Evidence revealed during the course of the Wrongful Death action

[Ausgirl]

I'd like to see the "investigative file" which contains the inarguable proof that Adam Shacknai took an ambien.

I'd also like to see a unicorn.

These two wishes share a common impediment to fulfilment.

 

[screecher]

^ the 'investigative file' must be pretty thin. IMO, there wasn't much of an investigation.

 

[EVLizzel]

I can't pretend to know what happened to MS or RZ, and do feel that both deaths are now stained with suspicion, but that part of Ann Rule's writing left me with a bad taste because of how biased it seemed.

I also wanted to say that I don't think MS's family has to necessarily think that RZ actively hurt MS in order to responsible for his death. They could easily blame for by just believing her to be negligent in his care. How many times do you read articles of children dying in accidents and commenters immediately
crying 'Where were the parents? The babysitter? The teacher?' and sometimes they have a good point, but also sometimes bad things just happen.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

I'd like to see the "investigative file" which contains the inarguable proof that Adam Shacknai took an ambien.

I'd also like to see a unicorn.

These two wishes share a common impediment to fulfilment.

And I'd like to see any evidence at all that Adam was anywhere other that the guesthouse that night - Ambian taking or not. But I am more likely to see a unicorn…a rainbow colored one.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

^ the 'investigative file' must be pretty thin. IMO, there wasn't much of an investigation.

The Zahaus have it. Why did they never release the information to their followers? IMO, because too much evidence existed that disproves their civil case and IMO, there is information about RZ that they do not want anyone to know.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

I can't pretend to know what happened to MS or RZ, and do feel that both deaths are now stained with suspicion, but that part of Ann Rule's writing left me with a bad taste because of how biased it seemed.

I also wanted to say that I don't think MS's family has to necessarily think that RZ actively hurt MS in order to responsible for his death. They could easily blame for by just believing her to be negligent in his care. How many times do you read articles of children dying in accidents and commenters immediately
crying 'Where were the parents? The babysitter? The teacher?' and sometimes they have a good point, but also sometimes bad things just happen.

And sometimes bad things just happen…like people taking their own life with no warning to family members. Happens all the time.

 

[Ausgirl]

And I'd like to see any evidence at all that Adam was anywhere other that the guesthouse that night - Ambian taking or not. But I am more likely to see a unicorn…a rainbow colored one.

What has this got to do with the point I was making, re Ann Rule's veracity? Sorry if I've somehow missed it.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

I'd like to see the "investigative file" which contains the inarguable proof that Adam Shacknai took an ambien.

I'd also like to see a unicorn.

These two wishes share a common impediment to fulfilment.

Your quote was about the investigative files, not Ann Rules book. You want to see inarguable proof that Adam Shacknai took an ambien, and I'm not sure why. Whether he took an ambien or not proves nothing about Rebecca's death. I want to see proof. Physical evidence. And Adam was never there, never went in the main house at all, so they have no evidence to prove he was ever upstairs with Rebecca. None.

 

[Ausgirl]

Your quote was about the investigative files, not Ann Rules book.

.... nope.

 

[inthedark14]

Your quote was about the investigative files, not Ann Rules book. You want to see inarguable proof that Adam Shacknai took an ambien, and I'm not sure why. Whether he took an ambien or not proves nothing about Rebecca's death. I want to see proof. Physical evidence. And Adam was never there, never went in the main house at all, so they have no evidence to prove he was ever upstairs with Rebecca. None.

If AS never went into the main house at all...where did he get the knife he said he used to cut the rope? How did he manage to not leave any DNA on that knife or on the rope, not only where he cut it (he would have been holding it pretty tight one would think to cut it) but also where he said he loosened the bindings on RZ's hands? How did he manage to not leave any DNA on RZ or the bindings tying her body?

ALWAYS MOO

 

[*Lash*]

As well AR wrote the Housemaid video was seized from the mansion, yet the search warrant listing the items seized from the mansion DOES NOT include this video. Fact or fiction? Imo, you can't cherry pick. I personally choose not to use the material in the book as fact. Even if any of the material supports my personal opinion Rebecca was murdered.

“Among the items seized on the Shacknai estate was a Japanese video titled The Housemaid.”

Excerpt From: “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

Search warrant 41227 - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

 

[EVLizzel]

A thought that occurs to me is that IF someone did murder RZ, stage her murder as a suicide, that all the japanese video/bondage stuff might point to a person that boxed all asian people as one, someone who didn't realize or care what her ethnicity really was.

Was there any evidence of googling japanese bondage/*advertiser censored* prior to around the time of her death?

Was it ever determined what kind of *advertiser censored* AS watched that morning/was into? How about JS?

It just makes me think of how fetishized Asian women often are by white men.

 

[Zinn]

A thought that occurs to me is that IF someone did murder RZ, stage her murder as a suicide, that all the japanese video/bondage stuff might point to a person that boxed all asian people as one, someone who didn't realize or care what her ethnicity really was.

Was there any evidence of googling japanese bondage/*advertiser censored* prior to around the time of her death?

Was it ever determined what kind of *advertiser censored* AS watched that morning/was into? How about JS?

It just makes me think of how fetishized Asian women often are by white men.

In my opinion, it was not staged as a suicide. Nothing about the scene says suicide to me. The fact that AS interpreted it as such (or claimed to) seems suspicious to me. I might be willing to believe that perhaps from afar he believed that was the case, but it's very hard for me to believe he would not think otherwise once he got close enough to see the bindings, gag and condition of Rebecca's body. It's hard for me to imagine any adult encountering a victim in such condition and interpreting the likely cause as suicide, unless perhaps they are in extreme shock.

IIRC, NR stated in her interview that she was skeptical of the cause of Max's death and wondered if 911 was intentionally misled. That seems like an interesting coincidence to me. Regardless, I just can't imagine seeing a victim in that condition and concluding they had committed suicide. I will admit I've never been in such a position myself, so I feel I should leave room for the possibility of shock playing a role, but that would not reasonably extend to the scene being described as staged to depict a suicide.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

I think most people would think suicide before murder when seeing a person hanging. It is one of the top ways to commit suicide, not murder. And it turned out that Adam was correct.

 

[Salem]

This thread is to discuss the evidence ONLY. It is NOT a general discussion thread. Please stay on topic here.

I've moved a few posts to the other thread.

Salem

 

[Ausgirl]

In my opinion, it was not staged as a suicide.

I find it interesting that there are both black rubber -and- black leather gloves present. Black rubber gloves just left lying around. At the scene of a suspicious death... I have wondered whether this was deliberate, and meant to point to a rape/murder. Like the knives. The plastic bag. The gag. The third-person message on the door. All things commonly found at the scene of a violent death.

I have also wondered whether the "suicide" ruling was just like Xmas for whoever did this to Rebecca.

 

[EVLizzel]

I have a question that the writing on the wall brings up.

Is there any evidence to suggest that Jonah was expected to come home at any point that night or extremely early the next morning?

I think I remember reading that she was going to bring him clean clothes the next day, but the writing on the wall, IF she didn't write it herself, makes it seem like he was expected to discover her.

 

[K_Z]

Regarding the definitive source of the information that Adam Shacknai took Ambien the evening of June 12, 2011 we have a more recent source (within the last 30 days or so) for this information than Ann Rule's book.

Adam and his attorneys make reference to Adam "likely" taking Ambien, in his response to the Second Amended Complaint:

13. Defendant admits that Maxfield Shacknai died, apparently as a result of an accident at Jonah Shacknai’s residence on Ocean Boulevard. Defendant lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the remaining allegations of Paragraph 13 of the SAC, and on that basis, denies them.

14. Defendant admits that on the night of July 12, 2011, he was asleep in the guest house at Jonah Shacknai’s residence on Ocean Boulevard, likely after taking Ambien. Defendant denies the allegation that during the night he awoke and went to the residence. Defendant lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the remaining allegations of Paragraph 14 of the SAC, and on that basis, denies them.

(BBM)

https://www.pacer.gov/ , Case # 3:13-cv-01624-w-nls; Document 47, filed 10/ 29/ 14; page 3 of 9

I'm not sure why the term "likely" was inserted, unless that's just lawyer speak. Adam would definitely know if he took one or not.

And regarding item 13 above, Adam is the only one of the three defendants that specifically refers to Max's death as an accident. May be significant, may not, FWIW.

 

[K_Z]

Nina has some interesting comments in her response to the Second Amended Complaint. Nina indicates that Jonah knew Max was not going to survive on the evening of June 12, 2011, and told this to Rebecca in the "lost" voicemail at 2150 hours. It's unlikely that one parent would be told this grave information, and the other parent not told this. Therefore, I conclude that if Jonah knew Max would not survive, then Dina knew this at the same time. They were co-custodial parents, both involved and present in the area. No reason to believe Jonah was told, but Dina wasn't. (However, Dina has an "out" on her interview comments that she just thought he'd need a tutor and sit out a soccer season-- she may be able to report that she was told Max wouldn't live, but didn't accept it or believe it, due to her grief.) Nina's comments parrot Sheriff Gore's press conference announcing their results.

32. This answering Defendant is informed and believes and thereon alleges
that at some point after approximately 2150 hours on July 12, 2011, Rebecca Zahau
received a telephone call from Jonah Shacknai informing her that his six year old
son Maxfield, who had suffered life threatening injuries while under Rebecca
Zahau's supervision and care and who was then hospitalized, had taken a turn for the
worse and was not expected to survive.

33. This answering Defendant is informed and believes and thereon alleges
that the news that Maxfield was unlikely survive, combined with Rebecca Zahau
feeling extreme guilt at the fact that Maxfield had suffered life threatening injuries
while under Rebecca Zahau's supervision and care, caused Rebecca Zahau to
commit suicide by hanging.

34. This answering Defendant is informed and believes and thereon alleges
that after hearing the news that Jonah Shacknai's son was unlikely survive, Rebecca
Zahau proceeded to find a water sport style rope at the 1043 Ocean Boulevard main
house which she cut into three pieces. She fashioned two of the pieces into ankle
and wrist bindings that were lose and could easily be slipped into. She tied the
other, longer length of rope using a simple slip loop to one of the legs and frame of
the bed in the small bedroom adjacent to the balcony over which she hung herself.

35. This answering Defendant is further informed and believes and thereon
alleges that at some point after hearing the news that Jonah Shacknai's son was
unlikely survive and deciding to take her own life, Rebecca Zahau painted the
message "She Saved Him Can You Save Her" as reflective of her feeling extreme
guilt and remorse over having either caused or otherwise failed to prevent the life
threatening injuries that occurred to Jonah Shacknai's son, Maxfield.According to
the Medical Examiner's report, the message was painted with black paint on the
hallway side of the bedroom door. This answering Defendant is further informed
and believes and thereon alleges that a paintbrush with black paint was found lying
on the floor of the bedroom and that matching paint was found on portions of her
body, all of which was consistent with Rebecca Zahau painting the message of her
own volition.

36. This answering Defendant is further informed and believes and thereon
alleges that in deciding to take her own life and after tying the rope to the bed in the
small bedroom at the main house, Rebecca Zahau walked out onto the balcony of
her own volition, as demonstrated by the fact that the balcony which was found by
investigators to be dirty, solely showed Rebecca Zahau's bare footprints and the
initial responding police officer's matched boot print. In particular, according to the
Medical Examiner's Report, "In other words, only footprints consistent with the
decedent's bound feet were found on the balcony, and there were no other footprints
(other than the officer's) or evidence of a struggle." This answering Defendant is
informed and believes and thereon alleges that Rebecca Zahau thereafter climbed
over the balcony, placed the other slip knot end of the rope tied to the bed over her
head and also tied a light blue or turquoise colored long sleeve t-shirt over the rope
and around her neck, placing a portion of the shirt into her mouth (as indicated by
the Medical Examiner's Office finding dried secretions on the t-shirt) so that no one
would be alerted to her suicide and intervene to stop her self-intended death, and
thereafter slipped her hands into the pre-tied loose wrist binding and allowed herself
to fall off the edge of the balcony, hanging herself.

https://www.pacer.gov/ Case 3:13-cv-01624-w-nls Document 46 Filed 10/29/14 Page 5-6 of 12

 

[K_Z]

So, I thought it might be illuminating to compare what each of the three defendants has to say about Max's death, as pretty much everyone who knows anything about this case believes that Max's death resulted in Rebecca's death.

Nina's comments in her response the the Second Amended Complaint (linked above):

32. This answering Defendant is informed and believes and thereon alleges
that at some point after approximately 2150 hours on July 12, 2011, Rebecca Zahau
received a telephone call from Jonah Shacknai informing her that his six year old
son Maxfield, who had suffered life threatening injuries while under Rebecca
Zahau's supervision and care and who was then hospitalized, had taken a turn for the
worse and was not expected to survive.

Adam's comments in his response to the Second Amended Complaint (linked above):

13. Defendant admits that Maxfield Shacknai died, apparently as a result of an accident at Jonah Shacknai’s residence on Ocean Boulevard. Defendant lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the remaining allegations of Paragraph 13 of the SAC, and on that basis, denies them.

Dina's comments about Max's death in her response to the Second Amended Complaint:

13. Answering paragraph 13 of the Second Amended Complaint, Defendant Dina Shacknai denes each and every allegation in paragraph 13 as they pertain to her, with the exception that she admits that her son Maxfield died on July 16, 2011- three days after the death of Decedent Rebecca Zahau.

https://www.pacer.gov/ Case 3:13-cv-01624-w-nls Document 49 Filed 10/30/14 Page 4 of 12

Interesting that of the 3 defendants, Nina is the one who blames/ accuses Rebecca:

"...who had suffered life threatening injuries while under Rebecca
Zahau's supervision and care and who was then hospitalized, had taken a turn for the
worse and was not expected to survive."