AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

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Your data do not support your conclusion that children are being brought into care on invented reasoning. California has reduced the number of children in care by shortening the amount of time that they are IN care, something that has been a concern for many years actually pre-dating some of the privatization efforts. Some advocates actually oppose such efforts, claiming that they encourage premature severing of family ties, or alternately returning children to abusive situations.

Next question to be answered, in order to substantiate your theory, would be how Garland County is housing their foster children. Are they being placed through private foster care agencies (who actually just perform the tasks of screening and supervision of foster families--as agencies have done in the past)? Are these agencies operating on a profit or non-profit basis?

BBM. That is your interpretation, not mine. The data speaks for itself. FYI: According to the link I posted, Arkansas claims to have greatly reduced the amount of time children are IN care yet the same number of children seem to enter the system and leave the system each year. A revolving door that it isn't a theory, it is a fact. I have yet to see any real "advocate" claim the return of children is premature or are returning children to abusive situations. It doesn't matter if it is on a profit or non-profit status because the numbers tell the story. Anyone who is manipulating children in foster care to produce a profit are not operating in the best interest of the children and are, instead, seeking to profit from it. The seven Stanley children represent cha-ching!! $$$$$

JMO
 
BBM. That is your interpretation, not mine. The data speaks for itself. FYI: According to the link I posted, Arkansas claims to have greatly reduced the amount of time children are IN care yet the same number of children seem to enter the system and leave the system each year. A revolving door that it isn't a theory, it is a fact. I have yet to see any real "advocate" claim the return of children is premature or are returning children to abusive situations. It doesn't matter if it is on a profit or non-profit status because the numbers tell the story. Anyone who is manipulating children in foster care to produce a profit are not operating in the best interest of the children and are, instead, seeking to profit from it. The seven Stanley children represent cha-ching!! $$$$$

JMO

Ummm, no. Not-for-profits don't get to make profits. Hence the name (and the tax designation). For all we know at this point, Garland County DHS is operating in a highly traditional manner, recruiting, training and supervising their own foster parents internally.

You seem to be suggesting that there should be greater effort going into the prevention of removals (which, as it happens is something I agree with). This has not been the direction of child welfare for some decades, in my experience, although I can point to a few examples of agencies focusing on "preventive services." But the move to limit involvement to abuse, neglect and dependency cases goes back to the late 70s/early 80s in my experience. And it has nothing to do with turning a profit. In fact, it was a means of cutting budgets.
 
Just by way of keeping up to date, the two FB pages supporting the Stanleys have for several days had posts about a motion hearing on March 11--although the later hearing in March is still on the books. Neither site has mentioned whether it is the Stanleys or DHS that has brought the motion--just trying to get a lot of people to show up outside the courthouse. I don't want to guess to far without having any information, but I am wondering what kinds of motion the family might be able to file (assuming that DHS would be content to wait until the already scheduled hearing for any motions, unless they would be asking for some further limitations on the family). Thinking perhaps requests in the areas of schooling? church-going? (although, I think that this has already been accommodated, with a Baptist minister who works with DHS providing supervision to allow the children to worship at their home-church with supervision).
 
Ummm, no. Not-for-profits don't get to make profits. Hence the name (and the tax designation). For all we know at this point, Garland County DHS is operating in a highly traditional manner, recruiting, training and supervising their own foster parents internally.

You seem to be suggesting that there should be greater effort going into the prevention of removals (which, as it happens is something I agree with). This has not been the direction of child welfare for some decades, in my experience, although I can point to a few examples of agencies focusing on "preventive services." But the move to limit involvement to abuse, neglect and dependency cases goes back to the late 70s/early 80s in my experience. And it has nothing to do with turning a profit. In fact, it was a means of cutting budgets.
actually they do make profits, it is how the profits are spent that is the difference.
 
actually they do make profits, it is how the profits are spent that is the difference.

Charlie, its a bit of red herring. Nothing has been presented to suggest that this is the case in Garland County, Arkansas.
 
actually they do make profits, it is how the profits are spent that is the difference.

Exactly right. Federal money is flowing to state coffers at an alarming rate. Arizona is one of the worst states for removal of children for bogus medical reasons. The Justice Dept. needs to investigate every state. If the states are being reimbursed an average of $6,000 per child, per month = $63,000 for the Stanley children so far and the foster parent receives a pittance of the total. It's all about the money...

JMO

The Funds?
“For instance, in the case of foster care, the present reimbursement to state and local government for each child taken into foster care is approximately $6000/month. Yet the foster care provider (the foster parent) receives only somewhere around $600/month. Allowing about the same for administrative costs, each child in foster care is worth about $5000/month; that’s pure profit on the bottom line!” [8]


- See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/me...ollar-adoption-business/#sthash.5xuSO6d7.dpuf
 
non-profit status does not mean the company does not make a profit.

ETA: sorry, see this was already posted.
 
Just by way of keeping up to date, the two FB pages supporting the Stanleys have for several days had posts about a motion hearing on March 11--although the later hearing in March is still on the books. Neither site has mentioned whether it is the Stanleys or DHS that has brought the motion--just trying to get a lot of people to show up outside the courthouse. I don't want to guess to far without having any information, but I am wondering what kinds of motion the family might be able to file (assuming that DHS would be content to wait until the already scheduled hearing for any motions, unless they would be asking for some further limitations on the family). Thinking perhaps requests in the areas of schooling? church-going? (although, I think that this has already been accommodated, with a Baptist minister who works with DHS providing supervision to allow the children to worship at their home-church with supervision).

Could they file motions to exclude specific evidence? Or perhaps to take depositions?
 
non-profit status does not mean the company does not make a profit.

ETA: sorry, see this was already posted.

Right. non-profit status means the "company" does not pay taxes but in the Stanley case, I think the federal money is going into the state's coffers. Unemployed people don't pay a lot in income taxes and the state's largest employer is the state itself. Removal of children for medical reasons and placing them in foster care so federal money will pay for them is a cycle to justify government jobs.

JMO

35. Arkansas

> 2013 unemployment rate: 7.5% (18th highest)
> Median household income: $40,511 (2nd lowest)
> Poverty rate: 19.7% (4th highest)

Arkansas was among the states that elected to expand Medicaid coverage under the Affordable Care Act. While the implementation of the act is projected to lower the level of uninsured Americans significantly, according to groups such as Gallup and RAND Corporation, the change has been particularly dramatic in Arkansas. According to Gallup, Arkansas had the largest drop in the percentage of adults without health insurance between 2013 However, state residents are also quite poor. Nearly 20% of residents lived in poverty in 2013, and a typical household earned slightly more than $40,500, both among the worst figures in the country. Educational attainment in the state was also quite low. Just 84.4% of Arkansans 25 and older had a high school diploma in 2013, while just 20.6% had a bachelor’s degree, both among the lowest rates in the U.S.

Read more: The Best and Worst Run States in America: A Survey of All 50 - 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/special-report...n-america-a-survey-of-all-50-3/#ixzz3TY0ym1UU
Follow us: @247wallst on Twitter | 247wallst on Facebook

The biggest employer in Arkansas remains the state government, with more than 57-thousand employees. That's up more than 1 percent from last year.

http://www.thv11.com/story/money/business/2014/02/19/1753356/
 
Exactly right. Federal money is flowing to state coffers at an alarming rate. Arizona is one of the worst states for removal of children for bogus medical reasons. The Justice Dept. needs to investigate every state. If the states are being reimbursed an average of $6,000 per child, per month = $63,000 for the Stanley children so far and the foster parent receives a pittance of the total. It's all about the money...

JMO

The Funds?
“For instance, in the case of foster care, the present reimbursement to state and local government for each child taken into foster care is approximately $6000/month. Yet the foster care provider (the foster parent) receives only somewhere around $600/month. Allowing about the same for administrative costs, each child in foster care is worth about $5000/month; that’s pure profit on the bottom line!” [8]


- See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/me...ollar-adoption-business/#sthash.5xuSO6d7.dpuf

Frankly I find health impact news (Medical Kidnapping!) to be more than a little quirky. However, I did read your link and found the citation for the quoted amount. This goes to another agenda-driven site that quotes someone who ran for office and allegedly knows from the inside what is happening with all those dollars. What I don't see is any hard and fast indication of the amount of Federal (apparently Title IV-E) dollars on a per-child basis. The second article does talk about a waiver (I believe in California) that operates similar to the way in which some states have contracted with HMOs to provide Medicaid services. Instead of a reimbursement for actual services provided--which can get tedious--an amount is agreed to, typically slightly less than the average per recipient cost based on history, and paid in all cases. So--while some cases cost far less, some others will cost far more. Now, whether this amount is $6,000 is still open to question--I haven't seen anything to substantiate that amount. In the case of the Stanley children, we are looking at a direct per-child foster care payment directly to the foster parents. We have the cost of case management--someone has had to set up the plan for the parents, locate services, monitor compliance and so forth. We know that there have been parenting classes, that is an expense. The children left home with 2 days clothing, so they probably received a voucher of some sort for the foster family to buy them some clothes. Certainly there would be purchase of school supplies. We know that the children have been seen by doctors--at least two of them for illness, in addition to whatever diagnostic screening was necessary. There is the cost of the Guardian Ad Litem for the children. Visits have been supervised by two people--this would make for personnel costs. At the parents' insistence, one of these visits was for the purpose of allowing a weekend worship at their home--perhaps an additional cost. The parents have received "psycho evaluations" (to use Michelle's terminology)--these cost money. There are legal costs on the county side (whether contracted or regular staff). Oh--and foster parents must receive regular training and supervision--another expense.

Now, I don't want to discount the reality that there are contractors providing elements of foster care who have cut all kinds of corners to turn a profit--and that kids have been hurt as a result. Because that is a serious concern. But I am also not willing to blindly leap on a bandwagon that assumes that because the Stanleys are white, Christian home-schoolers that they have been targeted in a part of some underhanded money-making scheme.
 
Oh, I forgot the list the cost to the county of answering all the phone calls of people who have been urged to contact them (some are calling daily) to demand that they set the Stanley children free.
 
Frankly I find health impact news (Medical Kidnapping!) to be more than a little quirky. However, I did read your link and found the citation for the quoted amount. This goes to another agenda-driven site that quotes someone who ran for office and allegedly knows from the inside what is happening with all those dollars. What I don't see is any hard and fast indication of the amount of Federal (apparently Title IV-E) dollars on a per-child basis. The second article does talk about a waiver (I believe in California) that operates similar to the way in which some states have contracted with HMOs to provide Medicaid services. Instead of a reimbursement for actual services provided--which can get tedious--an amount is agreed to, typically slightly less than the average per recipient cost based on history, and paid in all cases. So--while some cases cost far less, some others will cost far more. Now, whether this amount is $6,000 is still open to question--I haven't seen anything to substantiate that amount. In the case of the Stanley children, we are looking at a direct per-child foster care payment directly to the foster parents. We have the cost of case management--someone has had to set up the plan for the parents, locate services, monitor compliance and so forth. We know that there have been parenting classes, that is an expense. The children left home with 2 days clothing, so they probably received a voucher of some sort for the foster family to buy them some clothes. Certainly there would be purchase of school supplies. We know that the children have been seen by doctors--at least two of them for illness, in addition to whatever diagnostic screening was necessary. There is the cost of the Guardian Ad Litem for the children. Visits have been supervised by two people--this would make for personnel costs. At the parents' insistence, one of these visits was for the purpose of allowing a weekend worship at their home--perhaps an additional cost. The parents have received "psycho evaluations" (to use Michelle's terminology)--these cost money. There are legal costs on the county side (whether contracted or regular staff). Oh--and foster parents must receive regular training and supervision--another expense.

Now, I don't want to discount the reality that there are contractors providing elements of foster care who have cut all kinds of corners to turn a profit--and that kids have been hurt as a result. Because that is a serious concern. But I am also not willing to blindly leap on a bandwagon that assumes that because the Stanleys are white, Christian home-schoolers that they have been targeted in a part of some underhanded money-making scheme.

If you view the government data that is linked on that site you will see that the majority of children in foster care in Arkansas are white. I don't believe the Stanleys were targeted because of their religion, I believe they were targeted because their children are home schooled and the family is poor. That has been my opinion from the beginning of this case. The state is collecting money from the federal government and other sources for the 7 Stanley children.

JMO
 
This makes me ILL!

Children are not possessions. Neither are wives.

Who in the H*** has the right to hit another person?

Is it OK for you to be hit???

Then why is it OK for a grownup to hit someone small??

There are so many ways of parenting that do not involve power and control and violence.

Where is God in this? Hitting children?? Ugh
 
I posted something earlier, but it is not here now. Too much Biblical discussion?

Anyway--it was a lengthy response to Michelle Stanley's post today that was essentially positing children as possessions of their parents.
 
As I have stated to you previously, backed up by links, CPS determined there was abuse, took the children into custody, filed an emergency petition allowing them to keep the kids in care longer and requested adjudication of the abuse issue. CPS did that. Not LE.

Yes, LE conducted a parallel investigation as to possible criminal conduct. That is different from the CPS investigation. Only CPS has the power to file a petition to remove the children from their parents. When LE investigates and determines there is abuse they call CPS. CPS then is the entity who decides whether he kids will be removed. Not LE.

Anyhow, you keep changing what you're saying. First you said the Stanleys didn't know about any physical abuse allegations until the probable cause hearing. When I disproved that, you stated CPS determined the allegations were unfounded. When I proved there was nothing to support that assertion, you stated that it was the sheriff's decision to remove the kids.

I feel we are going around in illogical circles. LE has nothing to do with filing petitions to take kids into state care except calling CPS. CPS makes the decision. No matter what the Stanleys might have said.
Thank you so very much for your rational and much-needed presentation of the FACTS in this case.

As a person who once worked in social services and child advocacy in that state, I find the claim of the state profitting from protective intervention misguided if not downright seriously ludicrous.

As to "targeting", there are legions of poor white home-schooled children in Arkansas and as long as the children are safe and secure, the state wants absolutely no part of responsibility for their care, I assure you.

There is one reason why these children have been in protective services: one or more knowledgeable adult(s) reported concerns that were investigated according to standard protocol, including interviewing the children themselves. Standard protocol. Reason was found to retain the children in protective services.

Privacy for the children is a right protected by law and professional ethic, so don't even begin to think we know the fine details that the professionals know in this case. Wanting to know every detail of what went on this home is intrusive and smacks of drama rather than concern for the interests of the children.

Thanks again, Gitana1, for being such a wonderful advocate for the voiceless.
 
I should add that parents who've had their children placed in protective services NOT claiming persecution and unfounded grounds is practically unknown. Never knew of a single case.
 
Thank you so very much for your rational and much-needed presentation of the FACTS in this case.

As a person who once worked in social services and child advocacy in that state, I find the claim of the state profitting from protective intervention misguided if not downright seriously ludicrous.

As to "targeting", there are legions of poor white home-schooled children in Arkansas and as long as the children are safe and secure, the state wants absolutely no part of responsibility for their care, I assure you.

There is one reason why these children have been in protective services: one or more knowledgeable adult(s) reported concerns that were investigated according to standard protocol, including interviewing the children themselves. Standard protocol. Reason was found to retain the children in protective services.

Privacy for the children is a right protected by law and professional ethic, so don't even begin to think we know the fine details that the professionals know in this case. Wanting to know every detail of what went on this home is intrusive and smacks of drama rather than concern for the interests of the children.

Thanks again, Gitana1, for being such a wonderful advocate for the voiceless.

Yeah, it's not like people who work for state government have their own agenda or are trying to defraud the system. Nah, that never happens, right? one or more adults are also required to provide proof of child abuse beyond hearsay. A minor detail, but incredibly necessary to some of us...and to the Supreme Court. Parents do have the right to confront their accusers.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...eachers-can-act-as-law-enforcement-offficials

JMO
 
Yeah, it's not like people who work for state government have their own agenda or are trying to defraud the system. Nah, that never happens, right? one or more adults are also required to provide proof of child abuse beyond hearsay. A minor detail, but incredibly necessary to some of us...and to the Supreme Court. Parents do have the right to confront their accusers.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...eachers-can-act-as-law-enforcement-offficials

JMO

There was a recent case (perhaps 3 years ago) in Mississippi (I think). It was linked from one of the FB pages, and I think the story ran on the Medical Kidnapping site. In fact, authorities did bungle the case badly. In the end, it's anybody's guess whether there was actual abuse or neglect because any evidence obtained without a warrant was tossed out of court. And the parents then left the state. Although there is nothing in what has been reported to suggest that home-schooling was an issue, the children in that case ARE being homeschooled. And the Home School Legal Defense Association is now representing the family in a lawsuit. The only reason I can imagine that they have been willing to go beyond their usual parameters of taking only home-schooling cases is that the parents called HSLDA when the authorities were on the front porch and HSLDA was apparently advising them in means of resisting--which may not have been actually the most helpful and perhaps their taking on this lawsuit is an admission of their own liability.

But I bring this case up because it is VERY different from the Stanley case. 1) Authorities in that case did not obtain a search warrant--in the Stanley case there was a search warrant. 2) In that case the family resisted--which resulted in an escalation of efforts. The Stanleys cooperated. 3) In response to the family resistance the authorities used force--including pepper spray and a taser. No such force was used in the Stanley case. 4) The parents in the Mississippi case were arrested--stemming from the altercation with the police, which actually created the need to put the children into temporary care as the parents were unavailable to care for them. In the Stanley case the children were removed because there was evidence of actual dangers to the children.

In short, this case seems to have been handled pretty much by the book--all parental protests to the contrary.

The judge has made a couple of rulings based on evidence presented--which in all likelihood go far beyond "hearsay" (which would be the testimony of someone who did not actually witness an action or situation, but rather just heard about it from someone else). Any abuse within the house has at a minimum the witness of each child who was a victim--and several of the children are of an age to be considered very credible.
 
FB indicating the hearing coming up is at 11:00 on March 11.

I have to say, the FB posts from MS yesterday and today are very disturbing to me to read. Nearly 8 weeks into this, and both posts read very much to me like an angry message of protest, with repeated emphasis on how they have been "robbed" of what she perceives as absolute divine authority over their children. That indicates to me that things might not be going well in the parenting classes and psychological counseling/ evaluation process. It also indicates, IMO, that she continues to place "blame" on the kids for not submitting absolutely to their authority as parents, as well as blaming outsiders who have "taken" authority from them. JMO.

Also a very odd reference at the end to how much they "miss" the 2 oldest who are grown and on their own. And that in and of itself is telling to me.That says to me that maybe there isn't as much warm, supportive, and loving contact with the oldest 2 as she would desire in this time of family crisis. (And again, never a single mention, supportive or otherwise, of HS's five other grown children.) Why in the world tack that statement onto the angry protest message? Unless it's a message telegraphed to the 2 oldest, as well as all of their supporters.

MS is also discussing pleading about "melting" the children's hearts--and that's definitely not a hopeful sign, IMO. That indicates ongoing conflict, IMO, and more rallying of their supporters not just in support, but in opposition to the usurpation of what they perceive as their absolute divine authority over their children, IMO. (And again, more subtle "blaming" the kids for what is going on, IMO.) HS is not in the pic posted today, not is it mentioned why. He's been in every other visitation pic.

IDK how it's all going, but none of this reads as "hopeful" to me. It reads as intense frustration, continued rejection of the process by the mother, and angry blaming of the kids and authorities. That doesn't seem to bode well for rapid reunification. JMO.

ETA: It's a nice pic, BTW-- the kids appear happy, well dressed, clean, and comfortable in the pic, girls leaning into mom, etc.
 
Nowadays it is considered a crime to beat your wife or SO. At one time, it was considered family business and no one stuck their nose in.

If someone sees a dog being hit, people get up in arms.

For some reason, children can still be hit as long as it does not leave marks.

Seriously, when are children going to be looked at as real living breathing individuals and not the property of their parents? When???
 
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