MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

[psyquestor]

Her reaction, if true, that she was screaming and hitting the refrig and tearing down snowflakes immediately after learning of Julia's death do not quite fit with the article, in my opinion. "Survivors report suffering an initial phase of shock and confusion." (from your article) Where was the shock, confusion? Why the overt anger at that moment? Rage at the assailant, I can understand. But to tear up something your daughter lovingly put up just doesn't make the same impression. It wasn't raging against the assailant, but seems to indicate anger at the daughter (for leaving her? For putting her in this position of "grieving mother"? Why?) Why ruin the daughter's possessions immediately after being told she was dead?

I will read more of the article you posted, but so far my interpretation of what it says is different than yours.

There are no rules in regards to grieving. Although the stages of grief are laid out in numerical order, I can assure you that they come in different order for different people. Some people may skip stages entirely or revisit stages they've already been through.

There is no "normal" and what may seem odd to someone who has not lost a child under traumatic circumstances, might make a great deal of sense to someone who shares that pain.

I don't see KT's behavior as being suspect initially; the later behavior however gives me pause; though again, this may be her "normal."

 

[psyquestor]

Surely they are not just talking about the first 1-5 minutes. I think more like hours perhaps days, the time that the survivor is in an immediate crisis. I have looked at several sources, but I have not find anywhere that anger would be an abnormal reaction to losing your child to murder. If there is any evidence that would support the thesis that anger would be abnormal, I would like to see it. So far the website that I cited seems to be the most appropiate reference about the immediate reaction of a person to the news that a loved one has been murdered.

It isn't abnormal. I've belonged to many loss groups and it is a very normal reaction. Perhaps it doesn't make sense to someone who hasn't lost a child under traumatic circumstances, but it makes a great deal of sense to most of us who have. (my child died by suicide; self murder; I was the one to find him). I was angry, confused, upset, screaming...MINUTES afterward.

Just because you think you would react a certain way, does not mean that you actually would. IMHOO fwiw.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

I have been thinking about the payback killing theory. You are close on this, LookingGlass though I'm not so sure about all parts of it and definitely would remove at least one motive. Could JT had an obsession with Julia? I don't think JT ever had control of or over Julia like perhaps he did with the others. The timing of so many events that occurred around the time of her death and since then are odd.

Lansing has 13 cold cases from 2010 t0 2013 that I know of, and I always wondered have we overlooked other areas. If JT is responsible for Chelsea's murder as well, did he stop killing because of what they knew died and the secret is safe? Or has he killed others as well? For me, that answer pulls to being yes each time I read an article with JT talking about man who interviewed with KT for a job. (I forget his full name). Now another murder has happened so when looking at murders over a time span is JT a serial killer?

Two other questions is why did LE goes to Ohio and more importantly what was the overseas connected they were looking into? For myself, two names comes to mind when looking overseas plus Julia was planning on going to Rome in July 2013. What was the connection to Ohio? Family?

In talking about this article, we see the following:

• One of the first family members on the scene was JT.
• He claims LE isn’t looking hard enough.
• “We don’t talk to them. We don’t like the way they are handling it.”
• Detectives and family members feel JT knows more than he is letting on.
• JT has refused to cooperate or tell LE his whereabouts near the time of the murder.

But then this gem stands out....

• Of the killer, JT tells the reporter, “Inside them somewhere, they have to have some feeling of remorse. Sooner or later it is gonna get to them, it’s gonna eat them enough that they are not gonna be able to handle it.”

We all know a man is involved and LE only has stated one POI but from JT's lips the single killer turns into they and them....so who are these killers?

Note this is pure Speculation: Just putting the pieces to the puzzle together to see if they fit.

1. It's been speculated JT may have been at the Halloween party where Chelsea went missing. It's been speculated MS asked him if he was at the party. (I'm assuming through his attorney) I haven't been able to verify this.
2. Trojan_1966 mentioned JT has a maroon pick up truck(I hope I'm remembering correctly), speculation- there was talk of foul play, where a girl was grabbed in the parking field area, in a red truck. Where another older guy from Monroe was mentioned But this guy looks just like JT. claims to have been reported to Monroe PD. (This is a theory, I do not know personally, I only know what's been speculated online).
3. Chelsea would have taken a ride with JT because the families know each other. Chelsea's sister Kassy and JN (twin) are BFF's.
4. Chelsea went went missing October 26th, 2014. Trojan_1966 said YPD put a GPS tracker on JT's vehicle in November 2014, for Julia's case (hope I'm remembering correctly). Or was it 2013. I thought it was November of 2014 because YPD made him a POI, but not public yet.
5. Speculating Monroe Sheriff went hard on the child *advertiser censored* charges in Monroe county because they know JT personally. He used to work for them in the Marine division for a few years part time, I believe. I think they got his number, so to speak. That's why the Turquist got out of DODGE.

I didn't know there were 13 cold cases in Lansing. Unbelievable.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

This is another BIG question I have, why did YPD put a GPS tracker on JT's vehicle. It was said for Julia's case, but, unfortunately Julia has already passed away. Was it to make sure JT didn't run. But run where? and with what money? Does JT have ties oversees? I find it interesting that the GPS tracker was put on less than a month after Chelsea went missing. Could Monroe Sheriff and YPD have been working together back and forth since November 2014?

Speculating LE in both places are trying to keep an eye on JT and trying to get him off the streets. I am not sure if they know more than we speculate, or just suspects when there is foul play he is around, but they cannot tie him to it yet. LE isn't going to show their complete hand. Legally, they cannot.

To answer the question about the possible Ohio connection, IDK, but it was said Julia went to a Ohio State Game, I'll assuming in Columbus, OH. one or two weekends before she was killed.

I mean, maybe it's all just a big misunderstanding and Julia was killed and JT just happens to be her step-father, who may have been around her at the time she was killed. And, JN (twin) , Julia's sister who is a BFF with Kassy from Monroe who's sister comes up missing and then is found death, and JT may have been at the party that night. I can see why LE is interested, if this one person is around when young girls he has some type of connection to get killed. And as it turns out he has a background in Law enforcement and all the evidence needed is always missing. But maybe this is all a misunderstanding. IDK

 

[Midge Montana]

Whew. I just started reading this case a few days ago, reading through all five threads from the beginning (and many linked articles), literally staying up around-the-clock one day/night to do so. I'm thankful to be caught up to date, though so very sad that there hasn't been any resolution, or Justice For Julia yet.
First, huge hugs to Trojan, Julia's grandfather, for continuing to read here and help provide information.
So many other thoughts...but more questions.
I am carefully optimistic about Grandma Rose's statement in the recent article linked above that the police are looking at several people and seem to be making some progress. I have no real opinion on the guilt or innocence of JT. I truly wish he would sit down and talk to police and give them what they want as far as a formal statement, though I am glad to see that LE seem to be investigating other people, and are perhaps open to other options. I must say that I somewhat understand the reasons given for him to NOT sit down and perhaps put himself at risk of being 'tripped up' after this many years. I can barely tell you what I had for lunch yesterday and if I were questioned and got it wrong and was able to be proved wrong, it could seem like I was lying. Still, I do believe that I would do any cooperating (especially in the beginning and over the years, so as not to have a foggy memory) to help find my child's killer, or at least remove myself from POI status. As the mother, I would DEMAND my spouse do the same, long ago.
I do have a few questions/thoughts that came to mind early on and throughout my reading...
1. Did the roomates move out immediately? I simply cannot fathom staying in that apartment when the killer hadn't been caught, or truthfully, even if the killer had been caught. I would be breaking a lease, whatever it took to get out of there. I just couldn't live there knowing what occurred in the next room.
2. Did they get a new roomate to live in Julia's room? I cannot imagine any new person feeling comfortable in there.
3. Am I correct in understanding that after THREE years LE still doesn't have a DNA profile on the semen found? I find this almost impossible to believe, unless one couldn't be established because for some reason. Please forgive me if I missed something regarding this. It has truly been a 'cram' session for me reading this case and I very well may have missed something pertaining to that.
4. Random thoughts regarding some things that have been brought up...
I haven't seen this theory mentioned so I will mention it though it really doesn't go toward solving anything. I think perhaps the missing pillowcase 'may' have been cut into strips to use as ligatures to bind her. There were obviously scissors or a knife or cutting tool used, as evidenced by her cut-off clothing. Also, that an older person seen in the building would have been noticed as suspicious may not be true. I have a friend who works for a Florida university as a state employee, who is in his late 40's and lives in an apartment complex that houses many students and in fact has or has had roomates who were students. They share kitchen and living rooms, but he often spends the majority of time in his private bedroom/bathroom suite. From what I recall reading, Julia's complex wasn't exclusively for students and some rooms may have been rented out to non-students of varying ages.
5. On page 19 of this thread, there was a link that had some reviews of the complex. One thing that stood out to me was the statement by a former resident. It stated as one complaint that maintenance personnel showed up at odd times (paraphrasing) to do work. This has always been in the back of my mind, that Julia may have perhaps let in someone in a maintenance ruse. She seemed to be very friendly and a real people-person, so perhaps she did not think the worst of people and it didn't even occur to her that it may be dangerous to do so?
6. I noticed no recent posts to this thread from RosesFromAngels, unless I just missed them, though I did try to keep my eyes peeled for them after the Affadavits/Warrents were released. I wondered what his/her thoughts were on the info contained on those releases. Did I miss any posts regarding that?
7. I see that KT and Julia's twin do engage on the comments sections of at least one media article. I SO wish they would interact with WS'ers on this case. At first I understood their silence here, because there are so many things said contrary to what they say they believe. But...they answer comments from the general public, so why not come 'help' us here, who have a true interest in this case being solved. I have followed many cases here and have seen multiple times posted the rule that this is a 'family friendly' place and no abuse of family will be tolerated and have seen where any such things have been shut down right away. I have read that they do, in fact, read here so I would love it if they brainstormed WITH us, and perhaps cleared a few things up.
Okay, sorry for the epic-length post right out of the gate. I have just refrained from posting until I've read all the info here so I wasn't asking things that were already addressed in later posts that I was reading at the time.
Three years...it is time for Justice For Julia. Prayers go out to her loved ones.

 

[Skigirl]

Whew. I just started reading this case a few days ago, reading through all five threads from the beginning (and many linked articles), literally staying up around-the-clock one day/night to do so. I'm thankful to be caught up to date, though so very sad that there hasn't been any resolution, or Justice For Julia yet.
First, huge hugs to Trojan, Julia's grandfather, for continuing to read here and help provide information.
So many other thoughts...but more questions.
I am carefully optimistic about Grandma Rose's statement in the recent article linked above that the police are looking at several people and seem to be making some progress. I have no real opinion on the guilt or innocence of JT. I truly wish he would sit down and talk to police and give them what they want as far as a formal statement, though I am glad to see that LE seem to be investigating other people, and are perhaps open to other options. I must say that I somewhat understand the reasons given for him to NOT sit down and perhaps put himself at risk of being 'tripped up' after this many years. I can barely tell you what I had for lunch yesterday and if I were questioned and got it wrong and was able to be proved wrong, it could seem like I was lying. Still, I do believe that I would do any cooperating (especially in the beginning and over the years, so as not to have a foggy memory) to help find my child's killer, or at least remove myself from POI status. As the mother, I would DEMAND my spouse do the same, long ago.
I do have a few questions/thoughts that came to mind early on and throughout my reading...
1. Did the roomates move out immediately? I simply cannot fathom staying in that apartment when the killer hadn't been caught, or truthfully, even if the killer had been caught. I would be breaking a lease, whatever it took to get out of there. I just couldn't live there knowing what occurred in the next room.
2. Did they get a new roomate to live in Julia's room? I cannot imagine any new person feeling comfortable in there.
3. Am I correct in understanding that after THREE years LE still doesn't have a DNA profile on the semen found? I find this almost impossible to believe, unless one couldn't be established because for some reason. Please forgive me if I missed something regarding this. It has truly been a 'cram' session for me reading this case and I very well may have missed something pertaining to that.
4. Random thoughts regarding some things that have been brought up...
I haven't seen this theory mentioned so I will mention it though it really doesn't go toward solving anything. I think perhaps the missing pillowcase 'may' have been cut into strips to use as ligatures to bind her. There were obviously scissors or a knife or cutting tool used, as evidenced by her cut-off clothing. Also, that an older person seen in the building would have been noticed as suspicious may not be true. I have a friend who works for a Florida university as a state employee, who is in his late 40's and lives in an apartment complex that houses many students and in fact has or has had roomates who were students. They share kitchen and living rooms, but he often spends the majority of time in his private bedroom/bathroom suite. From what I recall reading, Julia's complex wasn't exclusively for students and some rooms may have been rented out to non-students of varying ages.
5. On page 19 of this thread, there was a link that had some reviews of the complex. One thing that stood out to me was the statement by a former resident. It stated as one complaint that maintenance personnel showed up at odd times (paraphrasing) to do work. This has always been in the back of my mind, that Julia may have perhaps let in someone in a maintenance ruse. She seemed to be very friendly and a real people-person, so perhaps she did not think the worst of people and it didn't even occur to her that it may be dangerous to do so?
6. I noticed no recent posts to this thread from RosesFromAngels, unless I just missed them, though I did try to keep my eyes peeled for them after the Affadavits/Warrents were released. I wondered what his/her thoughts were on the info contained on those releases. Did I miss any posts regarding that?
7. I see that KT and Julia's twin do engage on the comments sections of at least one media article. I SO wish they would interact with WS'ers on this case. At first I understood their silence here, because there are so many things said contrary to what they say they believe. But...they answer comments from the general public, so why not come 'help' us here, who have a true interest in this case being solved. I have followed many cases here and have seen multiple times posted the rule that this is a 'family friendly' place and no abuse of family will be tolerated and have seen where any such things have been shut down right away. I have read that they do, in fact, read here so I would love it if they brainstormed WITH us, and perhaps cleared a few things up.
Okay, sorry for the epic-length post right out of the gate. I have just refrained from posting until I've read all the info here so I wasn't asking things that were already addressed in later posts that I was reading at the time.
Three years...it is time for Justice For Julia. Prayers go out to her loved ones.

Midge,

Welcome to the thread and thanks for a great post. Also, thank you for reading all the previous threads -- too often newcomers to a thread pop in and say, basically, "it was too much work to read what's come before, but let me throw out this idea that has been debated ad-nauseum in previous threads so we can rehash old discussions that I didn't read, thereby making more stuff for people to read." I need to go back and re-read the previous threads since my memory of some of the details is getting a little foggy, too.

Also, thanks for the reminder about treatment of families of victims. It is always awkward when a family member is a suspect or POI, and there is a fine line between discussing theories and being abusive to the grieving, and I agree, there is more to be gained by working with willing family members than there is to be gained by vilifying non-POI family members. I have been guilty of that and plan to be more measured -- it's always good form anyway.

I also agree that it could have been a maintenance worker, and people who looked like they could be providing maintenance would not have seemed noteworthy at all. That said, I am pretty familiar with housing at EMU and U of M (though that particular building didn't exist when I lived in that area) and I can say that buildings that are specifically marketed to students -- like Julia's -- don't tend to draw too many people who aren't students, or even who aren't undergraduates. There is plenty of housing in and around Ypsi and Ann Arbor that students sometimes gravitate toward areas that are settled by non-students, but it is very rare for things to be vice-versa. I lived in a small apartment building for 4 years and the one guy who was not a student who lived in our building was super-conspicuous, and non-resident visitors who weren't student age would have been even more conspicuous. All-told, I think an older man (and by "older" I mean "older than 32 or 33") would probably stand-out unless he looked like a maintenance worker. So, I would be hard-pressed to think (as some earlier posts suggested) that Julia was having a tryst with a married older man, like a professor, and was waiting for him at her apartment under the guise of studying. It's not impossible, but I just don't think it's likely.

-Skigirl

 

[Deleted member 132804]

This is an excellent idea. Agreed, Julia's clothing was cut off, so a pillowcase could've been cut into strips to bind. As noted in past posts, we've returned to how Julia was possibly restrained, and what the killer(s) may have been carrying with him into the apartment verses something being used inside the apartment. We troubleshooted, rope, zip ties, and a belt of some kind.

 

[Midge Montana]

Do we know Julia's height and weight at the time of her death? Photos show what seem to be fluctuating weight. I've peeked at some of her Pinterest posts and many of them suggest a struggle with weight, both in comments and in memes.
From what I have seen she was certainly not a small girl, but a solid and at times, heavy one.
I'm trying to follow, in my mind, a sequence of events of that horrible night. IMO, an unconscious girl of that size would be somewhat difficult for one person of average build to lift into the bath tub. From what I understand (and I may be incorrect), she was not mobile herself when she was put in there. IMO, one person would really have to struggle to get her in there, perhaps creating bruising or other injuries as they jostled her in. It seems more likely that two people may have been involved, which would explain the two DNA samples on the gloves.
Has there been any investigation into whether the panic button in her room was pushed, even if not answered, and was it tested to see if it was even functioning? From reviews I have read about the apartments, the panic buttons have sometimes gone unanswered. I don't imagine the apartment complex corporation would be very forthcoming with that information if that happened.
I have also abandoned the theory that someone followed her into the building and subsequently the apartment by force. I just can't believe that someone would do that not knowing whether others would be inside the apartment. Unless, of course, that person knew there would be nobody else there, somehow.
Regarding the possible use of a taser: I know that someone here (sorry, I can't remember who) had discussed that tasers weren't available to the public until just before her death. That jogged my memory of a post of someone I know on FB who had a photo of one they bought right around mid-November of 2012. Now, this person worked in a state that isn't Michigan, but did have a Michigan residence, so I am not sure where it was shipped to. This person worked in the oil fields, in another state, which are riddled with criminals which explains why they'd have one for personal protection. It was a taser/flashlight.
Though a map on a website where you can buy this model clearly marks them as illegal in Michigan, we all know that the legality of weapons doesn't really stop some people from obtaining them. Still, I would think that LE would know immediately if those marks on her elbow had come from a taser. They were stated to be abrasions, which to me means more like skin rubbed off than 'burn' marks that would come from a taser. JMO.
Another thing I have been pondering is: How much water was actually in the tub when they found her? IIRC, the document stated a tub full of water, or something similar. However, there are a few things that make me wonder about that. First of all, and I admit I don't know anything about this area, the semen sample found on her thigh. After two days of submersion, wouldn't that have 'dissolved' into the water? Also, and this pains me to even type this, someone (a friend of hers) reported going to the funeral and said she looked just as she did in life, beautiful, makeup, etc. Again, after two days of being in the water, wouldn't her skin have had marked changes in appearance if indeed she'd been submerged that whole time? From what I could glean from this article, (the section on decomposition) there would be. http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=430
I also had a family member drown who wasn't found for a few days and his face was unrecognizable due to bloating, etc. It just doesn't seem to reconcile to me that she looked perfectly normal at her funeral if indeed she'd been underwater the whole time.

 

[Skigirl]

Do we know Julia's height and weight at the time of her death? Photos show what seem to be fluctuating weight. I've peeked at some of her Pinterest posts and many of them suggest a struggle with weight, both in comments and in memes.
From what I have seen she was certainly not a small girl, but a solid and at times, heavy one.
I'm trying to follow, in my mind, a sequence of events of that horrible night. IMO, an unconscious girl of that size would be somewhat difficult for one person of average build to lift into the bath tub. From what I understand (and I may be incorrect), she was not mobile herself when she was put in there. IMO, one person would really have to struggle to get her in there, perhaps creating bruising or other injuries as they jostled her in. It seems more likely that two people may have been involved, which would explain the two DNA samples on the gloves.
Has there been any investigation into whether the panic button in her room was pushed, even if not answered, and was it tested to see if it was even functioning? From reviews I have read about the apartments, the panic buttons have sometimes gone unanswered. I don't imagine the apartment complex corporation would be very forthcoming with that information if that happened.
I have also abandoned the theory that someone followed her into the building and subsequently the apartment by force. I just can't believe that someone would do that not knowing whether others would be inside the apartment. Unless, of course, that person knew there would be nobody else there, somehow.
Regarding the possible use of a taser: I know that someone here (sorry, I can't remember who) had discussed that tasers weren't available to the public until just before her death. That jogged my memory of a post of someone I know on FB who had a photo of one they bought right around mid-November of 2012. Now, this person worked in a state that isn't Michigan, but did have a Michigan residence, so I am not sure where it was shipped to. This person worked in the oil fields, in another state, which are riddled with criminals which explains why they'd have one for personal protection. It was a taser/flashlight.
Though a map on a website where you can buy this model clearly marks them as illegal in Michigan, we all know that the legality of weapons doesn't really stop some people from obtaining them. Still, I would think that LE would know immediately if those marks on her elbow had come from a taser. They were stated to be abrasions, which to me means more like skin rubbed off than 'burn' marks that would come from a taser. JMO.
Another thing I have been pondering is: How much water was actually in the tub when they found her? IIRC, the document stated a tub full of water, or something similar. However, there are a few things that make me wonder about that. First of all, and I admit I don't know anything about this area, the semen sample found on her thigh. After two days of submersion, wouldn't that have 'dissolved' into the water? Also, and this pains me to even type this, someone (a friend of hers) reported going to the funeral and said she looked just as she did in life, beautiful, makeup, etc. Again, after two days of being in the water, wouldn't her skin have had marked changes in appearance if indeed she'd been submerged that whole time? From what I could glean from this article, (the section on decomposition) there would be. http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=430
I also had a family member drown who wasn't found for a few days and his face was unrecognizable due to bloating, etc. It just doesn't seem to reconcile to me that she looked perfectly normal at her funeral if indeed she'd been underwater the whole time.

I guess I really need to go back and refamiliarize myself with the timeline because I had forgotten that it was two days and not one.

Interesting point about the bloating. I wonder how much difference the temperature of the water makes, and also, if her face was truly submerged. The reports said, "face down" but I suppose that doesn't mean that her face was literally submerged in water, especially since they noted that her position was unnatural. I hate even letting my mind go to what that could mean with the ligatures -- this crime is too awful for words.

I agree that her weight looks like it fluctuated. I thought she looked like her weight was on the middle of her range in the pictures from her trip to NY (http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/...ia-niswender-found-murdered-in-apartment.html) not long before her death. I would have guessed her weight to be in the 150s. I know from having lived on a farm and having to move an anesthetized goat (that probably weighted a little more than that) that a unconscious body is incredibly heavy, but I'm not sure how much difference 20 pounds either way makes.

 

[Midge Montana]

Regarding JT's alibi for that night: Someone on here stated that there were discrepancies at first with the stories of those that were in the home, and that their stories changed over time to match. (I *think* this might have been 4ist, but not at all sure, I so wish I had bookmarked.) Does anyone else remember seeing this? I remember being surprised that that hadn't gotten discussed.
My question is what were the other versions of the story of that night? When, and how many times did they change?

 

[black_squirrel]

Regarding JT's alibi for that night: Someone on here stated that there were discrepancies at first with the stories of those that were in the home, and that their stories changed over time to match. (I *think* this might have been 4ist, but not at all sure, I so wish I had bookmarked.) Does anyone else remember seeing this? I remember being surprised that that hadn't gotten discussed.
My question is what were the other versions of the story of that night? When, and how many times did they change?

I don't remember exactly, but that probably was just speculation. The testimonies mentioned in the affidavit of the sister and of the mother were not exactly the same but pretty close.

 

[Mountaingazer]

I don't think her body was even remotely fully submerged. If her face was down in the water, then a good portion of her legs would have been sticking out and vice-versa. I don't know if someone has a link handy, but there were pictures posted at one time of what the bathrooms look like and the bathtubs aren't very large. Mine is about the same size and at 5'7", I can't get anywhere close to being able to lay down.

We also don't know how full the tub was.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 132804]

Regarding JT's alibi for that night: Someone on here stated that there were discrepancies at first with the stories of those that were in the home, and that their stories changed over time to match. (I *think* this might have been 4ist, but not at all sure, I so wish I had bookmarked.) Does anyone else remember seeing this? I remember being surprised that that hadn't gotten discussed.
My question is what were the other versions of the story of that night? When, and how many times did they change?

4ist is a verified insider so probably she or Trojan_1966 could answer this. I, too remember something being said about other versions of the story of that night. And stories possibly changed more to match over time.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

Midge Montana- That's a great observation you are making about timing of being submerged in water. It doesn't seem by what has been found out about the seman being found on the thigh and internally, as well as the overall condition of the body, that she could've been submerged for too long.

Some of us have entertained the idea that the killing may have occurred one night and then the killer returned the next day or so for staging of the scene. As risky as that could be, it would be one possible explanation to this.

Another explanation would be that the said event happened Monday and she was found Tuesday. I believe YPD thought Sunday night was the time of death, or into Monday AM. But we do know that Julia didn't show up for a work function Monday evening. She was also to give others rides that night, so this was unusual.

 

[Trojan1966]

Looking Glass 517 and Midge Montana............
Julia's timeline as I see it: She left work at 5PM Sunday. Evidently went home after stopping at a small store (something similar to 7-11). She missed classes on Monday and Tuesday, didn't show up for work on both days and failed to pick up fellow workers for the Walmart Christmas Party which was on Tuesday night. This seemed to "trigger" lots of concern with her friends. One of her room mates called Security Tuesday night and that started everything happening.
As far as the "bloating" issue, I did not notice any at her funeral and having seen the bathroom and the way things were, there's no way that her entire body could have been submerged in the tub. I believe that this is why there were no obvious signs of "bloating". People that physically drown in a pool or a lake are actually completely submerged in the water for some time which then causes that "bloating" condition. This will actually cause a body to "surface" after a time.
I hope this helps.

 

[ModMaiden]

Regarding JT's alibi for that night: Someone on here stated that there were discrepancies at first with the stories of those that were in the home, and that their stories changed over time to match. (I *think* this might have been 4ist, but not at all sure, I so wish I had bookmarked.) Does anyone else remember seeing this? I remember being surprised that that hadn't gotten discussed.
My question is what were the other versions of the story of that night? When, and how many times did they change?

This is one that comes to mind.

• KT stated she was up and down all night using the bathroom and the POI was always there in bed. (Search Warrant - Section II)
• This differs from what verified members have stated about KT's sleeping habits.

Search Warrant Sections HH and II

• KT stated they went to bed at 10 PM and it was one night she knew the POI was sleeping with her. They don't always sleep together.
• Jennifer was more specific and stated she, the younger sister and both parents went to bed at 10:30 PM.

• Jennifer said POI left for work at 7:30 AM.
• KT says POI left for work at 7:15 AM.

• Jennifer was certain the POI picked up his employee.
• KT thinks the POI probably picked up his employee.

• They did agree on the woman's name of the employee that the POI was to pick up.

Just speculating here but given the small differences in their times, they seem to be saying the same thing.

 

[ModMaiden]

Midge Montana- That's a great observation you are making about timing of being submerged in water. It doesn't seem by what has been found out about the seman being found on the thigh and internally, as well as the overall condition of the body, that she could've been submerged for too long.

Some of us have entertained the idea that the killing may have occurred one night and then the killer returned the next day or so for staging of the scene. As risky as that could be, it would be one possible explanation to this.

Another explanation would be that the said event happened Monday and she was found Tuesday. I believe YPD thought Sunday night was the time of death, or into Monday AM. But we do know that Julia didn't show up for a work function Monday evening. She was also to give others rides that night, so this was unusual.

Ugh, moved to Cold Cases.

10:30 PM on Dec. 9th is the starting time I use. It is the last known time stated by someone of seeing the POI. If the POI went to bed (using KT's time of 10 PM), the earliest to get out of the house would be 1 AM. Leaving too soon would be suspicious if the girls had only gone to bed at 10:30 PM. That's three hours so getting up and down for an upset stomach, this should last for how long? Why was KT going to the restroom so much that night from 10 PM on? Is that normal behavior for her? It is my belief by 1 AM KT is back asleep after 3 hours of bathroom trips and did not notice the POI leaving.

Given an hour drive time, the POI is at Julia's apartment by 2 AM. The POI needs to leave by 5 AM and no later by 5:45 AM to be back at home and seen at the earliest time at 7:15 AM. That gives the POI 3 hours inside Julia's apartment, plenty of time to do what happened. It was planned with calculated precision. The reason I don't feel the killer returned is the roommates were back and it was business as usual with classes and work. I strongly believe Julia was killed in the early hours of Dec. 10th. :moo:

 

[ModMaiden]

I don't think her body was even remotely fully submerged. If her face was down in the water, then a good portion of her legs would have been sticking out and vice-versa. I don't know if someone has a link handy, but there were pictures posted at one time of what the bathrooms look like and the bathtubs aren't very large. Mine is about the same size and at 5'7", I can't get anywhere close to being able to lay down.

We also don't know how full the tub was.

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Totally agree with you on this. Given the position she was found in it doesn't seem likely or possible. Since this was an off-campus apartment living I suspect those bathtubs are standard sized and nothing fancy. How deep the water was in the tub is puzzling. It wasn't full enough to wash away the evidence found on her thigh but enough to drown her. Maybe the tub was filled just enough for only her nose and mouth to be submerged, she was passed out with no way to fight back. :moo:

 

[Midge Montana]

Totally agree with you on this. Given the position she was found in it doesn't seem likely or possible. Since this was an off-campus apartment living I suspect those bathtubs are standard sized and nothing fancy. How deep the water was in the tub is puzzling. It wasn't full enough to wash away the evidence found on her thigh but enough to drown her. Maybe the tub was filled just enough for only her nose and mouth to be submerged, she was passed out with no way to fight back. :moo:

I questioned this because the document states something like: a tub full of water.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

I questioned this because the document states something like: a tub full of water.

I do remember family members saying Julia took showers as far as they remembered. So, I'm speculating the attacker(s) filled the tub with water to remove evidence and possibly try to make Julia's death look like an accident.

So, I did a little experiment using a friend who's about Julia's size in a standard size bathtub. We filled the bathtub up to full just below the metal overdrain and this is what we found:

1. She cannot fully fit in the tub, in a face down position.
2. Her legs have to bend up at the knee.
3. She is partially submerged because her body floats up in this position.

This is crazy because if someone was trying to stage a drowning in the bathtub it would seem more believable if a person of Julia's size was placed on their back into the bathtub with their legs folded at the knee (the knees are out of the bath, and the lower leg and foot submerged). Then, their head lowered into the bathtub water, like they passed out or something. Based on the size of a standard tub and layout the bathroom, falling face first, it seems impossible to land in the position Julia was found.

So, I have to wonder, was Julia placed into the bathtub in an effort to remove evidence only? Or, maybe to preserve the body longer? How much time did the attacker(s) think would go by before Julia would be looked in on? Did the attacker(s) think whom ever found her would quickly remove Julia from the tub in an effort to help, before LE arrived on the scene?

It just seems like someone panicked, only halfway calculating a bathtub drowning the same way they halfway calculated staging a possible robbery in Julia's room, ransacking, with nothing of value missing, except Julia's keys. As for the rubber gloves being found. I hazard to think, but if the attacker(s) were using rubber gloves, why didn't they use a condom? And why use rubber gloves and leave them behind. Seems like another halfway calculated staging to me?

If someone(s) calculated Julia's death, why in early December did this senseless death have to happen? Was it because the opportunity became available? As far as we know, the attacker(s) came to Julia's apartment unannounced, Julia let them in, or the attacker(s) had a key or something. There was no sign of forced entry.