PA - Shane Montgomery, 21, Philadelphia, 27 Nov 2014 #5

[ChuckMaureen]

I believe this could as easily be a case of suicide as it could be an accident.

I believe Shane may have tossed his own keys in to the river as he stood on that wall, contemplating whether or not to take that next step. My reasoning is based on the following:

* Age.
* Condition after five hours of out-and-about bar-hoping ("stumbling" in to the parking lot).
* Separated from and not reunited with members of the original group from 9:00 PM.
* Walked to the parking lot when he did not drive that evening and no evidence indicating intention of meeting someone.
* Holiday season. This could go either way but given the assumed condition and other criteria I suspect a state of depression.
* Pressures of being a college student.
* Tweets content and lack of content (just as important at that age, I will not elaborate further).

Some elements of the list are assumed-as-fact based on LE comments and MSM reports.
Some elements of the list are extrapolated from a mix of assumed-fact and assumption.

The main element that steers me in this direction is Shane walking in to that parking lot and adding the remaining elements IMO seals the deal.

 

[Jonesy124]

"relative"
noun

• 1.
  a person connected by blood or marriage.
  "much of my time is spent visiting relatives"
  synonyms:
  member of someone's/the family, kinsman, kinswoman;

And I want to say this Kildaire's I will say must have been told by this "deemed relative" how they were related. Kildaire's I will have to say did not make this up, the "deemed relative" gave them this information. Everyone is related in some way or another in this neighborhood lol, my mom was telling me last night we are related to Shane's uncle by marriage. I am like "what"? But in this case I will throw Kildaire's a bone and they were told this but this "deemed relative".

 

[Jonesy124]

I believe this could as easily be a case of suicide as it could be an accident.

I believe Shane may have tossed his own keys in to the river as he stood on that wall, contemplating whether or not to take that next step. My reasoning is based on the following:

* Age.
* Condition after five hours of out-and-about bar-hoping ("stumbling" in to the parking lot).
* Separated from and not reunited with members of the original group from 9:00 PM.
* Walked to the parking lot when he did not drive that evening and no evidence indicating intention of meeting someone.
* Holiday season. This could go either way but given the assumed condition and other criteria I suspect a state of depression.
* Pressures of being a college student.
* Tweets content and lack of content (just as important at that age, I will not elaborate further).

Some elements of the list are assumed-as-fact based on LE comments and MSM reports.
Some elements of the list are extrapolated from a mix of assumed-fact and assumption.

The main element that steers me in this direction is Shane walking in to that parking lot and adding the remaining elements IMO seals the deal.

I think this is all very well thought out. I have leaned toward it myself over the last couple of weeks but I also want to tread lightly out of respect for the family as this is so painful. The only thing that puzzles me is would have the phone fell out if he jumped in the water? Maybe not. I still can't rule out in my mind beyond alcohol was he taking something or given something by Kildaire's staff/patron willingingly or roofied that may have caused either a command hallucination to hurt himself or to get away from the hallucinations not even knowing he was going in water? I don't know how the tox reports will factor and if they can see what's in his system 5 weeks later. But if it happened to be self-harm I think it was impulsive and he didn't give much thought to it or planned it or it was substance-induced. IMO only. I think others have mentioned but could he have been vomiting and fell in? Or was he trying to walk around that wall/fence and slipped and fell? As Kevin said only Shane knows.Unless LE is missing something and there was foul play. I keep saying to myself "Why did this happen"?

 

[takeittothebank]

The only thing that puzzles me is would have the phone fell out if he jumped in the water?

If it was in his jeans pocket, I think it's very possible the phone would stay in his pocket during a jump/fall into the water.

Jonesy out of curiosity, only if you want to answer,,,, what does your family member that was close to shane think happened? I am curious to know what a friend close to Shane is thinking

 

[Jonesy124]

If it was in his jeans pocket, I think it's very possible the phone would stay in his pocket during a jump/fall into the water.

Jonesy out of curiosity, only if you want to answer,,,, what does your family member that was close to shane think happened? I am curious to know what a friend close to Shane is thinking

My family member(s) are in deep grief right now and to be honest they really don't know either. We have heard several rumors a day just like we have talked about on here and they do not know what to believe. Initially and up until they found him my one family member who is his close friend thought he was kidnapped and out of the area and alive. I think they accept whatever the family is telling them about it being accidental. I haven't talked to any of them in depth about theories as they are very fragile. I think his close friend/my family member was aware of his alcohol/pot use, but my family member's parent was not. I showed her some pictures and social media just to gently break it to her that Shane had a somewhat "other side" as I wanted to do it rather than rumor/MSM. She was aware he had some issues his freshman year of college, but was completely in shock and was very upset and I felt terrible even saying anything. She couldn't not even comprehend it from how she knows and thinks of Shane. However, I told her that doesn't lessen Shane as a human being and many college students go through this phase in life. They are in shock about it all I believe and truly I don't know what they think and have probably many theories like we do.

 

[takeittothebank]

And I want to say this Kildaire's I will say must have been told by this "deemed relative" how they were related. Kildaire's I will have to say did not make this up, the "deemed relative" gave them this information. Everyone is related in some way or another in this neighborhood lol, my mom was telling me last night we are related to Shane's uncle by marriage. I am like "what"? But in this case I will throw Kildaire's a bone and they were told this but this "deemed relative".

I think it was unnecessary for Kildares to keep emphasizing the relative thing though. It seemed like they were just doing it to make themselves look innocent, like our staff would never do this to a relative, or to even take the focus off the bar and more onto it being a 'family issue' of a relative throwing out another relative. Honestly i have sometimes wondered if it even was the relative who kicked out shane, i sometimes felt like Kildares could have made that up to look better. Everything that happened that night is still a mystery

 

[Jonesy124]

I think it was unnecessary for Kildares to keep emphasizing the relative thing though. It seemed like they were just doing it to make themselves look innocent, like our staff would never do this to a relative, or to even take the focus off the bar and more onto it being a 'family issue' of a relative throwing out another relative. Honestly i have sometimes wondered if it even was the relative who kicked out shane, i sometimes felt like Kildares could have made that up to look better. Everything that happened that night is still a mystery

Me too and I hear what you are saying. I may not be allowed to say this and may be wrong to say this but I don't care for the deemed relative whatsoever. But it's possible they could be covering up since he was a bar back, but he was there and saw him go right on Main Street so he had to have escorted him to the door. Yes it is all mystery. And maybe you are right Kildaire's just trying to look good it's a good point. I never thought of it that way.

 

[Jonesy124]

Back to square one on my theories, my sister just called me and she takes the train from Ivy Ridge train station, a distance from Main Street but along the same way and she fell down the train steps and said to me today was similar to the night Shane went missing I can see easily in the dark how he could have lost his footing and accidentally fell in.

 

[takeittothebank]

Back to square one on my theories, my sister just called me and she takes the train from Ivy Ridge train station, a distance from Main Street but along the same way and she fell down the train steps and said to me today was similar to the night Shane went missing I can see easily in the dark how he could have lost his footing and accidentally fell in.

If he was up on the ledge then maybe. Any other parts of the lot I dont think his whole body would have completely fallen in the water and led to a drowning. And as Im thinking about this, I think again about how the keys were so far away....ugh

So while I think an accident could have happened from the ledge, I also think if he was up on the ledge at night during snow in the first place it may have been suicide

 

[letag519]

Interesting findings from a study "Suicide By Drowning In Ireland". Results showed that between 1970 and 1999 the suicide rate in Ireland rose from 1.8 per 100,000 to 11.7 per 100,000 with drowning the method of death chosen by one-fifth of males and one third of female suicides. In 2004 Irish Water Safety estimated that 40% of drowning entries were accidental, 54% suicidal and 6% undetermined.

Common features of suicidal entries were: from a bridge over a river or canal, between 10.00pm and 2.00am, on week-end or Monday nights, males aged between 15 and 35 years who had been drinking heavily beforehand.

 

[Jonesy124]

The only thing is as I said before, i have many a guy friend climb around fences like that or walls with a fence. If he was attempting to do that to get home to avoid Main Street due to being thrown out or avoid police, could he have fell in and the keys came away from him? We don't know where he went in that's they mystery and unless there were witnesses or a witness as Kevin said only Shane knows. I keep coming back to that too.

 

[Jonesy124]

Interesting findings from a study "Suicide By Drowning In Ireland". Results showed that between 1970 and 1999 the suicide rate in Ireland rose from 1.8 per 100,000 to 11.7 per 100,000 with drowning the method of death chosen by one-fifth of males and one third of female suicides. In 2004 Irish Water Safety estimated that 40% of drowning entries were accidental, 54% suicidal and 6% undetermined.

Common features of suicidal entries were: from a bridge over a river or canal, between 10.00pm and 2.00am, on week-end or Monday nights, males aged between 15 and 35 years who had been drinking heavily beforehand.

I don't doubt it plus when your are that intoxicated you are not thinking clearly. It's an interesting study.

 

[takeittothebank]

The only thing is as I said before, i have many a guy friend climb around fences like that or walls with a fence. If he was attempting to do that to get home to avoid Main Street due to being thrown out or avoid police, could he have fell in and the keys came away from him? We don't know where he went in that's they mystery and unless there were witnesses or a witness as Kevin said only Shane knows. I keep coming back to that too.

Maybe but I still feel like alongside the canal would have been his walking path to avoid Main St but like you said we will never know

Interesting findings from a study "Suicide By Drowning In Ireland". Results showed that between 1970 and 1999 the suicide rate in Ireland rose from 1.8 per 100,000 to 11.7 per 100,000 with drowning the method of death chosen by one-fifth of males and one third of female suicides. In 2004 Irish Water Safety estimated that 40% of drowning entries were accidental, 54% suicidal and 6% undetermined.

Common features of suicidal entries were: from a bridge over a river or canal, between 10.00pm and 2.00am, on week-end or Monday nights, males aged between 15 and 35 years who had been drinking heavily beforehand.

Seems like when it comes to drowning it's difficult to determine between accident, suicide, and foul play. Without witnesses or trauma, foul play would go under the radar when it comes to drowning

 

[Ghostwheel]

Thanks for all of the opinions. I am thinking what law can be established in Shane's name. Shane's Law, if you will.

But as I think of a solution only more problems pop up for what a bar should legally and morally have to do when an intoxicated is asked to leave.
They could call a cab. What if cabs won't take them?
They could have a waiting room, but now you're just putting a bunch of drunk people together. Fuel, meet fire.
The bar cannot let them go look for their friends because they just got kicked out for a reason. Many times fighting.
They can allow them to make a phone call, but who's to say that person comes to get them?
The employees can't babysit them outside.
They can monitor the patrons drinks and actions but who knows what they did before or after they leave? Or how many different bartenders they are served by.
Is the bar to call the police every time they ask someone to leave? What if the police are busy or its a small town with only 2 police on duty?
So who is responsible for people that are asked to leave?

I just can't think of a solution other than shutting down clubs/bars. NO!! I know I have an unpopular opinion but I just don't blame Kildare's and especially when I don't know the whole, true story on their remarks or actions. But I do respect everyone's opinion on this. : )

BBM: IMO, yes. Once they have done so, if the police cannot deal with it, it is on them, not the bar. And if there is a marked upswing in the number of times someone has to call the police that should tell the community something needs to be changed. (i.e more police, more responsibility on the bars/ restaurants to make sure they are not over serving people, etc). As it is, any bar can over serve and just claim that the person wasn't drunk when they left. In crowds like we have seen where the young adults gather, the other people there (especially other drunk people)can't tell if that person that just went out the door was drunk or not, as long as no one caused a scene.

 

[charminglane]

:welcome5::goodpost:

To you letag519!!!

 

[Jonesy124]

Anyone familar with this case? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arvard-student-ruled-accidental-drowning.html

I am wondering where they found this guy's clothes or piece of clothing in or out of the water.

 

[charminglane]

Shane's case will haunt me the rest of my days.
It could have been my brother. Or me.
Unfortunately, life is not like a DVD player. There is no pause or rewind.

 

[letag519]

This may be another reason that Shane was "stumbling" over the bridge:

"In slow hypothermia, by the time body temperature drops to 90°F (32°C) both the central and peripheral nervous systems are impaired, primarily due to decreased blood flow to the brain (6-7% per °C18): People are physically and mentally clumsy, show decreased sensitivity to pain, have slowed reflexes, and may hallucinate. Thus, a medical school mnemonic for hypothermia symptoms: “stumbles, mumbles, fumbles, and grumbles,” which summarizes changes in motor coordination and consciousness.

Sleepiness (“cold narcosis&#8221 occurs at around 86°F (30°C) core temperature. At around 81°F (27°C), people stop responding to verbal commands, and some reflexes (such as the reaction of eye pupils to light) stop working entirely. Knee jerk is the last reflex to go,j19 at 79°F (26°C). The body’s temperature-regulating mechanisms also fail and there is quick cooling until the body reaches ambient temperature. However, there is the usual individual variability, with recorded reflexes as low as 68°F (20°C)"

With his low body fat and minimal protective clothing, he may very well have begun experiencing the effects of hypothermia.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

The only thing is as I said before, i have many a guy friend climb around fences like that or walls with a fence. If he was attempting to do that to get home to avoid Main Street due to being thrown out or avoid police, could he have fell in and the keys came away from him? We don't know where he went in that's they mystery and unless there were witnesses or a witness as Kevin said only Shane knows. I keep coming back to that too.

Think of Shane barely walking a straight line on the 10 foot canal bridge. Swaying & hugging the left side- then swaying over to hug the right side. He couldn't walk straight with 10 feet. The wall ledge is maybe 24 inches. He'd never make it out there. Especially covered with snow & ice. Remember Detpac said, he wouldn't be able to do it drunk. Just a thought.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

http://www.nysaccme.org/library/HDI-world_drowning_congress.pdf

This is interesting.