MI - Three siblings in juvenile detention for contempt, Pontiac, 9 July 2015

[gitana1]

Some people send their kids for court ordered visitation only to never see them again. But at least they followed all the rules.

How does this statement make a lick of sense? The man has supervised visits. No one has found yet that he is a risk to his kids safety or welfare. In only two cases am I aware of that children were taken or killed during supervised visits, which occur all around the country, every day, thousands of times per day. In both those cases the fathers were murderers prior to the visits taking place.

Please. It is ridiculous to suggest that it is okay that the kids not be ordered to have a supervised lunch with dad or that mom take them to therapy because some people have kidnapped their kids. If that was an excuse no one would ever have to follow any family court orders.

 

[jjenny]

How does this statement make a lick of sense? The man has supervised visits. No one has found yet that he is a risk to his kids safety or welfare. In only two cases am I aware of that children were taken or killed during supervised visits, which occur all around the country, every day, thousands of times per day. In both those cases the fathers were murderers prior to the visits taking place.

Please. It is ridiculous to suggest that it is okay that the kids not be ordered to have a supervised lunch with dad or that mom take them to therapy because some people have kidnapped their kids. If that was an excuse no one would ever have to follow any family court orders.

You should not take my post out of context. I was responding to a poster claiming that even a truly abused wife must follow court rules.

 

[Margo/Mom]

You should not take my post out of context. I was responding to a poster claiming that even a truly abused wife must follow court rules.

And in fact, that is the case.

There are in fact multiple means of providing protections THROUGH the legal system when there are legitimate concerns. IN THIS CASE, the court has gone far and beyond the provision of protection for every suggested threat, real or imagined--beginning with requiring that Dad turn in his passport when he visits the kids (so he can't pull a Mom and leave the country with them). Since 2011 all visits have been supervised, despite a level of concern that was characterized by CPS as being "low"--in response to reported threats.

The most recent attempt to trump up support for keeping the kids from Dad was the ER visit--claiming that Dad abused the kid, in the presence of the parenting supervisor, who did nothing.

Sorry folks--I spend too much time on the interwebs reading posts from people who have cooked up a grand conspiracy theory involving Dad, the judge, the parenting supervisor and the entire counseling and legal community of Oakland County Michigan. Sometimes enough is just too much.

Hoping that the reunification experience goes well--I think camp is over tomorrow?

Betting on fireworks from Mom, though.

 

[flourish]

Basically, children are constantly punished by the court for not wanting to spend time with dad.
Is that going to somehow endear him to the children?
At 14, I certainly knew who I wanted or didn't want to spend time with.

That last sentence says so much.

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[LinasK]

I'm just gonna say it the way I see it. Even if mom were truly abused by dad, how dare she use that to contravene law & order. (Posted as a DV survivor who followed every single directive issued by the Family Court and eventually relocated my own children abroad.)

Victimization shouldn't put us above following rules and I believe people who openly, defiantly flout such rules are at least nearly as bad as those making false allegations. It all muddies the waters for judges, advocates, attorneys, and even society. If mom's worst fear is that the children are exposed to her abusive ex - why would she put the children in a position that may well find 'abusive' dad as their primary parent?

JMO and FWIW

:clap::clap:Great post!:goodpost:

 

[MyBelle]

You should not take my post out of context. I was responding to a poster claiming that even a truly abused wife must follow court rules.

You responded to a poster who said she was a victim of domestic violence who followed court rules. BBM

Originally Posted by BritsKate
I'm just gonna say it the way I see it. Even if mom were truly abused by dad, how dare she use that to contravene law & order. (Posted as a DV survivor who followed every single directive issued by the Family Court and eventually relocated my own children abroad.)

Victimization shouldn't put us above following rules and I believe people who openly, defiantly flout such rules are at least nearly as bad as those making false allegations. It all muddies the waters for judges, advocates, attorneys, and even society. If mom's worst fear is that the children are exposed to her abusive ex - why would she put the children in a position that may well find 'abusive' dad as their primary parent?

JMO and FWIW

 

[jjenny]

That last sentence says so much.

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What is it do you think it says?
The only thing I meant is that a 14 year old knows what he wants or doesn't want.
If that 14 year old committed a crime, he could be charged as an adult.
Yet somehow I am supposed to believe he doesn't know which parent he wants to stay with?

 

[flourish]

What is it do you think it says?
The only thing I meant is that a 14 year old knows what he wants or doesn't want.
If that 14 year old committed a crime, he could be charged as an adult.
Yet somehow I am supposed to believe he doesn't know which parent he wants to stay with?

It says to me that your perspective on the general topic of this case has some personal experience behind it.

Eta: no judgement it is what it is. Just adds insight IMO


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[Margo/Mom]

What is it do you think it says?
The only thing I meant is that a 14 year old knows what he wants or doesn't want.
If that 14 year old committed a crime, he could be charged as an adult.
Yet somehow I am supposed to believe he doesn't know which parent he wants to stay with?

14 year olds know their own minds. This does not make them adults, or capable of making sound judgments. As a matter of fact, they frequently have much in common with 2 year olds, who also know their own minds.

Further, this case has been ongoing since this particular 14 year old was 8 or 9. And the 14 year old is also heavily involved in influencing the minds of two younger siblings.

The corollary to what you are advocating, which seems to continually go unnoticed is, if we allow this 14 year old to unilaterally terminate his father's parental rights, do we allow that same choice across the board--to children who only have one parent with custody, or to children who may choose to terminate custody of both parents? And if so, who then becomes responsible for that child? Can a 14 year old young woman, for instance, throw off the shackles of her parents and select a 30 year old as her new father? Can a 14 year old opt in to the foster care system? Most states have pretty much eliminated emancipation of minors--but are you calling for a return? And at what age would you allow these new children's options to kick in?

 

[jjenny]

14 year olds know their own minds. This does not make them adults, or capable of making sound judgments. As a matter of fact, they frequently have much in common with 2 year olds, who also know their own minds.

Further, this case has been ongoing since this particular 14 year old was 8 or 9. And the 14 year old is also heavily involved in influencing the minds of two younger siblings.

The corollary to what you are advocating, which seems to continually go unnoticed is, if we allow this 14 year old to unilaterally terminate his father's parental rights, do we allow that same choice across the board--to children who only have one parent with custody, or to children who may choose to terminate custody of both parents? And if so, who then becomes responsible for that child? Can a 14 year old young woman, for instance, throw off the shackles of her parents and select a 30 year old as her new father? Can a 14 year old opt in to the foster care system? Most states have pretty much eliminated emancipation of minors--but are you calling for a return? And at what age would you allow these new children's options to kick in?

Yet if a 14 year old were to kill someone, he/she would likely be charged as an adult. Then we wouldn't argue he/she has more in common with a 2 year old. Certainly at 14 year old can articulate which parent he wants to live with.

 

[flourish]

Yet if a 14 year old were to kill someone, he/she would likely be charged as an adult. Then we wouldn't argue he/she has more in common with a 2 year old. Certainly at 14 year old can articulate which parent he wants to live with.

Every time we have a case involving a teenager this comes up. It's comparing apples with oranges. Furthermore, this case is about three children who don't have the basic respect to attend court as ordered and who utilize tactics like the silent treatment and feigned "dad's germaphobia" bs. They clearly aren't mature enough to make decisions. Honestly it doesn't sound like the mom is, either. I think she's setting an awful example for her kids. She could have taken the opportunity to teach her children self-advocacy, how to act appropriately in uncomfortable situations, and various aspects of the legal system. Instead she taught them to act entitled, disrespectful, and, IMO, fabricate to get their way. Not skills conducive to future success,IMO.

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[lisalei321]

Yet if a 14 year old were to kill someone, he/she would likely be charged as an adult. Then we wouldn't argue he/she has more in common with a 2 year old. Certainly at 14 year old can articulate which parent he wants to live with.

They can definitely articulate it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still not their decision to make.

My son wanted to live with his dad at 14, without the agreement of the Judge, it never would have happened.

Amazingly enough, even though his dad and I divorced when he was 2...and his dad moved 4 states away, thanks to phone calls, summer visitation and AOL messenger...he had/has a great relationship with his Dad. Even though for 12 (most of anyway) years he bitc*ed about having to be home for scheduled calls.

I would really like someone to explain the advocating of the dad being an absentee dad...I really would.

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[LinasK]

Yet if a 14 year old were to kill someone, he/she would likely be charged as an adult. Then we wouldn't argue he/she has more in common with a 2 year old. Certainly at 14 year old can articulate which parent he wants to live with.

Articulate yes, but it doesn't always mean it's in their best interests, especially when the other parent has been brainwashing them against the non-custodial parent. 14-year-olds are extremely immature (that's why the comparison to 2-year-olds, though they may be physically capable of murder). I oughta know, I have one. For example: Sat. night we had to take our dog to the Emergency Vet and took teenager along. What does she do while we're waiting in the exam room for the doctor? Start opening drawers, takes out a latex glove and proceeds to blow it up! Normally she tries to hack computers. She's highly intelligent but...

 

[lisalei321]

I wonder when the kids are due back in school?

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[BritsKate]

What is it do you think it says?
The only thing I meant is that a 14 year old knows what he wants or doesn't want.
If that 14 year old committed a crime, he could be charged as an adult.
Yet somehow I am supposed to believe he doesn't know which parent he wants to stay with?

My 15 year old suspected borderline daughter recently told me she doesn't need a counselor, she just needs a boyfriend. So yes, she knows she doesn't want to go to counseling...but she can't possibly see, as a 15 year old, the potential ramifications of not going. I, through a mom's eyes, see an adulthood of nothing but self-inflicted heartbreak and misery for her unless she gets help to develop healthier coping strategies, challenging her negative thought patterns, identifying what behaviors are abusive or inappropriate, etc.

Sometimes, the difference between a child knowing what they want and knowing what is truly in their best interests are worlds apart.

JMO

 

[NSS]

Sometimes even Judges acknowledge that children are aware of what is best for them. A 12 year old (in the UK) was heard and determined to be of an age and maturity to have his views considered and granted.

He lives with the parent of his choice. (High Court Decision, 5th Nov. 2012)

 

[flourish]

Sometimes even Judges acknowledge that children are aware of what is best for them. A 12 year old (in the UK) was heard and determined to be of an age and maturity to have his views considered and granted.

He lives with the parent of his choice. (High Court Decision, 5th Nov. 2012)

It's too bad the kids and mother in this case lack maturity.

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[NSS]

I agree that the mother in this case has serious issues. How on earth does such a well educated woman act in such a damaging way?

The Judge is included in my previous sentence.

I am trying to put myself in the childrens shoes here, they appear to have been indoctrinated to a severe degree by Mum, or have a real fear of dad, whichever it is, it has affected the children. Their behaviour was not simple disrespect, it was self preservation. They are afraid of their dad, or their Mum (and they won't go against her wishes if they feel they will be returned to her). Their counsellors, teachers, neighbours, GAL, share everything they say or do with a courtroom Judge (yes, thats how it works, but as a kid would you want to tell them a secret - to be shared with all). Then the very Judge you should be able to trust to see through the 'back and forth of parents', turns on you too.

As a child I'd feel, confused, lost and alone, very alone - no wonder they lean on each other, THEY are the only ones who know what it really happening, and their anger is the outward face of an underlying fear.

Who are they really afraid of, why and what can this Judge ever hope to achieve with them now. She was very disrespectful to them and the Mother that she placed them with.

The kids will hear - your mum is a nasty woman, she is damaging you, and you may have to go back and live with her.........I would be doing Mums bidding just in case.

 

[gitana1]

Sometimes even Judges acknowledge that children are aware of what is best for them. A 12 year old (in the UK) was heard and determined to be of an age and maturity to have his views considered and granted.

He lives with the parent of his choice. (High Court Decision, 5th Nov. 2012)

Yes. And these children have not been judged to be of an age and maturity to have their "wishes" considered as the court
rulings show.

And this not about which parent they will live with. It's about severing the parental relationship altogether. This family is not you and your child.

 

[NSS]

Yes. And these children have not been judged to be of an age and maturity to have their "wishes" considered as the court
rulings show.

And this not about which parent they will live with. It's about severing the parental relationship altogether. This family is not you and your child.

Neither is it about the children of the posters who agree with your position and yet you thanked every personal post that said their child wasn't mature. I believe that my experiences are as valid as theirs.

I spoke about this case and the children in the previous post. The parents screwed up big time, the Judge screwed up big time. The children are a product of these screw ups. I can't offer a way to change what has already happened, but I have made several posts on how things could possibly move forward in a positive way for the children. I just happen to believe that this judge blew it.

These children really need someone who cares about them. Someone who will ignore the parents, ignore the Judge and really hear what they are saying, not just the words but the pain behind it. If the Judge can't enforce her own orders without resorting to punishing children, then maybe Family Court is no longer where she should be. Make the orders and carry them out, she has let the parents play this game for too long. There would be no need to sever contact permanently with either parent if the process wasn't weighted so heavily in favor of parents rights IMO.