PA - Shane Montgomery, 21, Philadelphia, 27 Nov 2014 #5

[Kevinc3143]

This may be another reason that Shane was "stumbling" over the bridge:

"In slow hypothermia, by the time body temperature drops to 90°F (32°C) both the central and peripheral nervous systems are impaired, primarily due to decreased blood flow to the brain (6-7% per °C18): People are physically and mentally clumsy, show decreased sensitivity to pain, have slowed reflexes, and may hallucinate. Thus, a medical school mnemonic for hypothermia symptoms: “stumbles, mumbles, fumbles, and grumbles,” which summarizes changes in motor coordination and consciousness.

Sleepiness (“cold narcosis”) occurs at around 86°F (30°C) core temperature. At around 81°F (27°C), people stop responding to verbal commands, and some reflexes (such as the reaction of eye pupils to light) stop working entirely. Knee jerk is the last reflex to go,j19 at 79°F (26°C). The body’s temperature-regulating mechanisms also fail and there is quick cooling until the body reaches ambient temperature. However, there is the usual individual variability, with recorded reflexes as low as 68°F (20°C)"

With his low body fat and minimal protective clothing, he may very well have begun experiencing the effects of hypothermia.

are you saying hypothermia set in before the water right after leaving the bar?

 

[Jonesy124]

So for those of you who are not from the area. He could have walked back the trail to the waters edge to smoke or Pee. That is a steep and sandy area of the waters banks. So with the Snowy and icy conditions and being intoxicated or slightly drunk it is very easy to fall right in. I was with Detpac and he was throwing a rock seeing how deep the water was at times. He slipped on a dry day just doing that. So imagine Shane in his condition and the snow and ice? So please for the love of God Get off the Suicide thing.

Thank you for this point. My sister was at the train station early 6am yesterday and fell down four steps and it was dark out and slippery with slight snow and she had said to me I can see how Shane could have slipped in easily.

 

[Kevinc3143]

Hi, I'm new here, I've been following this case since the very beginning, especially, I guess since I live in Roxborough. Originally I thought maybe he had left, voluntarily because maybe he was depressed couldn't handle the pressures. I thought this I think, one because I was hoping and two because of the immediate and urgent response from his family, plus his drug/alcohol habits. Now that they have indeed found him in the river, I am leaning towards suicide for a few reasons, the immediate urgent response fro his family, the devastation that his parents had upon viewing him cross the bridge toward the parking lot/river, the distance of his keys and the tweet his cousin put up the day they found him, something about not making a permanent decision off of a temporary emotion. Plus while missing, his cousin said something about kicking his *advertiser censored** when shane comes back (hopefully and angry maybe?) and the fact that his cousin also said that his walk home from work will never be the same (seems to KNOW that shane is gone?) just my opinion, but that is how I am leaning.

I think you are reading WAY to much into a grieving cousin. Who Was with him that night and is holding himself responsible. He feels so bad because his cousin, best friend is gone. Not because Shane was suicidal but because he was out with Shane and as with anyone in the situation you will always feel as if you could have done something more.

I felt it many times just knowing that the first spot i went to with his cousin's were that parking lot. I couldn't jump in thew water though!

 

[Kevinc3143]

Normally, I would have to agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe he also tripped & fell, but if you look at this picture below: then I have to believe it's unreasonable-IMO
He'd have to step over the cement blocks or not..loose his footing, tumble or slip
down the embankment - and miraculously miss all the obstacles, trees, branches etc...attempt not to grab onto any of them to stop falling- many fairly sturdy saplings growing there.
The end of the bank is flat - so, gravity would probably stop him at that point...but, tumbled anyway into a half foot of water which was too deep for him to climb out- he continued walking or stumbling into the slanted river bottom into 1 foot, 2 feet, then 3 and so on without the bodies natural reaction of fight or flight coming into play. The cold temperature of the water didn't shock him - he ignored the warning signs because he was too impaired. The frigid temperature of the water had no effect on him- he didn't respond.
Yell or scream for help?... Busiest night of the year- bars were just letting out.
Could it happen? ...Anything is possible. I know that's why they call it accidents- but, the way I view it- that is one, fluke of missteps.
View attachment 66854

No One knows that this area was his point of entry into the water. There's a trail that is farther up and the water meets the trail edge at one point. that is just an area near the keys being found!

 

[Kevinc3143]

No I certainly understand that but I am still not sure if that was his point of entry we dont have that information. We also don't know how busy the parking lot was that night. I have heard from several neigbors down there that night that it was "eerily quiet". And I would say that if it was mostly locals partying that night they would have walked, gotten a cab or gotten dropped off that they weren't using that parking lot. I would say if people were out dining only they would have used it and left earlier than 2:00am. Since we are getting nothing from the police about those cars it's hard to know how many cars left after Shane entered. I am feeling very sad and angry today as I think about those two cops that originally looked into the case allowing the trash pickup lauging with their coffee cups and not paying attention until Shane's family/friends that were cops made it there. And if one staff at Kildaire's would have called a cab and his own "deemed relative" had said wait a minute this guy is a mess let me get help. Not one person did that. And they are still operating with no sanctions. Do those employees still have jobs there? I am just very very angry

Jonesy124 the sad answer to one of your questions is Yes The employees are still working at Kildare's

 

[Jonesy124]

Jonesy124 the sad answer to one of your questions is Yes The employees are still working at Kildare's

It makes me so angry and said I was saying to my dad this morning and he was saying as well "If one person would have thought let me call someone, a cab, help you locate your friends" etc etc. Kevin since you work in the business what do you think about them packing them in over-capacity? Can they be held accountable for that?

 

[Kevinc3143]

It makes me so angry and said I was saying to my dad this morning and he was saying as well "If one person would have thought let me call someone, a cab, help you locate your friends" etc etc. Kevin since you work in the business what do you think about them packing them in over-capacity? Can they be held accountable for that?

Its Tricky. Yes and No. if you have a 300 person occupancy then you may be over crowed for an hour then people move on. we do have Major clubs that have a guy at the door with a clicker counting people. But as soon as a group leaves you usher in the next group.

If you look at it in plain black and White from the Lawful Occupancy codes. ABSOLUTELY YES!

 

[letag519]

Yes, it's quite possible. Alcohol causes body heat to lower much quicker in cold weather. There has been various body weight mentioned ranging from 130-145lbs. Shane was on the lower end of normal body weight for his height and was a runner so he most likely had a very low body fat index. Also cotton clothing is not a good insulation against cold weather. It doesn't take long for mild hypothermia to set in. Initially, the body shivers as a response to extreme cold. After that response, the body's core temp begins to lower. The behaviors associated with mild hypothermia include confusion and stumbling since motor responses are becoming dulled. As hypothermia progresses, hallucinations are common.

 

[Phila]

Jonesy124 the sad answer to one of your questions is Yes The employees are still working at Kildare's

Very sad. Do you think they are keeping them because if they are fired then they are "admitting" that they did something wrong?

Also very sad about Shane's cousin. I hope he finds peace somehow and knows that the events that transpired were out of his control. This will affect him forever and I pray him for him.

 

[takeittothebank]

So please for the love of God Get off the Suicide thing.

We have only mentioned it as a possibility, Just like the other possibilities that could have happened.

 

[letag519]

are you saying hypothermia set in before the water right after leaving the bar?

Alcohol Does Not Help Prevent Hypothermia, It Actually Makes It More Likely
Daven Hickey

Myth: drinking alcohol warms your body and can be used to prevent hypothermia.

In fact, drinking alcohol helps lower the core temperature of your body. This myth likely got its start thanks to the fact that drinking alcoholic beverages will make you feel warmer as your blood/alcohol level rises.

As the Director of Clinical Pharmacology at the University of Iowa, Dr. William Haynes, states, “Consumption of alcohol undoes many of the human body’s healthy reflexes, one of which is keeping the core body temperature warm in cold weather.” It doesn’t even take that much for this effect to kick in. Even just one alcoholic drink will start the process that results in a lowered core body temperature.

So how does it do this and why does drinking alcohol make you feel warmer, even though you actually are getting colder? Alcohol is a vasodilator, meaning that it causes your blood vessels to dilate, particularly the capillaries under the surface of your skin. Thus, the volume of blood brought to the skin’s surface increases, making you feel warm. As Dr. Haynes mentioned, this overrides one of your body’s defenses against cold temperatures, constricting your blood vessels, thereby minimizing blood flow to your skin in order to keep your core body temperature up.



While you may feel warmer from the extra blood warming your skin (where most of your “heat sensors” are located), this blood being brought close to the surface of your skin will be rapidly cool if you are in a cold environment (sometimes exacerbated by sweating as a result of this heat flush). The net effect being a rapid drop in core body temperature, often without you even realizing it as your skin will feel fairly warm, which makes it doubly dangerous to drink alcohol in extremely cold weather.

You can observe this dilation effect when you see people who are slightly or fully intoxicated looking flushed. This effect is more extreme in some people than others. So if you’re one of those people who gets flushed quickly when drinking even small amounts of alcohol, you’ll likely see your core temperature drop even faster than most when drinking in frigid environments.

This isn’t the only bad thing about drinking alcohol when cold. According to a study done by the Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, drinking alcohol in cold weather also reduces the body’s ability and tendency to shiver, taking away yet another method your body uses to help keep warm when it is cold.

So, bottom line, the age old practice of drinking alcoholic beverages to keep the body warm in cold weather is the exact opposite of what you should do.

 

[Jonesy124]

Alcohol Does Not Help Prevent Hypothermia, It Actually Makes It More Likely
Daven Hickey

Myth: drinking alcohol warms your body and can be used to prevent hypothermia.

In fact, drinking alcohol helps lower the core temperature of your body. This myth likely got its start thanks to the fact that drinking alcoholic beverages will make you feel warmer as your blood/alcohol level rises.

As the Director of Clinical Pharmacology at the University of Iowa, Dr. William Haynes, states, “Consumption of alcohol undoes many of the human body’s healthy reflexes, one of which is keeping the core body temperature warm in cold weather.” It doesn’t even take that much for this effect to kick in. Even just one alcoholic drink will start the process that results in a lowered core body temperature.

So how does it do this and why does drinking alcohol make you feel warmer, even though you actually are getting colder? Alcohol is a vasodilator, meaning that it causes your blood vessels to dilate, particularly the capillaries under the surface of your skin. Thus, the volume of blood brought to the skin’s surface increases, making you feel warm. As Dr. Haynes mentioned, this overrides one of your body’s defenses against cold temperatures, constricting your blood vessels, thereby minimizing blood flow to your skin in order to keep your core body temperature up.



While you may feel warmer from the extra blood warming your skin (where most of your “heat sensors” are located), this blood being brought close to the surface of your skin will be rapidly cool if you are in a cold environment (sometimes exacerbated by sweating as a result of this heat flush). The net effect being a rapid drop in core body temperature, often without you even realizing it as your skin will feel fairly warm, which makes it doubly dangerous to drink alcohol in extremely cold weather.

You can observe this dilation effect when you see people who are slightly or fully intoxicated looking flushed. This effect is more extreme in some people than others. So if you’re one of those people who gets flushed quickly when drinking even small amounts of alcohol, you’ll likely see your core temperature drop even faster than most when drinking in frigid environments.

This isn’t the only bad thing about drinking alcohol when cold. According to a study done by the Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, drinking alcohol in cold weather also reduces the body’s ability and tendency to shiver, taking away yet another method your body uses to help keep warm when it is cold.

So, bottom line, the age old practice of drinking alcoholic beverages to keep the body warm in cold weather is the exact opposite of what you should do.

I think what Kevin is asking and can correct me if I am wrong it was about a 30 second walk if that from Kildaire's to the foot canal bridge where he is seen stumbling. Would hypothermia set in that fast?

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

So for those of you who are not from the area. He could have walked back the trail to the waters edge to smoke or Pee. That is a steep and sandy area of the waters banks. So with the Snowy and icy conditions and being intoxicated or slightly drunk it is very easy to fall right in. I was with Detpac and he was throwing a rock seeing how deep the water was at times. He slipped on a dry day just doing that. So imagine Shane in his condition and the snow and ice? So please for the love of God Get off the Suicide thing.

Kevin- I'm saying this to you as others on this thread in the most concerned possible way I know how through typing on a computer screen.
Please do not take any negative tone in my voice and interpret any theory I have and crush it. I encourage you to challenge it, of course. That's why we are here, right?
I want to hear your theories- I want you to tell me you see things another way. But, please don't dismiss it or "ask for the love of God to get off it."

The truth is We just don't know. Foul play -homicidal drownings, is very rare--- it would be very hard to prove or find any physical evidence - unless, someone speaks up or saw something. It can never be ruled out completely. It was top on my list.

I have stated here on this thread many times the river was my back yard. In my 47 years of experience I have never slipped or fell into the river. I'm an avid boater, kayaker, skier- I've been in treacherous extremely dangerous flood waters on numerous occasions saving our belongings. Both in winter & summer months.
That's just me.

I personally, have a very hard time seeing this as "just an accident"... That only my opinion. Others see accident, very easily. But, with that said. I don't know Shane, I don't know was he is capable of. I'm trying to learn here.
People on this forum will believe what they want to, from all the evidence that's been given & evaluated. At this point in time, nothing can be ruled out completely.

Many of us are in the business. I do feel negligence here- again-IMO, maybe I got lucky throughout my life. 25 yrs as a bartender, do I think people left my bar drunk?...of course. Except, No one was injured or died in all those years. Was it just luck, perhaps.
It's a judgement call. It also seems like you are putting most of the blame on Kildares. We hear you. Many of of feel that way too. But, we can't say at this point that this establishment was responsible for this young mans death. If the family chooses to go forward with an investigation-that's their choice.

You claimed you've know this family for most of your life. While grieving, a suicide is hard for you accept. Understandably so. It simply can't be ruled out. If you want to believe, Kildares could have played a role, which lead to an accident- that ultimately resulted in death, that's your choice. No one is telling you here to get off Kildares

 

[letag519]

I think what Kevin is asking and can correct me if I am wrong it was about a 30 second walk if that from Kildaire's to the foot canal bridge where he is seen stumbling. Would hypothermia set in that fast?

As stated in the article above, " It doesn’t even take that much for this effect to kick in. Even just one alcoholic drink will start the process that results in a lowered core body temperature." So if that is true, his body core temp could have been very low before he even entered Kildare.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

I think what Kevin is asking and can correct me if I am wrong it was about a 30 second walk if that from Kildaire's to the foot canal bridge where he is seen stumbling. Would hypothermia set in that fast?

If you believe the witnesses actual time of departure 1:50am. According to the hypothermic chart- it doesn't seem that Shane was exposed to the elements that long to render this as a possibility. IMO

 

[letag519]

Critical Signs of Alcohol Poisoning
◾ Mental confusion, stupor, coma, or person cannot be roused.
◾ No response when pinching the skin.
◾ Vomiting while sleeping.
◾ Seizures.
◾ Slow breathing (less than eight per minute).
◾ Irregular breathing (10 seconds of more between breaths).
◾ Hypothermia (low body temperature), bluish skin color, paleness.

So as you can see from the list of symptoms above, hypothermia can occur as a result of alcohol poisoning. You do not necessarily have to be outside in cold weather while drinking excessively.
According to previous reports, Shane had experienced alcohol poisoning while he was a freshman at WCU. Binge drinking for males is described as 5 of more drinks at one time. It seems quite obvious that someone with Shane's pattern of behavior around alcohol had consumed a significant amount by the time between 10:00PM-2:00 PM before he was kicked of lf Kildares.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

So for those of you who are not from the area. He could have walked back the trail to the waters edge to smoke or Pee. That is a steep and sandy area of the waters banks. So with the Snowy and icy conditions and being intoxicated or slightly drunk it is very easy to fall right in. I was with Detpac and he was throwing a rock seeing how deep the water was at times. He slipped on a dry day just doing that. So imagine Shane in his condition and the snow and ice? So please for the love of God Get off the Suicide thing.

According to your post- you tend to believe that Shane was drunk - (like most of us.)
Despite the fact, his friends, his mother & the bar stated he was not drunk.

 

[Jonesy124]

Critical Signs of Alcohol Poisoning
◾ Mental confusion, stupor, coma, or person cannot be roused.
◾ No response when pinching the skin.
◾ Vomiting while sleeping.
◾ Seizures.
◾ Slow breathing (less than eight per minute).
◾ Irregular breathing (10 seconds of more between breaths).
◾ Hypothermia (low body temperature), bluish skin color, paleness.

So as you can see from the list of symptoms above, hypothermia can occur as a result of alcohol poisoning. You do not necessarily have to be outside in cold weather while drinking excessively.
According to previous reports, Shane had experienced alcohol poisoning while he was a freshman at WCU. Binge drinking for males is described as 5 of more drinks at one time. It seems quite obvious that someone with Shane's pattern of behavior around alcohol had consumed a significant amount by the time between 10:00PM-2:00 PM before he was kicked of lf Kildares.

Thank you for the information I appreciate it about alcohol poisoning/hypothermia. It's very informative. Yes what happened freshman year is factual I can confirm that. And I was not thinking about him being exposed to the elements from the bar hopping and how that affects body temperature and it's still uncertain how long they were in Kiildaire's and if he was in and out smoking since they don't allow smoking they have to go outside to do that.

 

[Jmoose]

According to your post- you tend to believe that Shane was drunk - (like most of us.)
Despite the fact, his friends, his mother & the bar stated he was not drunk.

The bar has an obvious reason to say he wasn't drunk (as you know, that's code for "we didn't over-serve him"). Family and friends would say it, but would really mean "he was social drinking, but don't hold it against him, or dismiss him as not worthy of the concern we all have for him". I think there were some here early on who moved on when it became obvious that Shane liked to drink and smoke pot, but those of us still here did not have that problem-we know he was a young man with a lot to learn about those things, and that he was, indeed, worthy of the concern that we all had. I can see why his family and friends would say he wasn't drunk...even if it wasn't true.

 

[Jonesy124]

If you believe the witnesses actual time of departure 1:50am. According to the hypothermic chart- it doesn't seem that Shane was exposed to the elements that long to render this as a possibility. IMO

The time of things still puzzles me. The 1:50am to 2:09 am, if that's true timing or was he still in there after 2:00am. Did it take them a long time to walk through the crowd, did they go an alternate route out? Or was he waiting outside a few minutes to catch up with friends? All a mystery.