Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[topratedsleuth]

CPH can't be too happy about how FOX is taking up the story. Michael Baden is a FOX personality, of course, and it looks like FOX plans on running with the CPH angle. In a new story, it is asserted that SG's hyoid bone "showed roughness" on one side, and they imply this could indicate strangulation. The story also states that Baden is going to continue his tests (he appears in the accompanying video).

 

[BirdycatNY]

Autopsy Could Present New Twist in Hunt for Long Island Serial Killer
http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/03/14/autopsy-could-present-new-twist-hunt-long-island-serial-killer
March 14, 2015

The reporter also reported that the serial killer could be responsible for up to 17 victims. Wow, I did not know this, who are the 17 victims of possibly same serial killer? I don't think news had angle necessarily directed at CH, but obviously if SG was murdered, then Brewer, Hackett, Pak and anyone else that Shannon encountered that evening are certainly suspect. Maybe it's time to start re-questioning the locals around Oak Beach and "boyfriends/pimps" if there is strong possibility SG was murdered, it certainly narrows down suspects to Oak Beach area or SG relations. Jmo/

 

[SherlockKittyCat]

Autopsy Could Present New Twist in Hunt for Long Island Serial Killer
http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/03/14/autopsy-could-present-new-twist-hunt-long-island-serial-killer
March 14, 2015

The reporter also reported that the serial killer could be responsible for up to 17 victims. Wow, I did not know this, who are the 17 victims of possibly same serial killer? I don't think news had angle necessarily directed at CH, but obviously if SG was murdered, then Brewer, Hackett, Pak and anyone else that Shannon encountered that evening are certainly suspect. Maybe it's time to start re-questioning the locals around Oak Beach and "boyfriends/pimps" if there is strong possibility SG was murdered, it certainly narrows down suspects to Oak Beach area or SG relations. Jmo/

Found this story on Fox today and was intrigued that the serial killer might be Brewer, Hackett or Pak, or maybe someone else. It would have to be someone that not only SG encountered but those 17 as well...

 

[Emre E]

I believe Shannan Gilbert was OD'ed by CPH. If there's a damage on the hyoid bone, which miraculously shows up now, I suspect MP can be responsible for that.

LE can not take back the time to see what went on that night, but they can look into Hackett's and Pak's phone records to see if they have ever been in contact after the night, which I believe they were.

As usual, I bet a small amount that Pak never called Shannan after the incident because he never wondered where she was, as he already knew where she was.

And of course; I know that decent work is done by decent people, not by crooks.

 

[LISleuth]

I do remember many posts made claiming that her hyoid bone was missing. Obviously, it was not accurate info if Baden is seen on Fox News handling SG hyoid bone & remarking about it's "roughness" on one side. It's a good question to ask "where that originated". Was it rumor that took on a life of it's own? Or did it fill a theory of who did it such as one with medical knowledge who would know to remove the hyoid to destroy evidence? Clearly, Baden has the hyoid & obviously SC ME never stated it was missing. As Baden's report states, the cartilage was missing but not documented by the ME. The question is where did JR get the info by which he was quoted?

I smell something fishy!

Here is an excerpt from an article, dated May 1, 2012 | 10:33pm, which mentions missing hyoid.


Her lawyer, John Ray, said that when the skeletal remains of Gilbert, 24, were found in December in Oak Beach — a year and seven months after her May 2010 disappearance — the only two bones missing were the hyoid bones of the neck. They are crucial in determining whether a victim was strangled to death, he said.

FULL ARTICLE:
http://nypost.com/2012/05/01/family...t-says-they-believe-serial-killer-slayed-gal/

 

[deedee21]

Did the media quote JR? Maybe not. They have a history of making things up.

 

[topratedsleuth]

In the newest update to the FOX story...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/1...erial-killers-dumping-ground-likely-murdered/
...Baden says

"The hyoid shows some breakage," Baden told FoxNews.com. "If it is a fracture, that would be strong evidence Ms. Gilbert was strangled to death by neck compression."

He adds that the thyroid cartilage was not present in the remains he examined although that hadn't been reported missing previously by LE. And also that a small, "unusual" hole was found in the hyoid bone that warrants further analysis. Lastly, Baden is ordering a diatom test to determine whether SG drowned, stating that such a test was never conducted by LE (obviously, though SG is "buried", some of her must not be if there's further testing still going on).
I think that the drip drip drip of statements through FOX by Baden is designed to keep the story in the spotlight, which is good for Baden and FOX but also, imo, good for a possible conclusion to the questions about SG.

 

[deedee21]

Can we count the times LE said SG probably drowned in the marsh? Maybe the ME did not bother to do the the test because he or she knew it was homicide. A negative result would take away LE ability to say she probably drowned. If this sounds synical its because i lost faith. Seriously, what would the ME excuse be for not conducting a test that might have determined if she drowned or not?

 

[deedee21]

If Shannans death is ruled a homicide, does that mean she was killed by the LISK?

 

[hawkshaw]

It appears to me that LE did everything in their power to make SG's death an accident. Everything they did was to put distance between SG and JB, and who knows who and what else?

 

[fieldnotes]

That Diatom test sounds complicated and from what I just read you need to have a similar sample of the water where she drowned because from season to season and from one specific spot to another the consistency can vary so much that it is impossible to get an accurate reading. Of course, that's a guy with not much science background reading off the internet so take it for what it's worth...

And then Baden saying the Gilgo victims were "yards away" from Shannan bothered me and makes me wonder if he's ever driven from Oak Beach to Gilgo. Maybe he was misquoted or just speaking in hyperbole (which a Medical Examiner really shouldn't do in my opinion) but I guess what I'm saying is I just hope he's not another talking head with his own agenda because this case and the world-at-large has had enough of that already.

 

[Theforeigner]

That Diatom test sounds complicated and from what I just read you need to have a similar sample of the water where she drowned because from season to season and from one specific spot to another the consistency can vary so much that it is impossible to get an accurate reading. Of course, that's a guy with not much science background reading off the internet so take it for what it's worth...

And then Baden saying the Gilgo victims were "yards away" from Shannan bothered me and makes me wonder if he's ever driven from Oak Beach to Gilgo. Maybe he was misquoted or just speaking in hyperbole (which a Medical Examiner really shouldn't do in my opinion) but I guess what I'm saying is I just hope he's not another talking head with his own agenda because this case and the world-at-large has had enough of that already.

Hi F

Take a look at this post I posted back in December 2011:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ember-10-2011-Thread-13&p=7440710#post7440710

"Yes they CAN find out wheter she drowned or not even if it is only skeleton remains, read Dr. Badens explanation on this + more in this link:

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking...eath-1.3388774

Here is a quote concerning drowning:

The examination of skeletal human remains found Tuesday near Oak Beach, besides determining whether they belong to a missing Jersey City woman, can also point to the cause of death, an expert said.

Key forensic clues can survive in bones and teeth even over the 19 months the remains -- if they are Shannan Gilbert's -- would have been exposed to the elements, said Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner.

Police theorize Gilbert drowned in a wetland thicket. Baden said water contains diatoms, a type of phytoplankton that if inhaled, can later be detected in bone marrow.

"If they are present and they match what's found in the water, that will indicate she was alive and breathing when she went into the water," he said."



SO that means...

IF Shannan died by drowning she would, no matter what, have diatoms in her bone marrow.

But if you want to be able to find out what pool of water she drowned in, you are right, you need a sample of the water you believe she drowned in, in order to be able to compare if the diatoms in her marrow is concistant with the diatoms in the pool of water you belive she drowned in (she was found in).

BUT if Shannan did NOT have any diatoms in her marrow, then she did NOT drown.

 

[fieldnotes]

Oh I see that makes sense. Thanks TF for clearing that up for me. Well, then why the heck wouldn't SCPD do that test? I'd love to know the positioning of her remains when they were found.

 

[CriminalMinds]

Hi F

Take a look at this post I posted back in December 2011:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ember-10-2011-Thread-13&p=7440710#post7440710

"Yes they CAN find out wheter she drowned or not even if it is only skeleton remains, read Dr. Badens explanation on this + more in this link:

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking...eath-1.3388774

Here is a quote concerning drowning:

The examination of skeletal human remains found Tuesday near Oak Beach, besides determining whether they belong to a missing Jersey City woman, can also point to the cause of death, an expert said.

Key forensic clues can survive in bones and teeth even over the 19 months the remains -- if they are Shannan Gilbert's -- would have been exposed to the elements, said Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner.

Police theorize Gilbert drowned in a wetland thicket. Baden said water contains diatoms, a type of phytoplankton that if inhaled, can later be detected in bone marrow.

"If they are present and they match what's found in the water, that will indicate she was alive and breathing when she went into the water," he said."



SO that means...

IF Shannan died by drowning she would, no matter what, have diatoms in her bone marrow.

But if you want to be able to find out what pool of water she drowned in, you are right, you need a sample of the water you believe she drowned in, in order to be able to compare if the diatoms in her marrow is concistant with the diatoms in the pool of water you belive she drowned in (she was found in).

BUT if Shannan did NOT have any diatoms in her marrow, then she did NOT drown.

forensic limnology wiki it

 

[deedee21]

Is the test reliable at this point in time?

 

[hawkshaw]

It is only reliable if they WANT it to be. A few years back a guy was convicted of a crime he may not have done. A few years ago a guy was convicted of a murder of a prostitute. He said that while having sex with her she dropped dead. As he was married he didn't want to deal with the obvious. He buried her in a field. She was in the ground for less than 2 months. That guy was caught and he led them to the body.

The ME could not find a cause of death - or so he said. The DA said the defendant choked her to death. The ME couldn't call it a murder and somehow the guy got convicted. How do you charge a man for murder when the ME can't call it a murder.......or maybe even a murder?

 

[bessie]

SO that means...

IF Shannan died by drowning she would, no matter what, have diatoms in her bone marrow.

But if you want to be able to find out what pool of water she drowned in, you are right, you need a sample of the water you believe she drowned in, in order to be able to compare if the diatoms in her marrow is concistant with the diatoms in the pool of water you belive she drowned in (she was found in).

BUT if Shannan did NOT have any diatoms in her marrow, then she did NOT drown.

<rsbm>

Not necessarily.

JOURNAL OF FORENSIC SCIENCES
The data suggest that a positive test outcome is useful in determining if drowning was the cause of death or a contributing factor in death. Conversely, a negative outcome of the test does not exclude drowning as a cause of death since many factors determine test outcome including the concentration of diatoms in the drowning medium.

http://www.biologia.ufrj.br/PDF_BOT...tic_Value_of_the_Diatom_Test_for_Drowning.pdf

However, it is important to remember that the absence of diatoms does not immediately rule out drowning; the test does not prove the negative, and a thorough investigation is always required.

http://omicsonline.org/role-of-diatoms-in-the-world-of-forensic-science-2157-7145.1000181.pdf

 

[margol29]

Just my 2 cents here. Even if the diatoms are found as proof of drowning, that does not mean that it was an accident. If SG was drugged or unconcious and put there by someone hoping she would drown that is still foul play. JMO

 

[hawkshaw]

I'll say it again and will say it again as many times as I have to get it into the heads of the naysayers. SG was a prostitute that advertised on Craigslist. The other gals found nearby were prostitutes that advertised on Craigslist. They were all murdered. She went to Brewer's house and stayed there for 3 hours. Brewer said she wasn't brought there for sex. She is heard on that 911 call screaming they are going to kill me. She is dead. Brewer has been cleared of that murder. While he may not have committed the murder I can't believe he could have been cleared, given the information we have.

A detective that investigated that case writes an unsolicited letter to Newsday stating he heard the tape and in his opinion she didn't sound like her life was in danger. I think we can all agree that isn't exactly true.

I was a NYC detective for most of my 29 years in that department. I can tell you a detective will never write such a letter if he wasn't told by his superiors to write such a letter. It just doesn't happen.

The tapes have never been released.

 

[minazoe]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/1...ntcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obnetwork

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