GA - 103 Yr old woman banned from lifelong church

[Sweetgrits]

There's definitely not enough information for me to have a opinion on this. Everything reported so far is very vague.

Is the pastor more progressive and she is old school? I have no idea! I can't form a opinion on the little that has been reported so far.

In my heart I think this may be the problem. When my husband and I got married we started going to the church his parents and grandparents had been members of for years. I think we were the only couple under age 50 years old. When our new younger. more fired up pastor came in the church really didn't like that he was different from the "normal" United Methodist pastors. Boy did they complain. That being said, I can't think of any reason this lady was "thrown out" of this church unless she was interrupting the services for other members. JMO

 

[Margo/Mom]

In my heart I think this may be the problem. When my husband and I got married we started going to the church his parents and grandparents had been members of for years. I think we were the only couple under age 50 years old. When our new younger. more fired up pastor came in the church really didn't like that he was different from the "normal" United Methodist pastors. Boy did they complain. That being said, I can't think of any reason this lady was "thrown out" of this church unless she was interrupting the services for other members. JMO

Being progressive doesn't typically align with kicking people out. Generally more progressive believers tend to be MORE inclusive.

Now--I do know churches that have struggled with the inclusion of people with various mental disorders whose behaviors ran the gamut from open disruption of services to simply being oppositional and tending to suck all the attention to themselves in any and all circumstances--resulting in major morale problems and paralysis of action. So, I don't want to overlook the possibility that this is simply a mishandling of a genuinely difficult circumstance.

But--I have to go back to the red flags of this being a Baptist congregation and the woman's description of the pastor as being a holy roller. While many of us are accustomed to church structures in which there is a larger church available to assist in working through pastor/congregational difficulties--and in fact there are such structures available within the Baptist fold broadly defined--there are also growing numbers of Baptists who reject any notion of accountability to a larger church body and define themselves as Independent Baptist. Among core beliefs (if any group defined primarily by Independence can truly be defined as having core beliefs) is the Pastor as God's direct emissary having the final word, accountable to no man (and certainly no woman). As this movement grows (and numbers are hard to come up with, given their lack of affiliation) the tendency is for a flock to coalesce around a minister--with the only available resolution for conflict is for congregants to leave--frequently splintering off into a home-based worship situation.

Personally I see this as being not particularly good for the Body of Christ (looking at it as a Christian), but it is also something that societally we should have some concerns about as there are minimal mechanisms to guard against abuse of the weak and helpless (children and the elderly--among others). Certainly physical abuse is a baseline concern--but so is emotional and financial abuse.

 

[Tulessa]

Becoming a scardy cat to post, but I have got to comment on this one. My Grandfather was an Old Regular Baptist preacher for 30+ years. Wear makeup to church? You're out. Cut your hair? You're out. Wear pants, you're out. My soul was already in Hell according to him before I graduated HS.

 

[kimlynn]

In my heart I think this may be the problem. When my husband and I got married we started going to the church his parents and grandparents had been members of for years. I think we were the only couple under age 50 years old. When our new younger. more fired up pastor came in the church really didn't like that he was different from the "normal" United Methodist pastors. Boy did they complain. That being said, I can't think of any reason this lady was "thrown out" of this church unless she was interrupting the services for other members. JMO

I wonder if it's possible that the pastor was deceptive before he was hired by the church. For some reason they thought he was Baptist.
I can understand why Genora is upset as even the name of the church identifies it as a Baptist church.
My understanding is she was banned after she spoke with the pastor. If she had been disruptive the police would have removed her.
I don't think she was the only member that had her membership revoked. Were they all disruptive at the services?
There had to be a better way to handle the situation than banning and calling the police. They had to know that there would be an outcry from the community.
IMO

 

[Margo/Mom]

I wonder if it's possible that the pastor was deceptive before he was hired by the church. For some reason they thought he was Baptist.
I can understand why Genora is upset as even the name of the church identifies it as a Baptist church.
My understanding is she was banned after she spoke with the pastor. If she had been disruptive the police would have removed her.
I don't think she was the only member that had her membership revoked. Were they all disruptive at the services?
There had to be a better way to handle the situation than banning and calling the police. They had to know that there would be an outcry from the community.
IMO

Well, just as there are Christians who claim that other Christians are not really, truly Christian, I would imagine that not every Baptist is in agreement regarding what it means to be a Baptist.

That said, there is also a phenomenon known as "steeple-jacking," in which a minister applies to the search committee of a church, being recommended as something vague like "a real good Christian." They may be willing to affiliate denominationally, or respect the beliefs of those already in membership. And good-hearted folks decide that it doesn't really matter so much what denomination you are, and hire the person. What then commences is a process of gradually rewriting church policies and practices, as well as bringing in new members with a commitment to the new minister. And a few years down the road there is a majority willing to cut denominational ties. I have known of some specific cases. Sometimes it fails and the minister is asked to move on--frequently splitting the church as a result. Such "sheep stealing" efforts have specifically targeted successful mainline churches--with an intent to move/replace their theology with something more restrictive, and in some cases more in line Dominionist (theocratic) thinking.

Don't know if that was the case here. But it does happen.

 

[Margo/Mom]

http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/06/calling-renewal-groups-to-account.html

A bit about steeplejacking for any with an interest.

 

[musicaljoke]

The pastor is a paid employee, and according to most church by-laws, he doesn't get a vote on such matters as membership. He's an ex-officio member of all committees ... no voting privileges. Me thinks that the church is rotten and that the rot may have set in from the top.

 

[Dockins]

I have seen a church revoke and refuse actual memberships, but never ban a person from attending.

 

[kimlynn]

Well, just as there are Christians who claim that other Christians are not really, truly Christian, I would imagine that not every Baptist is in agreement regarding what it means to be a Baptist.

That said, there is also a phenomenon known as "steeple-jacking," in which a minister applies to the search committee of a church, being recommended as something vague like "a real good Christian." They may be willing to affiliate denominationally, or respect the beliefs of those already in membership. And good-hearted folks decide that it doesn't really matter so much what denomination you are, and hire the person. What then commences is a process of gradually rewriting church policies and practices, as well as bringing in new members with a commitment to the new minister. And a few years down the road there is a majority willing to cut denominational ties. I have known of some specific cases. Sometimes it fails and the minister is asked to move on--frequently splitting the church as a result. Such "sheep stealing" efforts have specifically targeted successful mainline churches--with an intent to move/replace their theology with something more restrictive, and in some cases more in line Dominionist (theocratic) thinking.

Don't know if that was the case here. But it does happen.

Thanks for posting this very helpful information and the link below. I had no idea about this sort of thing.
Maybe that is why the pastor (according to Ms Biggs) won't speak with her.
I do have to admire her grit and determination for showing up after being banned. I would love to have been a fly on the wall that day.

 

[JeannaT]

The fact that the pastor and the signers of the letter wouldn't talk to the news speaks volumes. If they would have said well you know, no one wants to kick a little old lady out of her church, and it looks like we're mean spirited, but the fact is people come to worship together and we've tried to work with her but she sits in the front row and argues with the pastor and won't stop.

We'd all get that. Anyone would get that. But they're not saying it.

I've always belonged to denominational churches, where the church hierarchy would step in in cases like this and settle this dispute. Who owns this church? Someone or some group must have ownership.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

There is a little bit more information in this podcast from some of the members of the church.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/church...enora-biggs-grandson-robert-dye-special-guest

Skip the the 45 min. mark and a lady gives a few more details. There were other members that were also told they were voted out of the church and received letters.

 

[kimlynn]

The fact that the pastor and the signers of the letter wouldn't talk to the news speaks volumes. If they would have said well you know, no one wants to kick a little old lady out of her church, and it looks like we're mean spirited, but the fact is people come to worship together and we've tried to work with her but she sits in the front row and argues with the pastor and won't stop.

We'd all get that. Anyone would get that. But they're not saying it.

I've always belonged to denominational churches, where the church hierarchy would step in in cases like this and settle this dispute. Who owns this church? Someone or some group must have ownership.

I found a name, but one site says owner,another says religious leader,and yet another says principal. At any rate his name is the only contact name I have found listed for the church.
Probably best not to put it here as I'm not sure if he is the true owner or a name used by a corporation (several owners) hiding their identity.
IMO

 

[kimlynn]

There is a little bit more information in this podcast from some of the members of the church.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/church...enora-biggs-grandson-robert-dye-special-guest

Skip the the 45 min. mark and a lady gives a few more details. There were other members that were also told they were voted out of the church and received letters.

Whew that was long winded but informative. If true sounds as though the pastor had a lot of interest in money. I hope Ms Biggs health holds out because the bloggers/radio hosts plan on going to church with her on Sunday. Might be more than she can handle at her age.
IMO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Whew that was long winded but informative. If true sounds as though the pastor had a lot of interest in money. I hope Ms Biggs health holds out because the bloggers/radio hosts plan on going to church with her on Sunday. Might be more than she can handle at her age.
IMO

Yes, it was very long! From some of the info I got from those that spoke on the podcast, it seems this pastor is wanting to expand the membership of the church, which of course would generate more money coming in. The pastor or reverend is described as controlling and self centered IMO.

What I want to know, is what is wrong with having a small church, with a small congregation and a simple sermon on Sunday? Can't a pastor of a small church, earn a small income for a Sunday sermon and work other jobs? When it becomes all about the money, then it takes so much away from the real purpose of fellowship and worship in a small community.

I'm not a fan at all of these large churches that pressure people into giving more and more of their money so these "pastors" can have mega million dollar homes and private jets. These church leaders are living like CEO's that don't have to pay taxes. I have to wonder what their real motives are.

 

[La Louve]

Being progressive doesn't typically align with kicking people out. Generally more progressive believers tend to be MORE inclusive.

Now--I do know churches that have struggled with the inclusion of people with various mental disorders whose behaviors ran the gamut from open disruption of services to simply being oppositional and tending to suck all the attention to themselves in any and all circumstances--resulting in major morale problems and paralysis of action. So, I don't want to overlook the possibility that this is simply a mishandling of a genuinely difficult circumstance.

But--I have to go back to the red flags of this being a Baptist congregation and the woman's description of the pastor as being a holy roller. While many of us are accustomed to church structures in which there is a larger church available to assist in working through pastor/congregational difficulties--and in fact there are such structures available within the Baptist fold broadly defined--there are also growing numbers of Baptists who reject any notion of accountability to a larger church body and define themselves as Independent Baptist. Among core beliefs (if any group defined primarily by Independence can truly be defined as having core beliefs) is the Pastor as God's direct emissary having the final word, accountable to no man (and certainly no woman). As this movement grows (and numbers are hard to come up with, given their lack of affiliation) the tendency is for a flock to coalesce around a minister--with the only available resolution for conflict is for congregants to leave--frequently splintering off into a home-based worship situation.

Personally I see this as being not particularly good for the Body of Christ (looking at it as a Christian), but it is also something that societally we should have some concerns about as there are minimal mechanisms to guard against abuse of the weak and helpless (children and the elderly--among others). Certainly physical abuse is a baseline concern--but so is emotional and financial abuse.

excellent post!

I think there is a case for elder abuse here. It certainly seems like emotional abuse to me. I can't imagine treating a 103 year old woman of faith this way, but then the last gasps of a dying patriarchy are getting more dramatic every day. I hope the Adult Protective Services/Aging Services Division is investigating.

http://aging.dhs.georgia.gov/adult-protective-services

 

[La Louve]

I found a name, but one site says owner,another says religious leader,and yet another says principal. At any rate his name is the only contact name I have found listed for the church.
Probably best not to put it here as I'm not sure if he is the true owner or a name used by a corporation (several owners) hiding their identity.
IMO

I would search for IRS records regarding tax-exempt status for identity of the owner(s). Someone owns the building and the furnishings etc.

 

[kimlynn]

I would search for IRS records regarding tax-exempt status for identity of the owner(s). Someone owns the building and the furnishings etc.

Going by memory I searched Manta,Buzzfile,and Chamber of Commerce. I also searched the Secretary of State in Georgia.
No data came up at the S.O.S. for corporation listings by the name of the church or the contact name listed.

I could post the contact name listed for the church but not sure if the mods would be okay with that.
It was an easy find.
Also couldn't find a website or fb for the church. Could be that it is a small congregation and they just didn't bother with the extras.
IMO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Going by memory I searched Manta,Buzzfile,and Chamber of Commerce. I also searched the Secretary of State in Georgia.
No data came up at the S.O.S. for corporation listings by the name of the church or the contact name listed.

I could post the contact name listed for the church but not sure if the mods would be okay with that.
It was an easy find.
Also couldn't find a website or fb for the church. Could be that it is a small congregation and they just didn't bother with the extras.
IMO

I found a fb page, but it wasn't "official". There wasn't anything on there to gain any information from.

 

[kimlynn]

Yes, it was very long! From some of the info I got from those that spoke on the podcast, it seems this pastor is wanting to expand the membership of the church, which of course would generate more money coming in. The pastor or reverend is described as controlling and self centered IMO.

What I want to know, is what is wrong with having a small church, with a small congregation and a simple sermon on Sunday? Can't a pastor of a small church, earn a small income for a Sunday sermon and work other jobs? When it becomes all about the money, then it takes so much away from the real purpose of fellowship and worship in a small community.

I'm not a fan at all of these large churches that pressure people into giving more and more of their money so these "pastors" can have mega million dollar homes and private jets. These church leaders are living like CEO's that don't have to pay taxes. I have to wonder what their real motives are.

One former member ( from your link to the radio bloggers) said she thought that he was taking in two hundred per each Sunday sermon and gave himself a raise of two hundred more per each Sunday sermon.
Then she made mention of a small rental property that they had for a low income family. The rent was two hundred plus and he took control of the property and raised the rent. Awful...IMO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

One former member ( from your link to the radio bloggers) said she thought that he was taking in two hundred per each Sunday sermon and gave himself a raise of two hundred more per each Sunday sermon.
Then she made mention of a small rental property that they had for a low income family. The rent was two hundred plus and he took control of the property and raised the rent. Awful...IMO

Yes, she said she was vague on her knowledge on that situation but obviously, it was just one more thing that caused a division in the congregation. It's all rather sad when you think about it. A church should be a place of peace and "something" obviously happened to disrupt that peace. It sounds like it was someone that walked in and then unexpectedly made change. Some people kissed his a$$ and others, like this very educated and knowledgeable woman with age and experience spoke up.