked the dumpsters to see if they had been emptied or not. Only she would know where they were actually hidden. Once the dumpsters were picked up and emptied, her secret was safe, and she could make herself visible now without worrying too much about the consequences. She chose to stay right there in the same tight radius where she initially disappeared. Why ? I personally think it was because she was still close to the kids location , and able to check on them, still playing the part of caring mother.

The other Mother in that area (the one in the article up there) suffocated her kids and was discovered with them right there in her home. C. Hoggle went the extra distance to insure that her kids wouldn't be found so easily. Copy-cat crime ? You betcha'.

Sadly, with the high volume of trash generated in that area, due to the condensed population, these poor kids may never be found if the scenario above is accurate. Never being found and exposed to strangers, means "safe" to dear old deranged Mom.

I think you are crediting the mother with too much rational thinking. She's a schizophrenic off her meds. The ability to plan out and carry out the "hide until the trash is collected" would be too complicated for someone who is having a psychotic episode.

As someone who has experience of psychosis I know that lucid throught during a psychotic episode is just not possible. If she is still unmedicated she probably has no idea what is real and what isn't at this time, and is probably scared and confused by the questioning. I'm not making excuses for her, but mental illness is complex and debilitating at times.
 
I think you are crediting the mother with too much rational thinking. She's a schizophrenic off her meds. The ability to plan out and carry out the "hide until the trash is collected" would be too complicated for someone who is having a psychotic episode.

As someone who has experience of psychosis I know that lucid throught during a psychotic episode is just not possible. If she is still unmedicated she probably has no idea what is real and what isn't at this time, and is probably scared and confused by the questioning. I'm not making excuses for her, but mental illness is complex and debilitating at times.

Well She knew enough to cut her hair and had the missing poster of her and her children on her.
She was avoiding being captured so IMO she knew Enuff....was aware... as to that video I think she was trying to be quiet possibly cleaning ppl in the offices to me that was the only way for her to get in and then had to leave before she got locked in... Because no one leaves their office unlocked overnight right?
 
Well She knew enough to cut her hair and had the missing poster of her and her children on her.
She was avoiding being captured so IMO she knew Enuff....was aware... as to that video I think she was trying to be quiet possibly cleaning ppl in the offices to me that was the only way for her to get in and then had to leave before she got locked in... Because no one leaves their office unlocked overnight right?

Just because she cut her hair doesn't mean she knows what she is doing. Paranoia can be a huge part of psychosis. She may have thought that she had to disguise herself from a threat she has decided is after her, due to a severe paranoid state. And the "missing poster" on her could justify her paranoia in her mind. She could see that as the authorities being "out to get her".

I'm honestly not defending her actions. I'm just aware of what being out of touch with reality due to psychosis is like. I hope those children are found as soon as possible.
 
After watching the 8 minute video, my heart really breaks for this woman. I am certainly praying that her children are found safe and that she can get the help that she needs.

Does anybody have any idea of what type of building the video was taken at? Seems like an office building, but as somebody else mentioned, why would an office building be open at 4:00 a.m? Does she have some kind of connection to the building? Have they thoroughly searched it for the children?
 
After watching the 8 minute video, my heart really breaks for this woman. I am certainly praying that her children are found safe and that she can get the help that she needs.

Does anybody have any idea of what type of building the video was taken at? Seems like an office building, but as somebody else mentioned, why would an office building be open at 4:00 a.m? Does she have some kind of connection to the building? Have they thoroughly searched it for the children?

It's an office building. It wasn't open, she just just snuck in as someone was leaving.. It is actually a government building. As far as I know she has no connection to it.
 
I have been following this story but haven't posted in this thread.

I have a question about the mom getting medication now that she has been found. If she was in a state of psychosis and did something to the children....would she be able to remember that when she did receive medication? Or, would she not be able to remember what happened even then?

I'm really worried about this. I just watched the video of Catherine in the office building and I got goosebumps. I'm scared for those babies. :(
 
I'm hoping this doesn't come off as offensive. It's truly an honest question from someone with little knowledge of those suffering from paranoid schizophrenia but WHY was she in charge of her children? Even the most mentally sound mother has moments of intense frustration when it comes to caring to toddlers, wouldn't it been too much or unsafe for a diagnosed woman off her medication?

Again, not placing any blame on the family or husband as I know it must be a difficult situation. I'm just curious.
 
It's an office building. It wasn't open, she just just snuck in as someone was leaving.. It is actually a government building. As far as I know she has no connection to it.

Thanks, Bearkoda! Wasn't there a security officer on site? She wandered in and out for 8 minutes and no security guard approached her?
 
I'm hoping this doesn't come off as offensive. It's truly an honest question from someone with little knowledge of those suffering from paranoid schizophrenia but WHY was she in charge of her children? Even the most mentally sound mother has moments of intense frustration when it comes to caring to toddlers, wouldn't it been too much or unsafe for a diagnosed woman off her medication?

Again, not blacking any blame on the family or husband as I know it must be a difficult situation. I'm just curious.

One of the biggest problems with Schizophrenia is how well people are when medicated vs. unmedicated. Her husband may have thought she was doing well and on her meds until that last day or so. And if she had never shown any indication of harming the children then its not so hard to understand she was with them. Dad seems to have done what he should by gently talking to her to try and get answers then getting her agreement to go to the police to find them since she "couldn't" remember where the day care was. The last thing you want to do is confront someone who is schizophrenic in a harsh way..it just reinforces their paranoia etc. In this case she was able to skip out but whatever happened to the children it was obviously too late.

Even off meds people can seem ok until in the midst of a psychotic episode. They aren't necessarily all the time, some are episodic and dad may not have realized one was coming up or she was off the med. Psychosis is weird especially for paranoids because they still can have logical thinking in the sense they will take steps to avoid their enemies, (which we would all do if we had a stalker, or the government coming after us, or the devil etc) they can plan for the same reasons and make decisions that look like they are together and rational qwhereas the reality is they have no sense of reality. It is one reason I despise the "they know if its right or wrong" law. Insanity can take over and make someone do something they know is wrong to society but in their disordered thinking is "right" to do. Including killing your children. Andrea Yates was a perfect example of an insane woman. She knew it was wrong thats why she called and told people about it. Some will call police. Yet they thought they were saving their children by killing them. And anyone with a child knows you would give your life to save them....so the thinking is tragic but understandable.

Some psychotic people are blithering insane and act it. Others because of the type of hallucinations they have may not show it outwardly all the time or unless you ask them a direct question.

imp
 
[h=1]Update: Catherine Hoggle Transported to Central Processing Unit – Children Still Missing[/h]September 13 2014

The Montgomery County Police Department continues to search for and seek information regarding the whereabouts of Jacob and Sarah Hoggle. Catherine Hoggle, their mother, has been transported to the Montgomery County Central Processing Unit and has been charged criminally with two counts of child neglect and obstruction and hindering. The following additional information is being released at this time. For ease of reading, these additional points will be listed:
Investigation:

  • When officers located Catherine Hoggle, she attempted to flee.

  • When Catherine Hoggle was taken into custody by officers, she was wearing the same clothing that she had been wearing when she went missing on September 8. Her hair had been cut.

  • When Catherine Hoggle was apprehended by officers, a “Missing Persons” flyer with her photograph and photographs of her children were located on her person.

  • During questioning, Catherine Hoggle told detectives that since the time of her disappearance, she had been resting in the Germantown area.

  • During questioning, Catherine Hoggle would not tell detectives where Jacob and Sarah are located.

  • At approximately 5:00 p.m. tonight, Catherine Hoggle was transported to the Montgomery County Central Processing Unit. She has been charged with two counts of child neglect and obstruction and hindering.
Searches:

  • Areas to be searched have been determined by information gathered during the investigation and are areas that Catherine Hoggle may have visited recently. The search process is highly organized and systematic, conducted by police officers, and is at the direction of Montgomery County Police Department Search Managers.

  • The areas searched today were determined prior to Catherine Hoggle’s apprehension last night.

  • Today, Montgomery County Police search teams searched more than 16 areas in the Clarksburg area. No evidence was recovered.

  • Police K-9s, to include cadaver K9s, assisted with these searches today and will continue with searches if/when needed.

  • Tomorrow, (Sunday, September 14), police teams plan on searching eight areas in the Darnestown area. Again, Catherine Hoggle has not provided detectives with any information as to the whereabouts of the children.

CatherineHoggleCustody.jpg

http://www.mymcpnews.com/2014/09/13...ntral-processing-unit-children-still-missing/
 
One of the biggest problems with Schizophrenia is how well people are when medicated vs. unmedicated. Her husband may have thought she was doing well and on her meds until that last day or so. And if she had never shown any indication of harming the children then its not so hard to understand she was with them. Dad seems to have done what he should by gently talking to her to try and get answers then getting her agreement to go to the police to find them since she "couldn't" remember where the day care was. The last thing you want to do is confront someone who is schizophrenic in a harsh way..it just reinforces their paranoia etc. In this case she was able to skip out but whatever happened to the children it was obviously too late.

Even off meds people can seem ok until in the midst of a psychotic episode. They aren't necessarily all the time, some are episodic and dad may not have realized one was coming up or she was off the med. Psychosis is weird especially for paranoids because they still can have logical thinking in the sense they will take steps to avoid their enemies, (which we would all do if we had a stalker, or the government coming after us, or the devil etc) they can plan for the same reasons and make decisions that look like they are together and rational qwhereas the reality is they have no sense of reality. It is one reason I despise the "they know if its right or wrong" law. Insanity can take over and make someone do something they know is wrong to society but in their disordered thinking is "right" to do. Including killing your children. Andrea Yates was a perfect example of an insane woman. She knew it was wrong thats why she called and told people about it. Some will call police. Yet they thought they were saving their children by killing them. And anyone with a child knows you would give your life to save them....so the thinking is tragic but understandable.

Some psychotic people are blithering insane and act it. Others because of the type of hallucinations they have may not show it outwardly all the time or unless you ask them a direct question.

imp

Thank you so much for that answer. It really helps me wrap my mind around the difficulties the family and LE are facing in this case.
 
Thank you so much for that answer. It really helps me wrap my mind around the difficulties the family and LE are facing in this case.

It all makes a strange kind of sense imo. For example its typical that schizophrenics go off their meds when unmonitored. Some think its because they don't care or choose to be ill but in reality if you thought a medicine was poison or given to you to poison you or make you amenable for government experiments you wouldn't take it either. Unfortunately they also make someone feel rotten too. So you don't take it on time or think you will be fine til morning and kapow. You then won't take it because it would be insane to take it.Given your disordered thinking. If that makes any sense...its hard to describe, i just try to imagine what would be my reaction if i believed what they did.
 
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