GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

[Orange Tabby]

Did we ever find out if the verdicts were all unanimous?

Doesn't the judge have to give them permission before they can come forward with a less than unanimous verdict? I have no idea if the press would be allowed to announce (before the verdict) that a majority verdict would be accepted. But I'm confident that after only three hours of deliberation the judge did not tell the jury: "Oh, all right then. Let's get this thing sorted, and fast. I'm now ready to accept majority verdicts on any count in the indictment."

I may need to be schooled on this issue, but I understand that the possibility of a majority verdict is only considered after a serious amount of deliberation has already taken place.

So I agree with your conclusion, below: these were all unanimous verdicts.

I just have visions of them walking into the jury room and being asked "who thinks they're guilty?". All hands go up. Doesn't sound like there was any room for doubt at all!

 

[ColourPurple]

"One of the issues in this case is nobody actually knows precisely what happened inside Crown Hill,"
...
"Mr Courtiour said the lack of evidence in the bathroom of Cotton Mill Lane did lead police to ask whether Becky's dismemberment took place elsewhere."
...
"Mr Courtiour added that he was not able to say whether Hoare was in the room when Becky was killed."

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Saw-re...tory-28162563-detail/story.html#ixzz3rH5ZMFTX

While in his Barton Hill home, the police discovered the receipt for the saw in a draw upstairs.


"The finding of the receipt for the circular saw, the gloves and the goggles; that was the moment at which those people who had that information and realised it was bought the day after Becky went missing felt that it was only for one purpose and that we were then going to be dealing with something pretty horrific," Mr Courtiour added.

www.bristolpost.co.uk/Saw-receipt-d...tory-28162563-detail/story.html#ixzz3rHAB4Uzk

I can't believe he kept the receipt!!!

Can't decide if that was through stupidity or arrogance.

 

[Tortoise]

They were wrong about the 21 days, it was around 12/13 but good question, it makes me wonder if they were still wrapping it right till the night it was moved. He said he planned to drive out to the sea to dispose of the body parts but didnt; get chance. He'd booked 3 weeks of work so maybe he was going to do it then, pretend to go on holiday and dispose of the parts on the way?

What we've questioned before is why even take the body home at all? It was in his boot, he usually worked evenings out and about delivering take aways, he could have left it in the boot then in the wooded area he'd talked about, Becky wasn't reported missing for 24 hours so he could have gone to work as normal that first nigth and left her somewhere she would be found. That he didn't do that makes me think it was always planned to take her to their house, and dead or alive he carried on with the plan.

always a chance then that they would link it to him, find DNA in his boot, see injuries on him without his make up, having been at the house that morning. Especially if she would be found within a day or two. I think the aim was to make it look like she disappeared into thin air, of her own accord, not murdered.

 

[Clio]

www.bristolpost.co.uk/Saw-receipt-d...tory-28162563-detail/story.html#ixzz3rHAB4Uzk

I can't believe he kept the receipt!!!

Can't decide if that was through stupidity or arrogance.

Who knows. Probably the same reason he didn't get rid of the stun guns and the boot liner.

 

[Wallace]

The obvious choice would have been to dump the body as soon as possible. NM and SH had days to do that and plenty of ideal places (nearby rivers etc).Yet they chose to keep her body close at hand and then gruesomely dismember it. I believe that was a very large part of the sick 'thrill' that they got out of killing her.

Their downfall was that they both believed that they were smarter than the Police. I still find it hard to believe that this was their first crime. That sort of confidence is usually built up after 'getting away with it' multiple times. I also find it hard to believe that there was zero forensic evidence of the dismemberment in the house. People make mistakes the first time they do something. Was this beginners luck?

 

[MissyLDT]

It is bizarre though. Her son killed his daughter and now he is stating he wants her son dead. That is not a normal situation.

I find it odd how AG was smiling away at NM in court but can sit there listening to him talk about the death penalty about her son.
Seriously odd family dynamics going here and were going on before BW was murdered.

It was more the negative undertone in the articles heading I was referring too. It's not their relationship that should be on trial and whether they are 'STILL' living in the house as the daily mail put it. Darren has openly said he hated Anjie to start off with which is a reaction I think most would have including myself.

They've already lost a daughter, a son, a daughter in law and potentially access to a grandchild or 3 in the most terrible way. I've no idea what I would do under those circumstances but I do think I'd be trying to cling on to what I had left.

Will check out the BBC documentary in a bit - thanks!

 

[ColourPurple]

Who knows. Probably the same reason he didn't get rid of the stun guns and the boot liner.

I don't think the bootliner was left deliberately. I wonder which one of them put it in the back of the cooker and forgot about it when they cleared up everything else connected to the crime. I bet the other person was fuming.

 

[Yozzer]

Colour Purple:
Re: I can't believe he kept the receipt!!!

Probably hoping to return it as 'unused' and get his money back.

 

[Tortoise]

The obvious choice would have been to dump the body as soon as possible. NM and SH had days to do that and plenty of ideal places (nearby rivers etc).Yet they chose to keep her body close at hand and then gruesomely dismember it. I believe that was a very large part of the sick 'thrill' that they got out of killing her.

Their downfall was that they both believed that they were smarter than the Police. I still find it hard to believe that this was their first crime. That sort of confidence is usually built up after 'getting away with it' multiple times. I also find it hard to believe that there was zero forensic evidence of the dismemberment in the house. People make mistakes the first time they do something. Was this beginners luck?

yes, we have NM asking if they have DNA at his house, and them saying yes they had blood (but it was his blood so no link to Becky there and the hairs on the bootliner wouldn't have been analysed that quick) so he was sure they wouldn't find DNA.

and we have SH saying you won't find my DNA. obviously her house would be full of her own DNA, but nothing linking her DNA with Becky's.

 

[ColourPurple]

The obvious choice would have been to dump the body as soon as possible. NM and SH had days to do that and plenty of ideal places (nearby rivers etc).Yet they chose to keep her body close at hand and then gruesomely dismember it. I believe that was a very large part of the sick 'thrill' that they got out of killing her.

Their downfall was that they both believed that they were smarter than the Police. I still find it hard to believe that this was their first crime. That sort of confidence is usually built up after 'getting away with it' multiple times. I also find it hard to believe that there was zero forensic evidence of the dismemberment in the house. People make mistakes the first time they do something. Was this beginners luck?

With comparisons made between them and the Wests , I hope police are looking into whether they were involved in other crimes. NM apparently graphically described how he'd hit somebody with a sledgehammer , are there any unsolved murders or assaults in his area that would fit in with that ?

Here's one of the comparisons with the Wests. He says they may have gone on to kill others if they got away with killing Becky, but how does he know that they hadn't gone on to kill Becky after getting away with killing others? Maybe they just chose people who wouldn't be missed or connected to them before.They had links to escort sites saved on their favourites lists on their phones

Professor Stuart Kirby believes Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare could have killed again if they had got away with their crime

The couple who killed Becky Watts exhibited similar traits to notorious serial killers Fred and Rose West, a top criminologist warned last night.


Professor Stuart Kirby said couples who kill are extremely rare.


But he believes sex fantasists Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare could have killed again if they had got away with their crime.

Prof Kirby, professor of policing and criminal investigation at the University of Central Lancashire, said: “Often like-minded people will act together in sexual fantasy because they can talk about the planning and the fantasy.

“The fact that they are a couple makes them less susceptible to suspicion and they can cover for each other.


“Sometimes they will attack a stranger off the street but it is more common to target a victim who is known to them.

How could somebody have any self-esteem if they go out and commit murder? One answer is that they choose someone they know and don’t particularly like for a certain reason.

“It brings the killers together in a very strong bond - it is the strongest of conspiracies because any breach of trust will send their partner to jail for life.

“This case is similar to Fred and Rose West because it’s a strong relationship between the two of them - as with moors murderers Myra Hindley and Ian Brady - and each one covers for the other until there were so many clues police began digging into their background.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-killers-nathan-matthews-6813264

 

[Alyce]

Another thing that made me ponder if there was another cirme scene was that NM asked if they had found any evidence at his home and it was when they said yes that he confessed. Made me think was there another site and he figured OK if they've got evidence at my house I'll confess now and then they'll never find out about the other place...

I would love to have seen NMs face, when the police officer then told him that the blood found was his !

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Link to the BBC documentary about Becky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MtD5EjmKC0&feature=youtu.be

The way the packaging was wrapped up, the salt crystals in it so there was no smell coming from Becky's body parts, the cat litter that was used, so somebody who comes over as rather a pathetic figure, actually seems to be a very devious and manipulative individual who has pre-planned the kidnapping and murder of his step-sister. Rachael Scott CPS


This struck me as interesting because it reveals NM had thought about dismemberment before killing Becky, it was part of the plan. He just didn't realize it wasn't that simple nor had the skills of a surgeon or butcher, who can cut between joints with a knife. This is why he bought the circular saw, and it seemed at first, like he hadn't planned the murder.
In quite a few dismemberment cases, only knives were used, 2 of those which spring to mind, abattoir worker, Katherine Knight and chef, Marcus Volke.

 

[ColourPurple]

The way the packaging was wrapped up, the salt crystals in it so there was no smell coming from Becky's body parts, the cat litter that was used, so somebody who comes over as rather a pathetic figure, actually seems to be a very devious and manipulative individual who has pre-planned the kidnapping and murder of his step-sister. Rachael Scott CPS


This struck me as interesting because it reveals NM had thought about dismemberment before killing Becky, it was part of the plan. He just didn't realize it wasn't that simple nor had the skills of a surgeon or butcher, who can cut between joints with a knife. This is why he bought the circular saw, and it seemed at first, like he hadn't planned the murder.
In quite a few dismemberment cases, only knives were used, 2 of those which spring to mind, abattoir worker, Katherine Knight and chef, Marcus Volke.

Mark Bridger was a former abbatoir worker too. But yes they could have planned to use a knife ( I think there were cut marks from a knife found too werent there?)
found it was harder than anticpated and had to buy the saw. We never did find out if the shopping they bought included salt and cat litter.

 

[Wallace]

www.bristolpost.co.uk/Saw-receipt-d...tory-28162563-detail/story.html#ixzz3rHAB4Uzk

I can't believe he kept the receipt!!!

Can't decide if that was through stupidity or arrogance.

The store in question will take just about anything back if you have the receipt. I expect his original plan was to use it, clean it up and return it for a refund. It would be against the nature of a hoarder to throw something away and money wasn't exactly flowing in the door.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm wondering if the police used deliberate tricks to catch them or if the police made genuine errors in what they said to NM and SH.

They told NM that blood had been found upstairs in his house, but it was in fact at Crown Hill that they found Becky's blood.
They told SH that the body was found in her house.

Was it to gauge their reactions? I would think it might be but then again it also sounds like it could be genuine errors in information passed down from investigators to those doing the interviews.

The interviews with SH seemed really tame, and it seems they may not have even suspected her of being complicit in the events at Crown Hill until May/June when the texts were found.

 

[sar2them1984]

The store in question will take just about anything back if you have the receipt. I expect his original plan was to use it, clean it up and return it for a refund. It would be against the nature of a hoarder to throw something away and money wasn't exactly flowing in the door.

Haha good point...Yes that store will take ANYTHING back in virtually ANY condition as long as you have the receipt

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[BoraBora]

I think by that stage, the Monday, they had only just got everything packaged and then were forced to flee because the police were on their tails. NM was paranoid about using his own car because they had said they were staying overnight at SH's mum's and if the police were watching their house they would immediately recognise he was there if his car was there.

I had a theory that they couldn't use JI's car also because NM thought he may be seen in the car on their way to move the cases. And that was why he wanted a van, so he could hide in the back. The police would not be looking for JI/KD or stop and search them.

So, I'd say if the police hadn't turned up on 23rd/24th NM would have disposed of the body by himself, and not moved them to the shed.

Thanks - yes that all makes total sense - esp using a van and not a car.

 

[Tortoise]

The store in question will take just about anything back if you have the receipt. I expect his original plan was to use it, clean it up and return it for a refund. It would be against the nature of a hoarder to throw something away and money wasn't exactly flowing in the door.

that has turned my stomach. but I think you're right. he never was happy paying the price they marked it up as.

 

[Wallace]

I'm wondering if the police used deliberate tricks to catch them or if the police made genuine errors in what they said to NM and SH.

They told NM that blood had been found upstairs in his house, but it was in fact at Crown Hill that they found Becky's blood.
They told SH that the body was found in her house.

Was it to gauge their reactions? I would think it might be but then again it also sounds like it could be genuine errors in information passed down from investigators to those doing the interviews.

The interviews with SH seemed really tame, and it seems they may not have even suspected her of being complicit in the events at Crown Hill until May/June when the texts were found.

I think you have to bear in mind that she was pregnant and had already made a mysterious trip to the hospital during questioning. They were walking a delicate line and pushing as hard as was deemed appropriate.

 

[BoraBora]

Hi Bora Bora and :welcome6:

Again, I am having a gggrrr at the reporting. It was not 21 days, it was 11 days later when Becky's body parts were found at Barton Court.
Re why didnt NM put Becky's body elsewhere. Something we have debated on here quite a lot. If he was going to do that, he should have done it immediately.
Once he took the body home, he really didnt have the opportunity, as Becky's disappearance became headline news very quickly and any actions he took after this time could have been checked ( later ) and put him in the frame quite quickly.

However, apart from that, I think he took Becky home for his own, perverted, reasons.

Hi Alyce and thanks for the welcome. I've wanted to post for ages on here but the threads were going so fast I couldn't keep up. And I agree, he should have done it immediately. As you say, be probably wanted to bring her home. Poor girl.