Was BR involved? #2

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I agree that the R's would not put themselves in jeopardy of prison if they had nothing to do with JB'S death and had discovered BR (and/or another youth such as DS) had killed her. Both of the Rs were savvy enough to know to call their atty ASAP if they had known it was not either of them and there had been no intruder. The lawyer would have had every avenue he needed to insure JB'S "tragic accident" was properly disguised and diminished from the limelight, especially with JR being in the middle of the big deal with Lockheed.

Imagine how different this whole thing might have played out if it WAS BR and the Rs DID make those wee hour phone calls and then simply went to work according to their attys advice. After some weeks of minimal managed media attention, they could have faded back into a high society lifestyle as they grieved the loss of JB and worked on helping their son towards a heathy, and repentive adult life.
MHO,only.

midwest mama,
Imagine how different this whole thing might have played out if it WAS BR and the Rs DID make those wee hour phone calls and then simply went to work according to their attys advice. After some weeks of minimal managed media attention, they could have faded back into a high society lifestyle as they grieved the loss of JB and worked on helping their son towards a heathy, and repentive adult life.
MHO,only.
Maybe they did, and followed sage advice, only to be blindsided by the media. They patently never thought the case would become fixated on the pageant aspect with JonBenet's twirls and winks to the camera replayed for ever over the Christmas period. IMO, thats what made the case, the R's despite all their legal planning never saw this coming, they thought they could decline all interviews and as per their PR advice the case would fall into obscurity once the 24 hour news cycle had evolved.

Wrong, and FW reminded them about this, only to be castigated for it.

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DeeDee249...Can you help with medical info regarding JB'S wrists being in the binding? You commented before that since her arms were in rigor up over her head and the wrists weren't close together we can assume her hands weren't "tied together". Could we think, then, that her hands might have been bound, but with something between them as rigor mortis set in. Such as, if she were killed, then temporarily suspended from something like those round duct pipes on the basement ceiling, then the slip knot on one side of the wrist binding loosened to allow her to be taken down and wrapped into the blanket, etc.. Would there have been swelling after death? If the wrist binding was put on after death and she was suspended, would there be blanch marks? I tend to wonder if the wrist ligature was already freed from her one wrist when JR "found" her in the WC.

She couldn't have been suspended from anything. If she had been, LIVOR mortis would reflect a pattern showing blood pooling only in the extremities, and this pattern would have remained even if she was taken down and placed on her back. In addition, if she had been there long enough, RIGOR mortis would have begun to fix her joints and that would be apparent too. The autopsy photos of her hands are available, and they show NO swelling and NO ligature marks. Had she been suspended while alive with her hands bound the way JR claims, there would be red ligature furrows on her wrists just like the ones on her throat. In addition, the coroner did not note any swelling of her hands (or throat for that matter) and what has been MIS=perceived as swelling on her neck is nothing more than the skin of the throat folding over the neck cord, which was pulled tight enough to dig into the flesh. If you have ever seen a body (or photo of one) that had been strangled by hanging or violently strangled in any position, the swelling above the neck is very obvious and very grotesque. JB's face and head, while showing the pallor of death in all its horror, did not display the gross swelling of a hanging (or suspended) victim.
There can NEVER be swelling after death. Swelling is a response to pressure and inflammation that occurs only when alive. Do not confuse this with postmortem BLOAT, which is the result of blood and other fluids and gasses building up inside a dead body.
Part of the reason the forensic experts have such a hard time pinning down the time between the head bash and strangulation is the fact that the brain did NOT exhibit more than mild swelling, indicating she did not live too long after that head bash. Swelling in the brain, as in the rest of the body, stops at death, when circulation ceases with the final heartbeat.
If the wrist ligatures were put on after death, there would be very visible white marks. (blanch marks). There is one VERY pale white mark on one wrist, but she had a loosed-fitting bracelet on when she died, which was removed by the coroner. One wrist did have a very loose ligature which was not tied tight and was simply slipped over her wrist by the coroner.
I think there is no other possibility than JR was lying about the wrists being bound. (wasn't the only lie, after all, was it?). His comments were made to give more plausibility to the kidnapping scenario. Fools a lot of people, but can't fool medical science. Regardless of belief or theory, livor and rigor mortis are facts and apply to every corpse. They cannot be made to fit a theory or claim.

Bottom line- she was NOT suspended from anything at all, and her wrists were never tightly bound, before or after death.
 
You may be right, you may be wrong, but in the end I still feel the whole "Burke did it" theory to be implausible. Yes, he may have hit her over the head, but he certainly didn't carry her down to the basement, fashion the garrote, and strangle the life out of her. If he did hit her, a call to 911 might have saved her, but one or both of the parents made the decision to handle it differently.

So whether Burke had a part in it or not, the parents still would be the actual murderers IMO.


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I think BR molested her- this night and previously. He may not have been the only one. I think he bashed her on the head when she screamed. But I agree that his involvement ended there. He played no part in the staging. He did not carry her down the stairs, wipe the blood from her pubic area and thighs, or go looking for the size 12 panty gift set to redress her. Why not call 911? Simple- every forensic expert agreed that a head bash and fracture like that would have been fatal on its own, and she likely lapsed into a coma or shock. This would have slowed her respiration markedly, lowered her body temperature, and may have made her appear dead anyway. There was also a sexual assault, resulting in a visible amount of blood, which might have been detected in a hospital setting. One of the forensic experts claimed that if JB had been brought to a hospital, her father would have been arrested (when the vaginal injuries were discovered). While the parents couldn't have seen the eroded hymen, bruising and blood in her vagina, the bruising on her labia and blood on her pubic area and thighs (even wiped away) would have been enough for them to make the decision to point the blame for what happened to JB away from the family. Keep in mind what the mental and emotional state of the 3 remaining family members in the house must have been that night. You simply can't say what they did was illogical or something that "no parent would have done" because the evidence leads right to the parents and what they DID do.
In a trial, the strangulation would likely have been presented as the event that actually ended her life, as the petechiae and ligature furrow indicate she was alive when strangled. Not just the petechia on her skin, but seen IN her eyes at the autopsy, as well as in the heart and lungs. This wasn't a corpse they staged- she was alive when the coverup began (though mercifully unconscious/comatose).
 
But certainly, if they thought she was dead, they would not have strangled her. They would not have been able at that point to know that the head blow would be fatal, so the act of strangulation rather than calling 911 is an act of murder. If Burke caused the head blow, it is arguable whether or not it would have been fatal or not if she was given immediate treatment. So it is my opinion that it would be very unlikely that anyone could say that Burke was responsible for the murder.


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There is no way I believe that BR did a thing to his sister. I am always so amazed by this thinking. Because of the lack of good outside suspects people turn inside but that does not mean anyone in the house did anything to her. The DNA on her is not from family.

He is not now nor has he ever been a suspect in this case. However there are many many people that were most likely overlooked by the police in the early days.

I hope and pray that someday they find this person. I bet he will be someone who did this again.
 
The gravitational settling of blood (livor mortis) begins after the heart has stopped beating, but it isn’t visible until at least 30 minutes to 2 hours after death. Even when it first becomes visible, it is not fixed (non-blanching) until hours later. So if the body is moved before lividity has become fixed, it will change.


From http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf:

Occasionally, when the ligature is still in position when the body is examined, it may appear to be deeply embedded in the skin, sometimes almost out of sight, and on its removal a deep groove may be seen in the skin. This embedding may be accentuated by edema of the tissues, especially above the ligature. Presumably, some passive transudation of tissue fluid continues even after the circulation has stopped, and as such, edema may continue to develop to some extent even after death, accentuating the depth of the groove.
 
But certainly, if they thought she was dead, they would not have strangled her. They would not have been able at that point to know that the head blow would be fatal, so the act of strangulation rather than calling 911 is an act of murder. If Burke caused the head blow, it is arguable whether or not it would have been fatal or not if she was given immediate treatment. So it is my opinion that it would be very unlikely that anyone could say that Burke was responsible for the murder.


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So the question becomes, which one wanted JBR dead, and why?

If BR hit her in the head he almost certainly applied the garrotte as well, because if he didn't (apply the garrotte) then the likely response of the parent(s) would be to call an ambulance.

Even if it's argued that BR hit her and garrotted her, there is no sensible reason for the adult Rs to concoct a phoney kidnapping scenario when all that does is make it appear that one (or both) killed their daughter and tried to cover it up. Again, they did not run the risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit to "save" a boy who couldn't be prosecuted.
 
There is no way I believe that BR did a thing to his sister. I am always so amazed by this thinking. Because of the lack of good outside suspects people turn inside but that does not mean anyone in the house did anything to her. The DNA on her is not from family.

He is not now nor has he ever been a suspect in this case. However there are many many people that were most likely overlooked by the police in the early days.

I hope and pray that someday they find this person. I bet he will be someone who did this again.

I thought the same way, until I read Kolar's book.

ETA: truly, you must read Kolar's book if you haven't. It's not reasonable to even discuss BDI ideas without having read it.
 
But certainly, if they thought she was dead, they would not have strangled her. They would not have been able at that point to know that the head blow would be fatal, so the act of strangulation rather than calling 911 is an act of murder. If Burke caused the head blow, it is arguable whether or not it would have been fatal or not if she was given immediate treatment. So it is my opinion that it would be very unlikely that anyone could say that Burke was responsible for the murder.


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I think they thought the head blow was already fatal and staged the strangulation, not realizing they were killing her then.
 
Somehow I doubt that. Even an unconscious person is still breathing, and they will make gasping noises as the airway is constricted.


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When was Burke asked if he was awake or asleep during the 911 call? I thought the parents didn't concede he was awake during the call until after further analysis of the 911 call revealed his voice could be heard.

That said, why would he even be asked that question? He may have been asleep and was awakened by Patsy's frantic voice while making the call.

I sure don't follow why his DNA shouldn't be found on the breakfast bar or his sister's nightgown. He lived there and siblings do touch one another and the same bathroom sinks, other surfaces and their clothes often share the same laundry basket.

I've seen no evidence that proves he was awake BEFORE the 911 call was even made.

I agree. Regardless if he was awake or asleep before the call - which obviously matters as being awake would indicate he likely heard, saw, or knows more about what happened than has ever been said - the fact that the PARENTS insisted he was in fact NOT awake when this was later shown to be false is the important part of this for me.
 
Point by point:

How does BR's touch-DNA on the nightgown link him to the wine cellar? Not saying it doesn't, but he lived in the house with JBR, mingled clothes, shared clothes, shared bedding, etc.

BR's fingerprints being all over the breakfast bar - same point as above - in essence, so what? What does that prove?

The R's contradiction of events implicates them, not BR...in my opinion.

I have always believed BR's version of events more than his parents - assuming he is not involved, a 9 year old child would lie about his sister being awake when they got home for what reason...? Assuming he is involved, what kind of cunning, manipulative, future-thinking 9 year old is this?

The pattern of BR's version contradicting his parents, IMO, points to his parents, not himself. I am not saying that he is not involved or doesn't know anything - I think at the very least he knows much more than he has ever said.

On the subject of him helping with the case...IDK. I can see this either way. I see how fishy it looks and seems to not help and offer no assistance for so long. I also see how regardless of what truly happened that night, BR seems to have had some behavioral issues before that, and certainly had emotional trauma afterwards. Who's to say how his thinking patterns were altered by experiencing such a horrific event at such a young age...and/or participating. Regardless of his involvement, after JBR's murder, BR had two spiraling parents, one of whom still faced serious cancer recurrences, and half-siblings across the country. The level of defense mechanisms enacted by the brain to protect against traumatic memories is extremely strong. Perhaps BR simply cannot speak about what happened. Perhaps he doesn't know and doesn't want to think about it. Perhaps he was involved. But, these points cannot be used either way.
 
So the question becomes, which one wanted JBR dead, and why?

If BR hit her in the head he almost certainly applied the garrotte as well, because if he didn't (apply the garrotte) then the likely response of the parent(s) would be to call an ambulance.

Even if it's argued that BR hit her and garrotted her, there is no sensible reason for the adult Rs to concoct a phoney kidnapping scenario when all that does is make it appear that one (or both) killed their daughter and tried to cover it up. Again, they did not run the risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit to "save" a boy who couldn't be prosecuted.

Chrishope,
Coroner Meyer cites asphyxiation as one cause of death.

The parents failed to dial 911 specifically because they knew it would result in the immediate arrest of all three remaining residents!

there is no sensible reason for the adult Rs to concoct a phoney kidnapping scenario
Yet they did, both are linked to the wine-cellar crime-scene via forensic evidence, particularly that which relates to JonBenet's, clean on, size-12's.

I would contend that JonBenet was ligature asphyxiated to mask a prior manual strangulation. Her head injury might result from a failed attempt to kill her by whacking her by using blunt force, i.e. a staged homicide.

Again, they did not run the risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit to "save" a boy who couldn't be prosecuted.
Yet they did. They paraded themselves on national tv outlining Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, ad infinitum. They both developed amnesia when interviewed, with Patsy even denying some of her own kitchen utensils belonged to her, and JR making up ludicrous stories about broken windows, lost keys, chairs that teleported in front of doors after the intruder exited the house, etc, etc.

JonBenet's wine-cellar crime-scene is a likely staged homicide with the intention of masking what originally took place at the primary crime-scene. Its possible the R's thought the WC staged crime-scene would be enough to fend off any questions regarding Ramsey involvement, regardless of who acutely sexually assaulted JonBenet!

.
 
So the question becomes, which one wanted JBR dead, and why?

If BR hit her in the head he almost certainly applied the garrotte as well, because if he didn't (apply the garrotte) then the likely response of the parent(s) would be to call an ambulance.

Even if it's argued that BR hit her and garrotted her, there is no sensible reason for the adult Rs to concoct a phoney kidnapping scenario when all that does is make it appear that one (or both) killed their daughter and tried to cover it up. Again, they did not run the risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit to "save" a boy who couldn't be prosecuted.

ITA with your comments, CH. IMO, in order to formulate a theory that points to either of the parents, we HAVE to accept the ligature strangulation as a deliberate act to end JB's life and then try to choose which of the adults in the home that night would have wanted her dead and why.

IF either of the parents knew of the head wound happening by BR (alerted by BR? or actually witnessing it by BR?), nothing should have prevented them from dialing 911 for help for their daughter. Their wealth, connections, etc. would have taken care of squelching most any news that would have gotten outside the ER walls, leaving the R's to cover up their personal dysfunction much more privately and effectively than they were able to do once the reality of the entire crime exploded.

IMO, whoever strangled JB by ligature did it knowing fully that the head blow could lead to JB divulging information to authorities, if she did recover in a medical facility, that would end up in the responsible party facing prosecutable charges. According to professional speculation, we know there may have been time enough between the head blow and the strangulation for the R's to phone their atty to learn that BR would not have been prosecuted for anything, so there just is no sensible reason for the following strangulation if it was BR delivering the bash. The strangulation, IMO, was to insure JB could never tell anyone what had caused the physical condition of her vagina that would have been discovered in the ER, which could not have been masked by the R's to the outside world if it was an adult perpetrator.

Occam's Razor always brings me back to JR having the most at stake. If it was PR alone, she would have had several avenues to use to get charges reduced: chemo brain, corporal punishment, medical cleansing, and JR would have used his resources to buy her a defense that eventually could put him in the public spotlight as a much aligned hero. His business life wouldn't have taken a hit because of him having a crazy wife that he could heroically support, then hide away and probably eventually divorce. But JR would have lost it all if JB could have ever identified him as a molester, and there is no doubt in my mind if he was sick enough to molest his 6 year old daughter, he would have also been sick enough to kill her to protect himself.

Problem for me is that as much as I see JR involved, the evidence leads me to consider PR as an accomplice to the staging of the crime, because she fell victim to guilt from knowledge of JB's chronic injuries and did not intervene. There is also a possibility that PR learned of activity that was again happening the night JB died, and circumstances led to her having to become a participant in the staging of the crime.

Sadly, JR will probably never have to answer to any charges in this life. But I have full confidence that he will eventually have to stand in Judgement for any part he could have played in JB's death, and at that time there will be NO escaping any due penalties if he is guilty.
 
Some very good points MWM. Just too add, if Burke had inflicted the head blow, I really don't think his parents would have sent him off first thing in the morning to someone else's house. That would been too much stress on the boy, especially after seeing the police at his house. The odds of him breaking down and spilling his guts at the Whites would be a far bigger liability than keeping him home under mom and dads wings. I feel he probably heard stuff, but at that point really had no idea what was happening. When John said "you went straight to bed and didn't see or hear anything", there was no internal conflict for him and the directions were quite simple. In other words, he could be trusted on his own.
 
I was reading older threads and noticed Burke had said" I know what happened to JB. Someone took her quitely took her to the basement took a knife out or hit her on the head". How did he know this I thought the R's didnt speak to him about what happened to her. To me thats suspicious. Also it said no one had released info about the knife at the time of the interview so how did he know it was there. I know I am back and forth on which RDI but in my opinion I do not think Patsy whacked her on the head with FL or golf club. Just cant see her doing that part. But she would have covered for her son and if only they had known he couldnt be prosecuted it would have saved JB life. I do however think(in this theory) she may have thought she was dead and used the garrote not knowing she actuall was alive and she just took the life out of her. MOO

I've always found the entirety of BR's words and behavior suspicious. Not necessarily in a BDI way, just that there is definitely something fishy with the kid. A few things on my mind:

1. You're right, how did he know this? Conjecture is one thing, and even a 9 year old could plausibly assume a scenario like this with no actual knowledge of the event. But considering there WAS a knife found (his knife, furthermore), and she WAS hit on the head, it's a little too bizarre to be a coincidence.

2. The fact that the Ramsey's repeatedly maintained that they never spoke of the murder or that night to Burke is just plain impossible to me. There's no way. I can see either of them not talking about it a lot, or letting BR lead them so as to not push him too hard, or talking about it so at least he had a sense of understanding. I cannot see them NEVER talking about it, never asking. I cannot see BR NEVER asking about JBR. From what I have gathered he was a fairly quiet and unemotional boy, not too untypical for a 9 year old, but it just doesn't ring true that he wouldn't ever bring her or what happened up. This also brings to mind his psych eval where his family picture did not include JBR - what, 13 days after the murder? That is incredibly strange, detached, unemotional. There is definitely something hinky THERE with BR, but whether that is due to his involvement in JBR's death or his knowledge of what happened, who's to say.

3. BR is the key here, I think. Whether it's in the fact that he KNOWS what happened, or he knows something of what happened, or simply that his own strange behavior and emotional response is indicative of something seriously wrong in that family.
 
JonBenet is seen twirling and posturing all over the news media for weeks on end, and the R's have nothing to say to BR?

Try the other leg it has bells on.


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Chrishope,
Coroner Meyer cites asphyxiation as one cause of death.

The parents failed to dial 911 specifically because they knew it would result in the immediate arrest of all three remaining residents!

Which of course is no problem if BDI. BR can't be prosecuted. They go to the police station and wait for their lawyers. 10 minutes later they are on their way home.

Yet they did, both are linked to the wine-cellar crime-scene via forensic evidence, particularly that which relates to JonBenet's, clean on, size-12's.

None of which would be the case if BDI.

I would contend that JonBenet was ligature asphyxiated to mask a prior manual strangulation. Her head injury might result from a failed attempt to kill her by whacking her by using blunt force, i.e. a staged homicide.


Yet they did. They paraded themselves on national tv outlining Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, ad infinitum. They both developed amnesia when interviewed, with Patsy even denying some of her own kitchen utensils belonged to her, and JR making up ludicrous stories about broken windows, lost keys, chairs that teleported in front of doors after the intruder exited the house, etc, etc.

None of which is necessary nor even desireable in a BDI case, therefore it's probably not a BDI case.

JonBenet's wine-cellar crime-scene is a likely staged homicide with the intention of masking what originally took place at the primary crime-scene. Its possible the R's thought the WC staged crime-scene would be enough to fend off any questions regarding Ramsey involvement, regardless of who acutely sexually assaulted JonBenet!

.

Not very likely. With a RN and a body there is nothing left to think but that one or both adults cooked up a phoney kidnapping scenario to cover up a murder they had done. The WC doesn't indicate a sex crime, as the sex crime is only discernable at autopsy but they had to know it would be discovered at autopsy, so nothing has been masked, just delayed.

Neither adult Ramsey ran the needless risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit. Since, as you correctly point out, they did in fact run that risk, it must be the case that one or both of the adults really did do the murder. It's not BDI.
 
Some very good points MWM. Just too add, if Burke had inflicted the head blow, I really don't think his parents would have sent him off first thing in the morning to someone else's house. That would been too much stress on the boy, especially after seeing the police at his house. The odds of him breaking down and spilling his guts at the Whites would be a far bigger liability than keeping him home under mom and dads wings. I feel he probably heard stuff, but at that point really had no idea what was happening. When John said "you went straight to bed and didn't see or hear anything", there was no internal conflict for him and the directions were quite simple. In other words, he could be trusted on his own.

This is a scenario that makes total sense with the happening. Burke's testimonies included statements that he "could hear the refrigerator door opening from his room", that " I know what happened to JB. Someone quietly took her to the basement took a knife out or hit her on the head". These fit with the fact that he was in his room during the time the crime took place, and that later on the R's coached him on the intruder version of the story.

Another thing to question is that there were no comments from the person who questioned Burke at the White's on the 26th as to whether or not Burke displayed any physical marks on his hands or face. JB, on the other hand, had abrasions. If Burke inflicted any of those onto JB during a fight, surely she would have gotten in a scratch, a bite, left a bruise, something. Otherwise, for Burke to have come through without displaying any marks to the investigator, it seems to me that JB would have had to have her hands secured or was unconscious, and if that was the case, BR was acting heinously, without conscience. And I would think that type of mental instability would have been noticed in other ways either just prior to the crime or just following the crime by playmates, teachers, adult family members or friends. BR returned to school not long after JB's death, which indicates to me that mainstream society had no fear of BR being anything more than a traumatized young boy whose sister had been murdered.
 
Which of course is no problem if BDI. BR can't be prosecuted. They go to the police station and wait for their lawyers. 10 minutes later they are on their way home.



None of which would be the case if BDI.



None of which is necessary nor even desireable in a BDI case, therefore it's probably not a BDI case.



Not very likely. With a RN and a body there is nothing left to think but that one or both adults cooked up a phoney kidnapping scenario to cover up a murder they had done. The WC doesn't indicate a sex crime, as the sex crime is only discernable at autopsy but they had to know it would be discovered at autopsy, so nothing has been masked, just delayed.

Neither adult Ramsey ran the needless risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit. Since, as you correctly point out, they did in fact run that risk, it must be the case that one or both of the adults really did do the murder. It's not BDI.

Chrishope,

Which of course is no problem if BDI. BR can't be prosecuted. They go to the police station and wait for their lawyers. 10 minutes later they are on their way home.
mmm, it appears you fail to grasp the object of the exercise, its not whether some R can be prosecuted or not, but that it should appear that no R was involved!

The medium to present this case is of course the wine-cellar staging.

None of which would be the case if BDI.
mmm, charitably I left out BR's forensic link to the wine-cellar. If the parents are attempting to cleanup one crime-scene and fake another to lead everyone astray, then regardless of which R is being covered for then the presence of forensic evidence linking to them allows the inference that either they are all complicit, or some are covering for others, simples!

Not very likely. With a RN and a body there is nothing left to think but that one or both adults cooked up a phoney kidnapping scenario to cover up a murder they had done. The WC doesn't indicate a sex crime, as the sex crime is only discernable at autopsy but they had to know it would be discovered at autopsy, so nothing has been masked, just delayed.
Sure and the masking facilitates the delay it buys time a body found asphyxiated in a bed might not!

Neither adult Ramsey ran the needless risk of being indicted for a murder they didn't commit. Since, as you correctly point out, they did in fact run that risk, it must be the case that one or both of the adults really did do the murder. It's not BDI.
Well your reasoning is suspect since the counter argument is that one parent has to convince another parent including BR to back their case. Which is difficult if its PR discovering JR abusing and killing JonBenet, and encouraging BR to collude? Similary if its PR. There are more inconsistencies in either a JDI or PDI or combination thereof, than there are in a BDI.

I have always found it difficult to convince people that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, including nearly everything about JonBenet, e.g. her clothing, the garrote etc.

This does not mean her acute sexual assault was fake, e.g. speculated insertion of paintbrush or her asphyxiation was fabricated only that these elements were introduced to mask prior outcomes at the primary crime-scene.

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