AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce (Wynarka) and mum Karlie Pearce-Stevenson (Belanglo) #9

[Panda]

Patience Panda, all will be revealed eventually.

Thanks KG1. It is frustrating though. The problem is trying to think like a killer just doesn't work if you're not a killer I guess. It's difficult to presume how someone would think. I'm trying to think of an analogy but can't.

 

[symbah]

IF you have never murdered someone before, and you are not a "Milat" and take sick pleasure in it, I imagine once it struck you what you have done, it would be a very sobering experience, and you may not be in the frame of mind to kill again, especially an innocent tiny babe like Khandalyce. She may well not have been with them/him either, and he would then have needed to work out what to do with her over those intervening days

SA Police Detective Superintendent Des Bray said police were still wary that more murders may have been committed. - See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...mum-murder--reports.html#sthash.ny3o1UJb.dpuf

These murders may not of been his first ... of course, reading what Des Bray has said here ... more murders may of been committed ... could be either before or after or even before & after Karlie & Khandalyce.

 

[Warshawski]

Thanks KG1 for your response to my rant, and it all makes total sense. Particularly so if the suitcase had been carefully placed there with no disruption to the layers of clothing etc, and then remained in that position for how many years of disintegration until that first person found it, opened it in its pristine state, saw a pile of clothes, was disinterested so just left and ignored it.

Do I recall police saying that the suitcase with body was dumped here within a week or 2, Max, of the murder. If so, that was a whole body in there (shudder to think perhaps not 'whole' in the true sense), but that IMO would make the careful layering quite difficult.

So who was the first person to find it? What else was in there? Was it an arranged pickup and evidence supplied of job well done perhaps. Police have always suggested 'something' was removed from that suitcase. I am pretty sure their analytics have indicated absolutely what has been in that suitcase at some stage.

All IMO - this is such an abhorrent crime, my mind cannot begin to go to the depths and lengths required to join and solve all the tangents of debauchery.

I so applaud and commiserate with the amazing police and forensics team in the job they do under what must be extreme duress.

 

[sosocurious]

Cool. Thanks Soso. I was on my phone and it just froze for me, but glad it works.

So presumably person 1 who saw the suitcase partially suspended in the bushes and bought it closer to the road and stood it on its end didn't actually open it.
To know this detail I think the police must have a statement from person 1.

Yes, SA it does seem as though the person that stopped for a toilet break has talked to police.
So the suitcase was found partially suspended by this person. That person pulled it to the side of the road and stood it on its end.

This is were I get confused.

Did someone come along after and pull it back behind the bushes and empty the contents and then pull the suitcase back to the side of the road?
Or had the contents of the suitcase already been emptied behind the bushes the suitcase resealed and chucked into to the bush .. partially suspended.



https://www.police.sa.gov.au/police-news/police-live

 

[bearbear]

i cant look at that photo of dh in msm reports, the look on his face with those children, he looks so evil and creepy
what happened to little khandalyce in those days before her death without her mother, police say their deaths were very violent but different, extreme violence usually comes from anger or hatred, frustration or maybe shame

 

[JaneSA]

Yes, SA it does seem as though the person that stopped for a toilet break has talked to police.
So the suitcase was found partially suspended by this person. That person pulled it to the side of the road and stood it on its end.

This is were I get confused.

Did someone come along after and pull it back behind the bushes and empty the contents and then pull the suitcase back to the side of the road?
Or had the contents of the suitcase already been emptied behind the bushes the suitcase resealed and chucked into to the bush .. partially suspended.
https://www.police.sa.gov.au/police-news/police-live

Truly, I have no idea, but I am relieved that someone else has read the same words I have read and is just as confused as I am

 

[Wozzie]

Argh... I have so many questions now about things i thought we DID already know.

Regarding the suitcase being dumped soon after Khandles murder, surely this is a red herring? Are police just trying to throw false info out there to get someone to tell them how it REALLY went down? Back in the Wynarka threads, I'm sure i remember someone did an experiment with a similar small sized suitcase and said they could barely fit 50 small items in there let alone a child as well. So given the suitcase dimensions, how would he even have made her fit with all those clothes?
Where is all the dash cam footage prior to march/April this year??? Surely if the case was there all this time there would be earlier footage???

Is anyone else wondering where HP/DH's then 2yo child was during this period??? Why would he have been travelling with Khandles and not his own? Was she there too?

Has something been said about WHEN the sister came into possession of the 2 suitcases? I have seen a few posts saying that he dropped off the cases to her house after Karlies murder but it seems to make sense to me that he would have them in his possession until he had to find a spot to store all of his things when he went on his most recent indoor holiday. Surely his sister didnt just store it all for him from 2008.

Such messy disorganised crimes they seem to be.

 

[Warshawski]

OMG, Estelle, with thanks for sure for your input, however, it just all makes me feel so sick .... I no longer can align my values with our society ..

 

[Panda]

Argh... I have so many questions now about things i thought we DID already know.

Regarding the suitcase being dumped soon after Khandles murder, surely this is a red herring? Are police just trying to throw false info out there to get someone to tell them how it REALLY went down? Back in the Wynarka threads, I'm sure i remember someone did an experiment with a similar small sized suitcase and said they could barely fit 50 small items in there let alone a child as well. So given the suitcase dimensions, how would he even have made her fit with all those clothes?
Where is all the dash cam footage prior to march/April this year??? Surely if the case was there all this time there would be earlier footage???

Is anyone else wondering where HP/DH's then 2yo child was during this period??? Why would he have been travelling with Khandles and not his own? Was she there too?

Has something been said about WHEN the sister came into possession of the 2 suitcases? I have seen a few posts saying that he dropped off the cases to her house after Karlies murder but it seems to make sense to me that he would have them in his possession until he had to find a spot to store all of his things when he went on his most recent indoor holiday. Surely his sister didnt just store it all for him from 2008.

Such messy disorganised crimes they seem to be.

I personally don't think it was a red herring - only because at the very beginning the police didn't have a clue who was in the suitcase, I think they genuinely believed the suitcase had been recently dumped, which was further clouded by the sighting of "suitcase" man at the time. I don't think at that stage they had enough information to warrant a red herring scenario. I think there there could be more dash cam footage, unless the suitcase had only recently been unearthed/moved from deeper in the scrub. At the time, because the police believed it was only recently dumped, they didn't pursue footage from earlier, because they didn't think it was necessary. What I would like to know, is how they are now so sure why it was there for all those years. Something has obviously recently come to light to make them change their minds.

I don't know about the experiment - but my personal opinion has always been that it would be quite easy to squash a small dead child in a suitcase of that size - even with the clothes. It's surprising how much you can cram into those suitcases, so I've never had any doubts in that respect. I was always of the opinion that she was killed and placed in the suitcase from the get go, which would have explained why the bones were all accounted for and so clean - and would also account for the deterioration of the quilt and other items of clothing in the suitcase.

As to why he wouldn't have been travelling with his own children - who knows. Could be any myriad of reasons. Do we know who the mother of his children even are? If they were children with someone else, he may have only had custody of them every other weekend. I have no idea.

I find it quite reasonably that his possessions, or at least some of them, would have been stored at his sisters - especially given he moved around a lot. We store some of my brother's belongings at our house, along with our kids various belongings at various times, if they're on the move. So I don't find that out of the ordinary. What I would like to know, is how much the sister knew about Holdom's activities, and the extent of her knowledge regarding Karlie and Khandalyce.

 

[Panda]

Yes, SA it does seem as though the person that stopped for a toilet break has talked to police.
So the suitcase was found partially suspended by this person. That person pulled it to the side of the road and stood it on its end.

This is were I get confused.

Did someone come along after and pull it back behind the bushes and empty the contents and then pull the suitcase back to the side of the road?
Or had the contents of the suitcase already been emptied behind the bushes the suitcase resealed and chucked into to the bush .. partially suspended.



https://www.police.sa.gov.au/police-news/police-live

I think this has gotten all of us. What gets me is how so many people could have come across the suitcase and taken so long to report it. Once again, it's very difficult to reconcile one's thoughts with others at times. You expect a certain standard from humanity, which apparently is vastly removed from what I believe a regular person would think or do.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I personally don't think it was a red herring - only because at the very beginning the police didn't have a clue who was in the suitcase, I think they genuinely believed the suitcase had been recently dumped, which was further clouded by the sighting of "suitcase" man at the time. I don't think at that stage they had enough information to warrant a red herring scenario. I think there there could be more dash cam footage, unless the suitcase had only recently been unearthed/moved from deeper in the scrub. At the time, because the police believed it was only recently dumped, they didn't pursue footage from earlier, because they didn't think it was necessary. What I would like to know, is how they are now so sure why it was there for all those years. Something has obviously recently come to light to make them change their minds.

I don't know about the experiment - but my personal opinion has always been that it would be quite easy to squash a small dead child in a suitcase of that size - even with the clothes. It's surprising how much you can cram into those suitcases, so I've never had any doubts in that respect. I was always of the opinion that she was killed and placed in the suitcase from the get go, which would have explained why the bones were all accounted for and so clean - and would also account for the deterioration of the quilt and other items of clothing in the suitcase.

As to why he wouldn't have been travelling with his own children - who knows. Could be any myriad of reasons. Do we know who the mother of his children even are? If they were children with someone else, he may have only had custody of them every other weekend. I have no idea.

I find it quite reasonably that his possessions, or at least some of them, would have been stored at his sisters - especially given he moved around a lot. We store some of my brother's belongings at our house, along with our kids various belongings at various times, if they're on the move. So I don't find that out of the ordinary. What I would like to know, is how much the sister knew about Holdom's activities, and the extent of her knowledge regarding Karlie and Khandalyce.

Did DJH/M in his defective brain take a photo of the suitcase with time stamp from 2008/09 on one of his many phones ...?

 

[Panda]

Did DJH/M in his defective brain take a photo of the suitcase with time stamp from 2008/09 on one of his many phones ...?

What do you mean FromGermany ... do you mean after he dumped it, or something like that to tie in a timeframe? Are you thinking as a "keepsake" or generally? It's a possibility - I can't even begin to fathom his thought processes, but, yeah, anything like that would be on the cards I would imagine.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What do you mean FromGermany ... do you mean after he dumped it, or something like that to tie in a timeframe? Are you thinking as a "keepsake" or generally? It's a possibility - I can't even begin to fathom his thought processes, but, yeah, anything like that would be on the cards I would imagine.

I often can't post and/or edit, sorry. My buttons are untraceable often. I mean, a photo taken on the day/night he disposed the suitcase at Wynarka. And maybe police found that pic and therefore know the date in 2008?
IF they were two mates -only IF - then maybe he is seen on the photo as well, not only the suitcase? Far fetched, but perhaps possible. :dunno:

 

[reasypeasy]

IMO if the bones were sitting in a suitcase from the time KP met her death, in Dec 2008 - until just shortly before when they were found this year,
(and perhaps emptied out of the case) wouldn't the suitcase serve as kind of a coffin?
insulating the bones from the elements,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2009_southeastern_Australia_heat_wave

A suitcase would offer little protection from those temperatures.

 

[plongi]

Sorry Estelle but the Cotter isnt on the way for any of this.
And if you did have a body at the Cotter the Brindabella Mountains / Murrumbidgee river are on your doorstep .. as a disposal site. There are caravan parks on the way into Canberra from the North ...Belanglo direction and they are near to the start of the Barton Highway which goes out to Charnwood / Wallaroo. For this theory much closer and on the way through. Eaglehawk holiday park is one such place.

Cotter Park is the nearest caravan park or camping ground to Wallaroo NSW and it is on the outskirts of Canberra.

On the outskirts of Canberra, this is a very popular campground with hot showers, alongside the Cotter River.

The campground is very large, with separated areas for different types of camping (caravans, tents etc)

http://www.findacamp.com.au/camp-site.php?pc=WALLAROO_NSW_2618&dis=25&camp=367

My current thoughts are that DH, Karlie and Khandalyce stayed in a place like this the whole time that they were in the Canberra area

*as it is cheap,
*they are alone,
*they had an argument over money and/or her car
*and/or KP threatened to tell HP that they had had an affair
*and/or KP found out some secrets about DH which she did not approve of,
*HP is calling DH to pressure him to be back in Adelaide for Christmas as she is coming out of rehab. hence the pings on his phone perhaps? Who else would be phoning him on 14/15 Dec and 19/20 Dec?
*DH could have threatened KP with some sort of weapon eg knife (if she did not tell him her pin nos, passwords, etc.)

So after she told him, he had no further use of KP so he either suffocated or strangled her as it had to be a quiet murder if they were in a caravan park.

Hopefully Khandalyce was asleep. So in the middle of the night, he takes KP's body to Belanglo National Park and dumps it there to confuse police. Khandalyce is either put in the car seat of Karlie's car (or he leaves her there asleep in the caravan?). He dumps the body and returns quickly. Next day, he withdraws money from her bank account with Khandalyce in tow who is not very happy as she does not know where her mother is and she gradually puts on more and more tantrums so he finds it difficult to manage her. He decides to ask his sister to mind two bags while he is away.

On the last night, he suffocates or strangles Khandalyce and puts her body in the suitcase then in the car boot. The manager (or others there) of the caravan park when DH is leaving notices that Karlie and Khandalyce are missing but does not think anything of it as DH tells him a story until the police ask him about DH years later (or he phones CrimeStoppers). DH drives to Wynarka on the back roads avoiding police and dumps the suitcase.

The reason I say this is I just cannot see how DH could get KP willingly to drive to Belanglo National Park unless she was forced to under threat and to have a live child there with them too. I guess he could have told her that it would be nice to have a picnic there!

However, we have only been told that Khandalyce died in Wallaroo due possibly to his mobile pinging there for about 24 hours. It also gets complicated if they were staying with friends and Karlie disappears leaving DH with Khandalyce. If they stayed with his sister, has she been privy to covering up or did he tell her some credible stories about Karlie's absence?

You are now free to pick holes in my theory.

 

[JaneSA]

This case is so frustrating, even more-so now that we don't know when the suitcase was dumped.
In the past I was absolutely certain the police had said Khandalyce's body decomposed outside the suitcase and was placed into it later and then dumped in early 2015.
Now I am not sure what they are saying or what to believe.
But, whenever the suitcase was dumped and whenever Khandalyce's body was put inside it, two questions remain to jangle about in my brain:
1. why leave body and identifiable items together?
2. why leave it there?

The assumption is that he wanted a great distance between his 2 victims so that they wouldn't be linked easily. That shows some sort of logic above the level of cretin.
So, if he has a plan to put distance between the crimes, why dump the case on the roadside so close to a town and why with her clothes?
He knows the area and therefore knows he is only minutes away from the Murray. Drop the case off a bridge there and it will sink without a trace.
Again, I can't reconcile the stupid with the clever.

 

[plongi]

Post Karlie death:
The card is used in Charnwood which may indicate a visit to the sister 16th.
Visits Deakin the day of Khandalyce death 19th then soon after commences long trip. A pickup of some type? Money Drugs or Khandalyce all of the above.
They have times of 2:17 am till 12:52 am next day where he is still in Canberra / NSW Wallaroo area.
2:17 must have Khandalyce sighted CCT due the exact time.
12:52 must be DH sighted as she is gone. Arrives Adelaide no Khandalyce.
Phone pings can only be used to locate Khandalyce if a murder location was found. But she is found on the highway.

Being in the dotty dress leans toward a woman dressing her.. I am a bloke and would dress my daughter like that if she wanted but I am not DH.
At least someone who cares for her and is enjoying her company.

I dont think it was said DH took her to Wyanrka directly but only he is responsible for her being left there.
Wallaroo has some good old bits for stashing stuff.

 

[sosocurious]

Post Karlie death:
The card is used in Charnwood which may indicate a visit to the sister 16th.
Visits Deakin the day of Khandalyce death 19th then soon after commences long trip. A pickup of some type? Money Drugs or Khandalyce all of the above.
They have times of 2:17 am till 12:52 am next day where he is still in Canberra / NSW Wallaroo area.
2:17 must have Khandalyce sighted CCT due the exact time.
12:52 must be DH sighted as she is gone. Arrives Adelaide no Khandalyce.
Phone pings can only be used to locate Khandalyce if a murder location was found. But she is found on the highway.

Being in the dotty dress leans toward a woman dressing her.. I am a bloke and would dress my daughter like that if she wanted but I am not DH.
At least someone who cares for her and is enjoying her company.

I dont think it was said DH took her to Wyanrka directly but only he is responsible for her being left there.
Wallaroo has some good old bits for stashing stuff.

BBM

I agree plongi

Have the police said Khandalyce was taken directly to Wynarka and dumped in the suitcase in late 2008 early 2009?

Head of Homicide, Supt Mick Willing confirmed Khandalyce was murdered in NSW and said: “It was within a number of days” that the two-year-old met a violent death, similar to her mother.
He said the body of Khandlayce was then transported to South Australia before being discovered five years later.
Supt Willing would not comment on the exact cause of death or whether there are further suspects linked to the case.
“All the details will come out in due course,” he said.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...e/news-story/f8111bb976fc1f271c40c6bab85e6b7d

Supt Bray said police believed Khandalyce had been transported to SA by DH.
He declined to say if the police believed DH had help.
DH is the only person charged with Khandalyces murder "at this stage" Bray said.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...s/news-story/5b34e297c3abf1add6903465f1230afe

21 October
This is about a killing of a, that beautiful little girl you know, everybody needs to actually who knows something actually needs to do something about it and I'm confident that even people within the criminal community will provide information about who committed such a horrible crime.

Police say it's too early to identify suspects, but they've ruled out family members

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2015/s4336180.htm?site=centralcoast

 

[Maggie_May]

Spot on Panda.

I personally don't think it was a red herring - only because at the very beginning the police didn't have a clue who was in the suitcase, I think they genuinely believed the suitcase had been recently dumped, which was further clouded by the sighting of "suitcase" man at the time. I don't think at that stage they had enough information to warrant a red herring scenario. I think there there could be more dash cam footage, unless the suitcase had only recently been unearthed/moved from deeper in the scrub. At the time, because the police believed it was only recently dumped, they didn't pursue footage from earlier, because they didn't think it was necessary. What I would like to know, is how they are now so sure why it was there for all those years. Something has obviously recently come to light to make them change their minds.

I don't know about the experiment - but my personal opinion has always been that it would be quite easy to squash a small dead child in a suitcase of that size - even with the clothes. It's surprising how much you can cram into those suitcases, so I've never had any doubts in that respect. I was always of the opinion that she was killed and placed in the suitcase from the get go, which would have explained why the bones were all accounted for and so clean - and would also account for the deterioration of the quilt and other items of clothing in the suitcase.

As to why he wouldn't have been travelling with his own children - who knows. Could be any myriad of reasons. Do we know who the mother of his children even are? If they were children with someone else, he may have only had custody of them every other weekend. I have no idea.

I find it quite reasonably that his possessions, or at least some of them, would have been stored at his sisters - especially given he moved around a lot. We store some of my brother's belongings at our house, along with our kids various belongings at various times, if they're on the move. So I don't find that out of the ordinary. What I would like to know, is how much the sister knew about Holdom's activities, and the extent of her knowledge regarding Karlie and Khandalyce.

 

[Panda]

This case is so frustrating, even more-so now that we don't know when the suitcase was dumped.
In the past I was absolutely certain the police had said Khandalyce's body decomposed outside the suitcase and was placed into it later and then dumped in early 2015.
Now I am not sure what they are saying or what to believe.
But, whenever the suitcase was dumped and whenever Khandalyce's body was put inside it, two questions remain to jangle about in my brain:
1. why leave body and identifiable items together?
2. why leave it there?

The assumption is that he wanted a great distance between his 2 victims so that they wouldn't be linked easily. That shows some sort of logic above the level of cretin.
So, if he has a plan to put distance between the crimes, why dump the case on the roadside so close to a town and why with her clothes?
He knows the area and therefore knows he is only minutes away from the Murray. Drop the case off a bridge there and it will sink without a trace.
Again, I can't reconcile the stupid with the clever.

I totally agree with you Jane. I too am having difficulty believing anything. Never mind the inconsistencies with the media ... the inconsistencies with the police are just as difficult to make sense of from the start of this case, when they thought Karlie was a German backpacker who stayed in the Margaret River region picking grapes!

I agree that he wanted distance between his two victims, but another thing that has me thinking is from all the distance between Belanglo and Wynarka (I'm once again presuming Khandalyce was present when Karlie was killed at Belanglo), why would you dump the suitcase with Khandaclye's remains at Wynarka? And dump it so carelessly, as you say, with all her clothes? It's not like it was brilliantly hidden (though having said that - now we know it was supposedly there since Khandalyce was murdered - providing we believe the police on this - and was only recently discovered) Wynarka isn't far from the various residences in SA, whereas it is much harder to make a connection with Belanglo. Why wouldn't he have dumped it somewhere non-descript between Belanglo and Wynarka - which has over 1,000 possibilities. Which makes me wonder if I wasn't on the right track in the first place, and Khandalyce wasn't with Karlie and Holdom when Karlie was murdered. It seems where the suitcase was dumped, is not what I would have thought an ideal place if you never wanted it to be discovered - it's near the road, near the train tracks, near the motor bike trail. I mean, seriously? I am now totally lost. But, dumped there in a hurry, yes, that makes perfect sense to me.