Ransom

[Fukiyama]

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bolded by me for reference

I read this to mean that there was a separate case opened as a result of these calls. For example, an extortion complaint.
Is this true? Or are these calls, and determining who made them, all part of the missing lyon sisters case? One case many questions to answer.

I would assume that in MD, like in any other state, making false claims is an offense along the lines of obstruction of justice, etc.

 

[SharetheLight]

I would assume that in MD, like in any other state, making false claims is an offense along the lines of obstruction of justice, etc.

This is correct but they don't necessarily open a new case to resolve that offense.
Opening a new case could possibly mean different officers assigned to the extortion charge.

I would think in the interest of efficiency the officers assigned to the abduction case would handle everything related to the abduction. If a time would come when a suspect is named and it turns out he made the extortion calls, they could charge him with different counts all in one charging document under one case number.
If a new case was opened solely to investigate the extortion/obstruction of justice, then it would take its own case number.
Assigning many case numbers to charges within the same crime doesn't make sense if the same person commited these offenses within a reasonable time frame.

Richard has talked to LE, I thought perhaps he had information that a separate case had been opened for the extortion charge since he stated that "they were still unsolved cold cases as well".

I interpreted cases to mean a case other than the original, the original being the girls abduction.
If this were the true, that a separate case file was opened to handle the obstruction of justice charge, that indicates to me that LE thinks someone other than the abductor made these calls.
That is why I asked the question as to whether or not LE did in fact open a separate case to handle the extortion/obstruction of justice charge.

Does anyone know if they did?

 

[Richard]

...I would think in the interest of efficiency the officers assigned to the abduction case would handle everything related to the abduction. If a time would come when a suspect is named and it turns out he made the extortion calls, they could charge him with different counts all in one charging document under one case number.
If a new case was opened solely to investigate the extortion/obstruction of justice, then it would take its own case number.
Assigning many case numbers to charges within the same crime doesn't make sense if the same person commited these offenses within a reasonable time frame....
That is why I asked the question as to whether or not LE did in fact open a separate case to handle the extortion/obstruction of justice charge.

Does anyone know if they did?

I do not think that a separate case number was assigned for the extortion attempt. I have never heard that that was the case.

Although the police did not think that the caller was involved in the abduction of the girls, they just did not know. IF they were to have leads to the extortionist and IF they KNEW for a fact that he was not part of the abduction, then they would have charged him appropriately.

BUT - they probably would have threatened him with more severe charges (such as kidnapping or murder) to get all the information out of him that he was able to give and maybe to get him to plead guilty to the extortion charge.

 

[Motherof5]

We know that it sure seems as if the ransom call was a hoax.I was wondering what everyone thinks about the ransom part being a hoax,but the call really being from the perp for the purpose of watching yet another situation that he created unfold.I think the perp who took these girls didn't target them,but probably enjoyed watching the situation he created as it was reported in the media.Maybe he made the call simply to create more drama that he could watch.What do you all think?

 

[SharetheLight]

We know that it sure seems as if the ransom call was a hoax.I was wondering what everyone thinks about the ransom part being a hoax,but the call really being from the perp for the purpose of watching yet another situation that he created unfold.I think the perp who took these girls didn't target them,but probably enjoyed watching the situation he created as it was reported in the media.Maybe he made the call simply to create more drama that he could watch.What do you all think?

I tend to believe that this is exactly what that call was about.

 

[Fukiyama]

We know that it sure seems as if the ransom call was a hoax.I was wondering what everyone thinks about the ransom part being a hoax,but the call really being from the perp for the purpose of watching yet another situation that he created unfold.I think the perp who took these girls didn't target them,but probably enjoyed watching the situation he created as it was reported in the media.Maybe he made the call simply to create more drama that he could watch.What do you all think?

We don't know when details of the ransom call were released. Unless the perpetrator was there personally to watch Mr. Lyon, it's unlikely he would have had much hoopla to watch from afar. A ransom demand just doesn't seem like something the police would release to the media while it was in progress or immediately after.

 

[Motherof5]

We don't know when details of the ransom call were released. Unless the perpetrator was there personally to watch Mr. Lyon, it's unlikely he would have had much hoopla to watch from afar. A ransom demand just doesn't seem like something the police would release to the media while it was in progress or immediately after.

I believe it was Richard who stated that news of the ransom call wasn't released to the media by LE but that a reporter broke the story.I wasn't trying to imply that the perp was watching from afar.I think he was most likely right there watching it all happen with a front row seat.I think he enjoyed making Mr. Lyon and LE jump through hoops and when the story broke,I think he enjoyed reading about the situation he created.Even if the caller wasn't the perp who took them,I don't think the call was about money.If he wanted money,he would have picked a different place for the drop.I think this call was from a twisted person on a power trip.

 

[SharetheLight]

I believe it was Richard who stated that news of the ransom call wasn't released to the media by LE but that a reporter broke the story.I wasn't trying to imply that the perp was watching from afar.I think he was most likely right there watching it all happen with a front row seat.I think he enjoyed making Mr. Lyon and LE jump through hoops and when the story broke,I think he enjoyed reading about the situation he created.Even if the caller wasn't the perp who took them,I don't think the call was about money.If he wanted money,he would have picked a different place for the drop.I think this call was from a twisted person on a power trip.

You could even take it a step further.
If the person who made the ransom call was the person who took the girls, and the call had nothing to do with money, but rather creating more stress in this family's life, and he wanted to watch the chaos up close, then the perp could be the one that alerted the media. It'd be interesting if we could find out how the media became aware of this.
LE wouldn't alert media.
The Lyon family wouldn't alert media.
Who else had knowledge that this call took place?
I can only think of one other person. The caller.
I'd also be interested to know the timing of the media being notified.
If the caller notified the media, he can relive the moments over and over again in black and white print.
I think this would fit the profile for someone who commits this type of crime.

 

[Motherof5]

You could even take it a step further.
If the person who made the ransom call was the person who took the girls, and the call had nothing to do with money, but rather creating more stress in this family's life, and he wanted to watch the chaos up close, then the perp could be the one that alerted the media. It'd be interesting if we could find out how the media became aware of this.
LE wouldn't alert media.
The Lyon family wouldn't alert media.
Who else had knowledge that this call took place?
I can only think of one other person. The caller.
I'd also be interested to know the timing of the media being notified.
If the caller notified the media, he can relive the moments over and over again in black and white print.
I think this would fit the profile for someone who commits this type of crime.

I think you could be right,we need to figure out who that tipster was.:waitasec:

 

[mnegri1973]

As to who actually leaked the ransom info to the media, it could have been someone from LE who did it. That was the speculation during the DC Sniper case. That someone from inside the investigation was leaking the info to the media. It really could have been anyone connected to the case, like a family member who was aware of the call or a close friend. There is just no way of knowing.

One thing that really bothered me when I read, was that one of the prank calls actually came from the Lyon's home? Did LE ever figure out who it was that made that call? How someone who was close enough to the family could do such a thing is just plain atrocious.

M ~

 

[Motherof5]

As to who actually leaked the ransom info to the media, it could have been someone from LE who did it. That was the speculation during the DC Sniper case. That someone from inside the investigation was leaking the info to the media. It really could have been anyone connected to the case, like a family member who was aware of the call or a close friend. There is just no way of knowing.

One thing that really bothered me when I read, was that one of the prank calls actually came from the Lyon's home? Did LE ever figure out who it was that made that call? How someone who was close enough to the family could do such a thing is just plain atrocious.

M ~

I don't think it was anyone in the family,that's just my opinion.The others are all possibilities to me.

 

[SharetheLight]

In the Free-Lance Star an article dated 3-8-76 says that the Lyon family received several calls from supposed kidnappers. But one call was taken seriously. This call led John and police investigators to an Annapolis bus station to comply with the self proclaimed kidnappers instructions. A call came in to a public phone at the bus station after which John and police tried to follow the callers instructions but ended up scaring him away. They returned to Wheaton angry and empty handed.

This is the first I've heard of a bus station. I don't believe a bus station is mentioned anywhere on this forum. The bus station could be significant because it allows a quick exit out of town.
The courthouse drop seemed improbably due to heavy presence of LE, but a bus station is very probable because theoretically a perp could take the money and hop a bus out of town.

This article didn't mention a ransom, so I may be adding facts that aren't necessarily true. All the article stated was the call was taken seriously, they went to the bus station, received a call, tried to follow instructions, and scared caller away.
So maybe this wasn't a ransom demand, maybe it was just a sick game. Nevertheless I found the location of this meeting an interesting possibility.

 

[Fukiyama]

Did you find this article yourself? If you can, could you post it in its entirety in the article thread? That'd be great.

 

[SharetheLight]

The TOS which is the first thread in this forum, #6 addresses reprinting published material in its entirety. It is prohibited.

I will post verbatim the paragraphs that address the bus station call.
This is taken from a copy I have of an Article from the Free Lance-Star, March 8, 1976, A year of frustration in search for sisters by Mark Bowden.
(I have left all spelling and other such errors and this posted verbatim)

"One call was serious enough for Lyon and a handful of top-ranking police investigators to drive to the Annapolis bus station to comply with the self-claimed kidnaper's instructions. City police were alerted and a tracer was ready on the line.
The call came in to a public phone in the bus station and the trace didn't work. For a few minutes Lyon and police made a fumbling effort to follow the caller's instructions and ended up scaring him away. They came back to Kensington angry and empty handed"

 

[Richard]

...The call came in to a public phone in the bus station and the trace didn't work. For a few minutes Lyon and police made a fumbling effort to follow the caller's instructions and ended up scaring him away. They came back to Kensington angry and empty handed"

I am pretty certain that the writer was trying to re-tell the story about how John Lyon and one of the top police officials went to Annapolis and left a bag in the men's restroom in the Ann Arundel County Courthouse - per instructions from an annonamous caller who claimed to have the girls.

The initial call was made to the Lyon home, and I believe that a subsequent call was made to the Lyon home by the same person AFTER the "money" drop had failed. The caller complained about the police presence as a reason for not getting the money.

I have often wondered if the police recorded either of the calls, and if they had made an attempt to trace them. A call to Kensington from Annapolis would have been a long distance call back then, and it would have been possible to do some kind of trace, just by asking the phone company.

 

[SharetheLight]

I am pretty certain that the writer was trying to re-tell the story about how John Lyon and one of the top police officials went to Annapolis and left a bag in the men's restroom in the Ann Arundel County Courthouse - per instructions from an annonamous caller who claimed to have the girls.

The initial call was made to the Lyon home, and I believe that a subsequent call was made to the Lyon home by the same person AFTER the "money" drop had failed. The caller complained about the police presence as a reason for not getting the money.

I have often wondered if the police recorded either of the calls, and if they had made an attempt to trace them. A call to Kensington from Annapolis would have been a long distance call back then, and it would have been possible to do some kind of trace, just by asking the phone company.

I wasn't under the impression that it was either one or the other. They both may have happened. This article did not mention a ransom, so maybe the demand was something else altogether. By assuming this article meant the courthouse not the bus station, one would have to give more credibility to one article over another. I wasn't going to go there.
A bus station and a courthouse are entirely different, I don't think a writer would confuse these two locations. And where the courthouse didn't make much sense for many reasons, the bus station certainly does.
Even so, I look at these two sources as equal and will entertain the possibility that John Lyon traveled to both the courthouse and the bus station at some point after the girls went missing. And these trips he took with LE were initiated by a phone call from the supposed kidnapper.

And yes, long distance phone records would show if a call from Annapolis was placed to a home in Kensington. But that is assuming the caller called from Annapolis, who's to say the caller wasn't somewhere much closer when he made that call. This would not show on any long distance records.

 

[Richard]

It has been five and a half years since anyone posted to this thread. With all of the recent interest and investigation, perhaps the ransom calls might be something to reconsider.

The ransom calls were made in the first week of April 1975, but the story about them was not released in the newspapers until a week or two later. By that time, police and John Lyon had pretty much decided that the calls were a hoax. Now, a simpleton named Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. is being considered as a "Person of Interest" in the case. It has been surmised that Lloyd might have called the police on 1 April 1975 in an attempt to collect on a $7,000 reward offered by WMAL radio and announced on that date in the news media. Could it be that he wanted to carry the game a bit further and decided to try for more money by way of an anonymous ransom call?

John Lyon spoke with the ransom caller and felt that the person was somewhat of an idiot to suggest the place of the ransom drop (the men's room at the Anne Arundel County Court House). The caller spoke with John Lyon after that unsuccessful ransom drop and complained that there had been too many police around the site. This would indicate that he had been in the area watching. John Lyon's impression was something like "what did you expect?"

It has been stated that the last ransom call might have origionated from a pay phone at a bus station. Lloyd Welch was known to travel primarily by public transportation, walking, or hitching rides. Certainly coincidential, but possibly significant.

Although there was no trace completed on the first call, MCP does have the details of that call as to when it was made and the general content in their files. With Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. as a potential suspect in this case, I wonder if MCP has requested the phone records of Edna Welch, Hyattsville, MD where Lloyd claimed to reside. Could Lloyd have been the ransom caller?

 

[simplifymylife2014]

It has been five and a half years since anyone posted to this thread. With all of the recent interest and investigation, perhaps the ransom calls might be something to reconsider.

The ransom calls were made in the first week of April 1975, but the story about them was not released in the newspapers until a week or two later. By that time, police and John Lyon had pretty much decided that the calls were a hoax. Now, a simpleton named Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. is being considered as a "Person of Interest" in the case. It has been surmised that Lloyd might have called the police on 1 April 1975 in an attempt to collect on a $7,000 reward offered by WMAL radio and announced on that date in the news media. Could it be that he wanted to carry the game a bit further and decided to try for more money by way of an anonymous ransom call?

John Lyon spoke with the ransom caller and felt that the person was somewhat of an idiot to suggest the place of the ransom drop (the men's room at the Anne Arundel County Court House). The caller spoke with John Lyon after that unsuccessful ransom drop and complained that there had been too many police around the site. This would indicate that he had been in the area watching. John Lyon's impression was something like "what did you expect?"

It has been stated that the last ransom call might have origionated from a pay phone at a bus station. Lloyd Welch was known to travel primarily by public transportation, walking, or hitching rides. Certainly coincidential, but possibly significant.

Although there was no trace completed on the first call, MCP does have the details of that call as to when it was made and the general content in their files. With Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. as a potential suspect in this case, I wonder if MCP has requested the phone records of Edna Welch, Hyattsville, MD where Lloyd claimed to reside. Could Lloyd have been the ransom caller?

I don't know about Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr., but I do know Marshall Dietz appears to have given up because he came to believe by his research and the comments from others that the "real kidnapper" was DeBardeleben and that he was behind the ransom.

He feels sinced they missed accepting that the ransom was real, that DeBardeleben was not caught and went on for many years more in his reign of terror.

I have tried in numerous ways to contact Mr. Dietz.
I feel he may be wrong about DeBardeleben and he needs to come back here to help.

 

[Richard]

.... Marshall Dietz appears to have given up because he came to believe by his research and the comments from others that the "real kidnapper" was DeBardeleben and that he was behind the ransom....

...I feel he may be wrong about DeBardeleben and he needs to come back here to help.

The Ransom Caller has never been identified, so it is anyone's guess as to who he was and what his motives were. There are a number of possibilities, the most prevalent being that it was a hoaxer who jumped in after hearing and reading about the missing girls and who enjoyed taunting the Lyon family and police.

It is possible, however, that he actually did have something to do with the girls' disappearance - or had knowledge of the actual perpetrators, and hoped to either make some quick money, or simply harrass family and police.

DeBardeleben was certainly an evil character who was involved in a wide range of criminal activities. But one would have to question his motives and look at his past behavior to see if making ransom calls or perpetrating hoaxes were something he had done before or after this time frame.

Making a call for any reason, such as to request a reward or ransom, puts the caller in a position of suspicion. It is a risk, because he is calling attention to himself. Obviously, to demand a ransom is to state that you actually have the missing person and can trade her for money. This is true whether or not the caller was actually the kidnapper.

In considering who might have made the ransom calls, consider some of the potential suspects and their behavior. Most would not care to associate themselves openly with any of their crimes or suspected crimes. But there were a few in this case who came to the attention of LE BECAUSE they talked about the Lyon sisters and indicated that they knew something about their disappearance. Those persons would be Raymond Mileski and Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.

I am not saying positively that either one of them was the ransom caller, only that their personalities and actions were somewhat consistant with the caller in that they both claimed to know something about the case at one time or another.

Milieski was in prison for the 1977 murders of his son and wife and by 1982, the Montgomery County Police had dug up his Suitland, Maryland back yard searching for evidence or bodies because he had allegedly told fellow prison inmates about being involved in the girls' abduction. Then in 2001, he was again offering to talk to MCP about the case in exchange for a prison transfer.

Lloyd Welch, also a prison inmate, is believed to have told a cousin about being at Wheaton Plaza the day the girls went missing, and has been named a Person of Interest by MCP. It is very possible that he called in a tip to MCP back on 1 April 1975, as he told his step mother was his intent. MCP has his Hyattsville address for that date in their files as being given to them by Lloyd.

A potential hoaxer might be the unnamed Prince Georges County man who called MCP claiming to be a Tape Recorder Man seen at Iverson Mall/Marlow Heights Shopping center (but who "Never" did his TRM thing in Montgomery County). He might have been telling the truth or might have been seeking some sort of attention or involvement in the case. Is it possible that he had earlier made the ransom calls?

I am sure that there were quite a number of hoaxers and crank callers in the days and months following the girls disappearance. The Ransom Caller might have been just one of them. Or he might have actually been involved in the girls disappearance and making a rather clumsey attempt to profit by it.

 

[mere]

What made LE believe the call "may" have come from a bus station? I am assuming that the ransom call was not recorded, but I wonder how much detail of the conversation Mr. Lyon was able to have documented by investigators.?.