The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[OliviaG1996]

think there was some confusion regarding what I was asking.
What you are calling my NEW question is, in fact, my ORIGINAL question. It was first asked here http://tinyurl.com/j6xtzr2

I asked it again, here, http://tinyurl.com/pnop57o

In the post you replied to, I asked it again, “I’m trying to understand the reason being proposed for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. WHY would they do that?” http://tinyurl.com/ng4tnmg

The “what, where, when” are all premised upon the original question, “why would the Ramseys hide the package?”
.
To answer your questions:
Why do think PR's recollection that JBR regularly wore size 12s and that they were in her drawer adds up?
I don’t recall her saying that jbr regularly wore size 12’s.

Do think they fit JBR?
No; they were over-sized. The Karr warrant states that they were designed for a 12-14 year old girl.

Why do you think they were still in the package when LE received them?
Because they had never been removed from the package.
…

AK

According to PR, the size 12s were removed from the package and worn by JBR (BBM):

From Patsy Ramsey & John Ramsey - BPD Interviews (Atlanta) - August 28, 2000

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.

 

[Tawny]

But, I thought RDI were saying that BPD DID search for the panties, didn’t find them and so, the Ramseys must have did something with them.

And, sorry, but, are you saying that the Ramseys wanted investigators to believe that an intruder brought a pair of panties with him?
…

AK

Is that such a stretch since they also wanted people to believe the intruder brought a whole goodie bag full of stuff to include rope (which the intruder left upstairs?), their own flashlight (and then I dunno stole the R's identical flashlight or something), an a PINEAPPLE SNACK?

I mean, why not throw some undies in that goodie bag while you're at it.

 

[andreww]

Is that such a stretch since they also wanted people to believe the intruder brought a whole goodie bag full of stuff to include rope (which the intruder left upstairs?), their own flashlight (and then I dunno stole the R's identical flashlight or something), an a PINEAPPLE SNACK?

I mean, why not throw some undies in that goodie bag while you're at it.

You forgot the santa bear, the christmas card, etc., etc.

 

[Tawny]

You forgot the santa bear, the christmas card, etc., etc.

Oh and the notepad and pen. The pen that was then put in the R's pen cup thing in the pantry.

 

[InstantProof]

It's interesting that the underwear not fitting was of no concern to JB or P, but the correct day of the week was.

 

[Anti-K]

Imo the point is R didn't want LE to do an immediate thorough search in the house and in their garden or in their car. It was staged accordingly.. Nothing seemed missing ...

* JbR was fully clothed even the exact day Wednesday panties were on.. (Semen/DNA test could be done very well)
*Flashlight on the table out of an open drawer how convenient
*Garrote there, rope there..
*A bat lying in the garden ready to be picked up by LE which could be an assault weapon and not belonging to the R .. Interesting..
*A ransom note with handwriting to keep LE busy while at their house..

One thing was absolutely missing imo.. Size 6 panties JBwas wearing with DNA evidence on it..but replaced with another wednesday panties to fool LE not to search their house and find whatever else was hidden...

One thinks even the body happened to be found(!) by J, how could they find a 6 size underwear when they didn't know what to look for..

Jonbenet was missing.

That’s what the note said. That’s why the police were called. How does inviting the police over and telling them that someone came into their home and kidnapped their child stop the police from searching?
.

Maybe the size 6 panties weren’t missing. Maybe she was wearing the size 12 to begin with.
…

AK

 

[CorallaroC]

According to PR, the size 12s were removed from the package and worn by JBR (BBM):

(snip)--from PR interview quoted above
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.

(snip)
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.

Nice find Olivia, it helps to settle some of the debate surrounding the size 12's. Other topics which PR was questioned, her answers were very vague. But here we see that PR seems confident providing background and details about the bloomies. She certainly doesn't seem mystified about them, as she was for example about the pineapple bowl and teabag in the glass. TY for posting the interview above for proper context. (OliviaG1995's post #641)

 

[questfortrue]

You are correct, the thought of JB purposely wearing those giant panties is ridiculous. They simply would not have stayed up!

And the police took the contents of JBs underwear drawer as I recall. If they didn't, they would certainly have taken that unopened package as the matched what she was wearing. So we can pretty much say they weren't in the underwear drawer. And we know they weren't in the basement. So where were they?

RBBM
Thanks, andreww.
It always has seemed that the timing of certain events will tell a story more completely. Omitting the arrival and departure of LE and guests, here’s a quick review regarding the timing from the 26th to the 28th. Maybe it will reveal more completely the Lack-of-Oversize-Bloomies caper.

-Morning of December 26 - Police searched for the entrance point of the Kidnapper and any other clues of his presence in the home.
-Afternoon of December 26 – Coroner called. Re-entry of BPD and FBI Agent. Home closed to everyone except LE.
-Afternoon of December 26 – JR’s lawyers attempt to reach FW. (Just tossing that detail in, though there's no Bloomies relevance.)
-Evening of December 26 – Coroner arrives. Examines body for 10 minutes; leaves.

-Evening of December 26 – Warrants secured to remove items from the home. Crime scene technicians would not have known to look for oversize panties as only the autopsy revealed this point. 7 pairs of girl’s underwear removed.
-Morning of December 27 – Coroner performs autopsy. Oversize 12 panties noted, as are injuries to JB’s genital area. A colposcope is brought in, in order to take photos of her vaginal vault.
-Afternoon of December 27 – Crime scene technicians remove another 10 pairs of girl’s underwear.

-Morning/afternoon December 28 – PP, sister to PR, performs her gigantic raid on items from the home.

 

[Anti-K]

JP was not missing..She was not dumped to an unknown place out of the house but was lying in the basement to be found.

Yeah maybe she was wearing size 12 panties to begin with but then why the rest of the package wasn't in her drawer as P told, or not in the basement among other gifts? an open package of underwear in the basement sure would draw attention of LE as there was a sexual assault. where were the rest of her size 12 's ?? They were delivered years later. That is hiding imo.

JBR was reported missing (kidnapped). How does inviting the police over and telling them that someone came into your home and kidnapped your child stop the police from searching?
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Some questions may never be answered, but we can make some very educated guesses. I can think of two explanations as to why she was wearing the Size 12s ;

1) Convenience. The person that killed her for some reason felt that they needed to cover up the evidence of a sexual assault. The fact that only her groin area was wiped down confirms that, and that would be a natural thing to do, be it intruder or family member. However, if the perp was aware that there was packaged underwear in that pile of wrapped gifts, that would definitely shift the focus to the family. The fact that she was redressed at all points at the family. Why would an intruder care? The Ramsey's reaction when it was made public that she had been repeatedly sexually abused sheds some light as to why. Seems they were more offended at being accused of sexual abuse than they were at being accused of murder. But yes, convenience. However did it wanted to hide the fact of sexual abuse and also knew there were panties in that stack of gifts, (Ahem Burke )

2) They simply wanted a "clean" pair of panties on her. This is similar to the first point but speaks more to possible previous ongoing sexual abuse by a family member. Whoever was doing the re-dressing simply didn't feel safe using any of JBs existing underwear for fear of DNA also being present on those.

To me both these scenarios likely point to Patsy covering up for Burke. Burke would certainly have been concerned about redressing but certainly wouldn't have been clever enough to want to use packaged underwear to ensure no further DNA evidence would be discovered. Patsy knew exactly where they were as well. John would likely be unaware that they were even there.

I can think of a third reason. She put them on herself.

1) The evidence does not show that jbr was redressed. This is mere speculation on the part of some posters.

2) She wasn;lt found in lcean panties, or clean leggings, os it makes no sense to say someone changed her panties because they wanted her to be found in clean panties.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

You are correct, the thought of JB purposely wearing those giant panties is ridiculous. They simply would not have stayed up!

And the police took the contents of JBs underwear drawer as I recall. If they didn't, they would certainly have taken that unopened package as the matched what she was wearing. So we can pretty much say they weren't in the underwear drawer. And we know they weren't in the basement. So where were they?

The panties would have stayed up because pants or leggings were worn over top of them.

I can see BPD not taking the package simple because it was a package. As far as I know, they took used panties because they we relooking for evidence consistent with prior abuse. New panties would mean nothing.
.

I’ve seen the picture before. It is not new to me. It tells me nothing that I did not already know.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

According to PR, the size 12s were removed from the package and worn by JBR (BBM):

From Patsy Ramsey & John Ramsey - BPD Interviews (Atlanta) - August 28, 2000

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.

You asked me about “PR's recollection that JBR regularly wore size 12s.” I said I don’t recall her saying that. Now, you post these quotes that do NOT support your claim. From your quotes:

9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.

In your bold, Mrs Ramsey says that since the package was opened, they might as well use them but she doesn’t say that they were actually used; it certainly does not say that they were used “regularly.”
…


AK

 

[Anti-K]

I don’t think the evidence supports the claim that the panties were changed, but, for now, I am willing to accepting that they were. To see where it goes. So far, it goes nowhere. There’s a lot of discussion but none of it is addressing what I was really trying to find out: what is being proposed as reason for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties.
…

AK

 

[InstantProof]

There’s a lot of discussion but none of it is addressing what I was really trying to find out: what is being proposed as reason for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties.
…

AK

If you were staging a crime scene and took a pair of Wednesday panties out of a new container of panties, wouldn't you put the rest of them out of sight? If the package was left out near the body, wouldn't you say the intruder was setting up the parents?

 

[SweetT]

I have a 6 yr old grand daughter and have raised several little girls. If they thought some panties were from some fancy place and they wanted to wear them they would. They wouldnt care if they were too big etc, just like high heels, dresses or anything else, if the leggings or pants kept them up they would be fine with that.
I just don't think Patsy kept that good of an eye on those kids to know everything they did, she wasn't like a great housekeeper or anything, she appears to have been pretty lazy about everything in her home. I'm not surprised that she wouldnt know where stuff is/was or what anyone was wearing at any specific time, especially underwear. Of course this is my opinion.

 

[andreww]

The panties would have stayed up because pants or leggings were worn over top of them.

I can see BPD not taking the package simple because it was a package. As far as I know, they took used panties because they we relooking for evidence consistent with prior abuse. New panties would mean nothing.
.

I’ve seen the picture before. It is not new to me. It tells me nothing that I did not already know.
…

AK

If it tells you nothing that you don't already know, then why would you keep suggesting that any human being would actually put those on and decide to wear them? That is just ridiculous.

 

[andreww]

I have a 6 yr old grand daughter and have raised several little girls. If they thought some panties were from some fancy place and they wanted to wear them they would. They wouldnt care if they were too big etc, just like high heels, dresses or anything else, if the leggings or pants kept them up they would be fine with that.
I just don't think Patsy kept that good of an eye on those kids to know everything they did, she wasn't like a great housekeeper or anything, she appears to have been pretty lazy about everything in her home. I'm not surprised that she wouldnt know where stuff is/was or what anyone was wearing at any specific time, especially underwear. Of course this is my opinion.

But just like so many other things in this case it just happened to happen on THAT night. And just coincidentally the package goes missing too!

In Pasty's interview she claims to have bought the panties as a gift for Jenny Davis. She never says why she changed her mind about giving them. She never says "We got her this instead". She never says whether something was wrapped and she never says if something was sent. Its always a big f-ing mystery with these people and there is never an answer that completely explains a question. She knew damned well what LE was asking "Just explain what happened to them!". A normal person would say something like this;

"we bought the panties in NY as part of an Xmas gift for JD. A few weeks after we got home I saw a beautiful outfit that suited JD to a tee, so we bought her that instead. I wrapped that up and shipped it to Jenny on the 10th. I took the panties and put them in my drawer thinking that in a couple of years JB would be big enough to wear them and that was the last place I saw them. JB must have snuck in and found them and opened them prematurely. Everything was boxed up and shipped to Atlanta, so that is the last place I saw them."

Yes, that is how a normal innocent person would answer that question. I find it offensive to think that some people here actually think she was being honest, or helpful in any way.

Ya right, she wore those panties :tantrum:

 

[OliviaG1996]

You asked me about “PR's recollection that JBR regularly wore size 12s.” I said I don’t recall her saying that. Now, you post these quotes that do NOT support your claim. From your quotes:

9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.

In your bold, Mrs Ramsey says that since the package was opened, they might as well use them but she doesn’t say that they were actually used; it certainly does not say that they were used “regularly.”
…


AK

Whether or not JBR wore them regularly or not doesn't matter at all, the point was that according to PR, JBR had worn them before. The fact is that PR does say they were opened and that they were "actually used" (BBM):

"I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on."

Yet all pairs were still in the package when received by LE with the exception of the "Wednesday" pair. Why? How? Did JBR only ever happen to put on the "Wednesday" pair?

As for why the Rs would hide the underwear (which I already said I think may have been un-hidden in the basement), they could've wanted to be rid of anything that had obviously been part of the crime. Since there was blood on the underwear, they thought they needed to stash the remaining underwear somewhere until police asked for them, just so that they could look like they're cooperating when they handed over the underwear (somewhat cooperative, at least).

 

[andreww]

I don’t think the evidence supports the claim that the panties were changed, but, for now, I am willing to accepting that they were. To see where it goes. So far, it goes nowhere. There’s a lot of discussion but none of it is addressing what I was really trying to find out: what is being proposed as reason for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties.
…

AK

Simply, what if the package is covered in Patsy's fingerprints and has nothing to show JB ever touched it? What if she opened that package whilst wearing the gloves that she just wiped her down with? JBs blood on that package certainly wouldn't jive with the story she was telling. But more than anything I thing those panties were wrapped in one of those opened presents and she was scared out of her mind that Burke's prints and DNA would be found all over them.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

The panties would have stayed up because pants or leggings were worn over top of them.

I can see BPD not taking the package simple because it was a package. As far as I know, they took used panties because they we relooking for evidence consistent with prior abuse. New panties would mean nothing.
.

I’ve seen the picture before. It is not new to me. It tells me nothing that I did not already know.
…

AK

QUOTE The panties would have stayed up because pants or leggings were worn over top of them. QUOTE

Right ...maybe that's why nightgown was near JB's body.. was replaced with the leggings for the huge panties to stay up..:hiding: