NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[Caffeine]

Not the type of odds I'd put money on...but perhaps better odds versus the notion of something like sex slavery or alien abduction. [emoji14]

But this person doesn't necessarily have to be a serial predator, career criminal etc. Perhaps just someone with bad intentions. Maybe a rejected sexual advance and things spiraled out of control.

Again, just my opinion. [emoji1]

 

[McSpy]

I don't think that his intention was to trash anyone. I honestly believe Renner wanted to write a book that looked at the facts from a fresh angle. It just so happened that he puts things up on his blog without naming his sources and often times those "facts" make Maura look bad (they would make anyone look bad). I recall that when the blog first started the date for the book was given at sometime in early 2013 (don't quote me on this exactly). At any rate, it was not going to be long before we got the book and the all the sources and good judge the credibility of what Renner has to say. Well now there will nearly five years from when stuff was put up on the blog and from when the book comes out. I know Renner got sidetracked with another project, but that does not change the fact that so much of his information has been out there in the public with nothing to support it for way too long.

I will give Renner credit for digging up what I consider important facts like the credit card fraud. When I read the track team orgies post though I felt a bit icky about being a supporter of the blog. Now had he offered proof that they were really something Maura did and that one of the guys had a cabin five miles from the crash site, well then I would feel differently about it.

Once he announced that the book was about him and his experiences I had a really bad feeling about the whole thing, and BTW I know Renner defends it but surely he has seen that the overall reaction has been quite negative. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I would not have given him the benefit of the doubt so much had I know that was his angle.

BBM

IMO, the way he has handled his blog has always pointed to this kind of approach--no concern for the family or Maura. They are just characters in his story. Keep in mind, he is no closer to finding what happened to Maura than we are. Maybe we should write a book.

 

[Tssiemer]

I would read a websleuths book on MM.


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[McSpy]

Not the type of odds I'd put money on...but perhaps better odds versus the notion of something like sex slavery or alien abduction. [emoji14]

But this person doesn't necessarily have to be a serial predator, career criminal etc. Perhaps just someone with bad intentions. Maybe a rejected sexual advance and things spiraled out of control.

Again, just my opinion. [emoji1]

I have always thought this could have been a possible scenario. Her age group is an absolute target for this sort of thing as well. She was young, cute, and in the middle of nowhere. She was also in an emotional state. She possibly wanted to get out of Dodge fast (car accident/DUI), so she may have accepted a ride she otherwise wouldn't have accepted in other scenarios.

JMO

 

[rubylulu19]

.

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[Ricochet]

I know that I'm late to the party, but I don't find these podcasts to be helpful or reliable and if anything further confuses matters. It seems from previous posts they don't back up their facts, and they do get information wrong. When it appears to happen frequently I think the whole thing has to be taken with a grain of salt.

In the latest podcast Before Rte 112 (Part 1) dated July 23rd they make it sound impossible that the credit card number could be on the receipt unless it was done the old fashioned way that produced a carbon copy. This was 2004, and the full credit card number did appear on some receipts. Laws were beginning to take affect but not all companies had made the full transition.

I believe everything Maura said about finding a credit card receipt in a trash can and using the number from that receipt. The situation involving the credit card which is in the documents section of James Renner's blog on page 14 of that document is a receipt from Pinocchio's. The credit card number is redacted, while the numbers can't be made out you can see the bottom portion of the numbers (pg 14). On (pg 15) they didn't bother redacting the credit number at all because only the last four numbers appeared 1944, which matches the credit card number she used 4326 2600 2416 1944 (pg 20). The point being if the full credit card number didn't appear than there would've been no need to redact it.

Also, the credit card didn't belong to a person on the same floor as Maura. She lived on a different floor above Maura, it was her friend that lived on the same floor as Maura, and I believe she stated in the report that she had discarded food on the floor that Maura lived.

I'll rely on the official documents rather than the information presented in the podcast. It seems to me their purpose isn't to present new facts, but further complicate and sensationalize the events surrounding the disappearance of Maura.

 

[Caffeine]

I have always thought this could have been a possible scenario. Her age group is an absolute target for this sort of thing as well. She was young, cute, and in the middle of nowhere. She was also in an emotional state. She possibly wanted to get out of Dodge fast (car accident/DUI), so she may have accepted a ride she otherwise wouldn't have accepted in other scenarios.

JMO

Indeed. Not only does she potentially want to flee the scene of an accident/crime...it's a February evening in NH. There's a good chance it's absolutely frigid outside, too.

I won't necessarily dismiss the notion she wasn't traveling alone, whether she had a passenger or a car traveling with her. However, no witnesses at the scene mention another occupant of the car. Also, there's no correspondence to indicate she traveled with anyone in a separate car. No emails, no calls, no mention of it by friends. I do think it's odd she decided to drive her poorly running car on a road trip alone, but you would think if she was meeting someone to drive in tandem, there would be at least one call prior to meeting up. But still, if she planned to travel with a friend, acquaintance, or even a relative stranger...why not leave her old Saturn behind? Even if she was just having a young, impulsive moment and made up her mind to drive that car I still feel we'd have some clues from her cell as to who she was meeting, traveling with etc.

If she was traveling with another car, how did this person or person(s) she ended up trusting enough to travel with, ultimately end up whisking her away never to be seen again? It just doesn't seem probable to me. Friends or acquaintances would have tended to the issue of a crashed car full of booze, even if they were trying to conceal a DUI. Leaving the car there would just lead to questions from cops and possibly her parents finding out about yet another accident.

Had she truly been traveling alone, there was no cell reception, it's the middle of winter and she just drunkenly crashed her car...I'm willing to bet she would have taken a ride from just about anybody who offered her a lift.

 

[Fireweed]

I know that I'm late to the party, but I don't find these podcasts to be helpful or reliable and if anything further confuses matters. It seems from previous posts they don't back up their facts, and they do get information wrong. When it appears to happen frequently I think the whole thing has to be taken with a grain of salt.

In the latest podcast Before Rte 112 (Part 1) dated July 23rd they make it sound impossible that the credit card number could be on the receipt unless it was done the old fashioned way that produced a carbon copy. This was 2004, and the full credit card number did appear on some receipts. Laws were beginning to take affect but not all companies had made the full transition.

I believe everything Maura said about finding a credit card receipt in a trash can and using the number from that receipt. The situation involving the credit card which is in the documents section of James Renner's blog on page 14 of that document is a receipt from Pinocchio's. The credit card number is redacted, while the numbers can't be made out you can see the bottom portion of the numbers (pg 14). On (pg 15) they didn't bother redacting the credit number at all because only the last four numbers appeared 1944, which matches the credit card number she used 4326 2600 2416 1944 (pg 20). The point being if the full credit card number didn't appear than there would've been no need to redact it.

Also, the credit card didn't belong to a person on the same floor as Maura. She lived on a different floor above Maura, it was her friend that lived on the same floor as Maura, and I believe she stated in the report that she had discarded food on the floor that Maura lived.

I'll rely on the official documents rather than the information presented in the podcast. It seems to me their purpose isn't to present new facts, but further complicate and sensationalize the events surrounding the disappearance of Maura.

It is not just that they do not explain some things quite right, but they also have no idea how to form a tight narrative. The podcast is just a mess to me. I am surprised that "filmmakers" are seemingly not good at all at presenting information in a clear and suspenseful way. If you compare this to the Sword and Scale or Serial podcast there is no contest. I would expect two guys who know their stuff to have a good hook at the beginning of each episode and to not have this podcast in a banter style format. It just makes the whole thing dull when it should be interesting. If I were making this podcast I would have started the first episode with some clips of her family members asking her to just come back and telling her that she wasn't in any trouble. You know, whet the appetite of the listener a little bit. Make them wonder what the "trouble" might have been. There is so much that could have been done with this and instead we just get two dudes talking. I am surprised only because these guys are ostensibly documentary filmmakers who ought to have a really good background in how to tell a story. It is clear to me that they don't.

 

[scoops]

Just an interesting timeline of how the family began shifting beliefs of what happened to Maura publically:
Fred actually strategizes, IMO, about turning this case into a foul play case.

One day after accident and maura going missing:
Fred’s first initial response to Maura going missing as told by the lead detective

Lt. Scarinza ===== “Around mid-afternoon Tuesday, Fred Murray called Haverhill P.D. "What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw." (In reference to Fred Murray calling 911 on Tuesday Feb 10, 2004).

Fred Murray ======== On his arrival day to the accident scene Wednesday Feb 11, 2004 as he talks to the Union Leader Newspaper Fred Murray said he wants to tell his daughter that whatever is troubling her, its nothing that cant be worked out.

“I dont know what the matter is, or the trouble you think you might be in, he said, “but it isnt anything we cant solve. Its me, you can tell me. We’ll work it out until we solve it.”

Fred changing his tune 2 weeks after accident

Fred Murray ===== Two weeks after Maura went missing in a newspaper article now by Associated press

Frederick Murray said he is afraid the search is slowly grinding to a halt. "We should think of it in terms of a criminal investigation," Murray said. "It sounds like it would be the key to expanding it. Let's grab the bull by the horns and call it foul play."

Five Months after accident and ever since:

Fred and family completing at odds with police by now:

Fred Murray ====== in July of 2004 who had long since reversed his beliefs (at least when tape recorders were rolling) speaking to the Caledonian Record Newspaper

"If he goes with the suicide theory, that means nothing happened on his turf and during his watch," Murray said. "However, when you have a bad guy (involved), it's in (Scarinza's) back yard and he can't solve it."
"He's pushing it (suicide theory) hard," he continued. "He's to the point he's making things up."

 

[Sutton]

I love Jeremy Renner for the book he wrote about, and his continued attention to Amy Mihaljevic (Amy: My Search for Her Killer). He's an investigative journalist. I think he's been very upfront about what he's doing, and don't believe he's trashed Maura in any way. If anything, he's tried to show her for who she truly was--flawed and imperfect and complicated. But I understand why others may have different opinions of Mr. Renner. Not trying to convince anyone I'm right, just stating my perspective.

I don't post on Maura's thread, but like hundreds of others (possibly thousands?), I follow her case closely. I am thankful for everyone who cares about Maura.

 

[Sutton]

There is so much criticism and negativity in this board...wow. Don't like the podcast? Don't listen. Don't like Renner? Don't read his blog.

You didn't invest in these things. They're free!!

ETA: I'm not referring to posters who noted mistakes or questionable facts in the podcast or blog, those are legitimate points that others need to be aware of. Thanks for making those known.

 

[Fireweed]

1. His name is James Renner.

2. I will criticize and be "negative" about anything I jolly well feel like.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

TDon't like the podcast? Don't listen. Don't like Renner? Don't read his blog.

You didn't invest in these things. They're free!!

The problem with this line of thinking is that we're not talking about a bit of harmless entertainment like, say, the new Fantastic Four movie. Maura Murray is an actual person who went missing and left behind people who continue to suffer. A podcast full of mistakes, a book larded with reckless sensationalism, and wild, unsourced allegations in both only serve to further muddy the waters and decrease the likelihood that this case will ever be resolved.

 

[Aynia]

1. His name is James Renner.

2. I will criticize and be "negative" about anything I jolly well feel like.

I know we're OT but I'm with you.
This is a victim friendly forum, the blog in question is not! That's why I don't read it anymore.
Again sorry for the OT.

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[Sutton]

I just got done listening to the second podcast (in buildup for the documentary being done on Maura's case) and I will say that I am excited that these two guys are making the effort to cover multiple angles.

But I wanted to share some things that I think at minimum need to be explored before chasing down rabbit holes that go nowhere.

First and most important:

To my knowledge, it was never established that a phone call upset Maura that Friday morning she was working.

FACT: Maura became upset at work as a dorm monitor sometime after midnight
FACT:Maura's supervisor was asked to go check on Maura which she did shortly before 1 a.m.
FACT:Maura didn't acknowledge the supervisor when first encountered as she stared directly past the supervisor who approached Maura and stood right in front of her as Maura sat frozen for a period of time before breaking down crying. Maura's cell phone was sitting on the desk, but not being used at this time as verified by the supervisor.

FACT: Shortly after Maura went missing, the supervisor gave a written disposition to the police and described in that statement that when she asked Maura what was wrong that Friday morning during Maura's shift, Maura replied "My Sister"

FACT: Police, who were telling the media (very early on) they were searching for the source of what caused Maura to become upset, keyed in on the statement from the supervisor saying "My sister" while also discovering that Maura talked to her sister Kathleen that night leading police to go on record saying they found the source of what caused Maura to become upset that night at work and that was a phone call.

FACT: Media ran with a phone call at work caused Maura to become upset.

FACT:the phone call between Maura and her sister was from precisely 10:10 p.m. to 10:38 p.m., Maura became upset at work around 12:45 a.m. (Doesn't jibe at all and is pure speculation to say this call is what upset her)

Another fact and maybe just a tidbit to this case, but rather interesting one:

One block over from where Maura was working that night at approximately 12:20 a.m., Petrit Vasi was found lying in the road unconscious after being struck by a car from a hit and run driver. He had presumably been laying there for several minutes before police responded.

FACT: that has never been discussed publically by law enforcement:
Maura talked vie her cell phone to her boyfriend Billy Rausch from 12:07 a.m. to 12:14 a.m.
Was Maura on break duing this cell phone call? Could she have been chatting and driving at this time?
Why has police or family for that matter never brought up this boyfriend-girlfriend phone call interaction at this pretty pivotal time?
Why has family allowed a 10 o clock phone call between Maura and her sister to stand as the point of confusion for police and the public for all these years, when they know that phone call absolutely is not what upset Maura?

BBM. Wow. Was this fact included in the podcast? Where is this fact from? I haven't heard this before, but it obviously changes many things, if true.

 

[McSpy]

There is so much criticism and negativity in this board...wow. Don't like the podcast? Don't listen. Don't like Renner? Don't read his blog.

You didn't invest in these things. They're free!!

ETA: I'm not referring to posters who noted mistakes or questionable facts in the podcast or blog, those are legitimate points that others need to be aware of. Thanks for making those known.

What is wrong with talking about it? I used to go to his blog, but got turned off by some of his posts. I don't like when bloggers get cruel with the family just because they will not talk about the case. Posts can be stated with some care, so why the tabloid approach? It doesn't advance the case at all, IMO.

IMO, Maura was troubled (anxiety, bulimia?) before she disappeared, but this isn't anything unusual for her age group. I think a lot of what has been brought up is only white noise. Her case is probably a lot simpler than all the dirt dredged up on her family.

 

[Caffeine]

Renner's blog is interesting. Some posts are insightful, some are not. I commend his examination of the case, even if it isn't always the direction I'd take.

It gets a bit conspiracy theorist-ish at times... I think in the end we'll have a pretty straight forward chain of events of what happened. If we ever get a break with it, that is.

 

[Aynia]

Guys I love you all but if we keep talking about that blog we're gonna get an administration warning or worse so, yeah
Anyway I'd love to know if that late night call with the boyfriend is true because as said above, it would change everything we've been thinking, just MOO

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[Sutton]

Guys I love you all but if we keep talking about that blog we're gonna get an administration warning or worse so, yeah
Anyway I'd love to know if that late night call with the boyfriend is true because as said above, it would change everything we've been thinking, just MOO

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I would love to know this, too. I don't remember hearing it in the podcast, that's why I was wondering where the info came from. Maybe I just zoned out when this was being discussed? Hopefully scoops will confirm the source.

 

[Fireweed]

Maura s cell phone bill flashed on her disappeared episode and it showed a 1207 call from a new city number which is where west point is. I don't know for sure the source that confirmed it was Billy but scoops is accurate with his factual information. I sometimes disagree with his conclusions but I'm sure he has the source. At any rate Maura got a call from some one who got their cell phone in New city at 1207 which is obviously much closer in time to her breakdown than the call with her sister. Btw there is no proof whatsoever that a phone call made Maura upset. None. The upsetting phone call story is 100% the assumptionof third parties. I have seen no proof that Maura ever got an upsetting phone call yet the new podcast takes it as fact that she did. One reason I find the podcast to be amateurish and poorly thought out.