Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery

[SCHMAE]

The Avery trial documents are public record, you just have to take the time to go and get them, but Calumet County has no obligation to put them online because a documentary is made, and they generally wouldn't. I can't see why Calumet County would deny access to the transcripts if you requested copies of them, it's just a matter of requesting and paying for them. They aren't being hidden as far as I know.

How much do they cost ? Maybe we should all pitch in 2 bucks and buy them and then the lucky winner gets to scan them all up for us !

 

[stephsb]

How much do they cost ? Maybe we should all pitch in 2 bucks and buy them and then the lucky winner gets to scan them all up for us !

I'm not certain the rules for Calumet County but I could do some research on it today. Clearly they are willing to release trial transcripts, since we have Dassey's. I think the length and volume
would be why a digital copy has not been released for Avery and why no one has scanned the docs online. If each day is 200 pages (a low estimate) and his trial was roughly 5 weeks, were looking at prob a minimum 5,000 pgs, but I would not be at all surprised if it neared 10,000. They could also release portions, which might be a more feasible option


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[LemonMousse]

I have not started episode 5 but I have a question for those who believe SA is innocent of this murder. Do you believe a 3rd party killed her and was never investigated and got away with it ? Or do you believe LE killed her to frame SA ? TIA

I really, really don't believe that LE murdered Theresa. I think they were certain that Steven did and helped the case along a bit. And I think this was principally Lenk and Colborn and perhaps their boss....I don't think Fassbender and Weigert were party to it. They certainly led Brendan's "confession" but I don't think this was with malice aforethought, if you see what I mean. They were just so desperate to get a result that they didn't engage their tiny brains.

I do actually think Steven may be innocent because.....

Jodi called him twice on his landline and he answered quickly both times. That would be an amazing coincidence if he was in and out of his trailer burning a body.

The "romantic" telephone call between them was light, funny and flirtatious...I struggle to believe this level of calmness is at all likely after he'd just brutally murdered someone

Theresa was not murdered in his trailer or garage...so if he did it, he'd have to have gone elsewhere. So how did he manage to be in both times Jodi called?

The magazine in his trailer shows that he wasn't planning on saying that he never saw Theresa. Ridiculous to suggest that he cleaned everything up, hid her car and burnt her body and then left a magazine and bill of sale that can only have come from her sitting on his desk in full view. And the bill of sale has a ring on it that shows a cup rested there...so he was aware of it, but didn't care.

Brendan's real story - the one he began and ended with - alibis Steven (which is probably why the State went after Brendan in the first place). Casually inviting a teenage nephew over to help you with the bonfire which you know has a female corpse in it? No way.

I do think that someone from the Avery compound is responsible, though. And I think that person (one of two) opportunistically moved already burnt bones into Steven's pit after spotting that he usefully had a bonfire going that night.

I also think that the cause of the entire incident may have begun as a road rage issue.

All speculative, obviously. But those are my personal thoughts at the moment.

 

[blastfemur]

How would they have even known she was on the property?

I've thought about this too. If you run with the thought that Lenk and Colburn were conspiring to frame Avery, it's not much of a stretch to imagine them watching his property, noting who's coming and going. They could even have his phone tapped. Not saying I believe this is what happened, but it's not terribly difficult to imagine.

 

[watergirl62]

Thank you!

This case has been haunting me since I finished the series last weekend. I'm glad to be here and am grateful for the thread and the information people are sharing.

I cannot say with complete confidence that Avery is guilty or innocent. But, it's blisteringly obvious that he was a 'made' man from the onset and did not receive a fair trial.

bbm
I am left in the same place. If the "investigation" hadn't been so focused on convicting one particular person, there might actually be enough non-circumstantial evidence preserved to implicate other suspects. What a cluster@$*



OT, but definitely a case with some similarities:
Hae Min Lee's murder / Adnan Syed's conviction. He IS making some headway in his appeals.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...7-Baltimore-Murder-Re-Examined-in-New-Podcast

 

[catswhiskers]

I'm totally on board with believing that local LE had been trying to set up SA (and they succeeded) - but to me this wouldn't fit with someone else from the property being responsible for the murder. How would that explain the theories about all the evidence supposedly planted by LE?
Assuming SA is not really guilty, I also think it was as dodgy as heck that those closest to Theresa did not seem to have been even considered or investigated. But again - if it was anyone outside the Avery compound, it's just too far fetched to believe that they worked in cahoots with local LE to place the blame on SA.
So to believe that LE interfered with or planted evidence, it seems that they either had to have played a part in an innocent woman's death (a huge stretch for me) or that somehow they came upon Theresa already deceased and instantly snapped into action to place the blame on their long time nemesis SA.
If LE didn't plant the key, blood, rav4, bullet etc - then they have very serious image issues, because they sure come across as dishonest and deceitful at all turns - including in the witness seat.

ETA - Happy New Year from Australia - almost one hour into 2016 in my neck of the woods! :fireworks: artyguy2:

 

[SCHMAE]

Anonymous has posted Crime Lab Photos, as well as Pam's photos of Teresa's vehicle showing damage. The Wheel Well cover is missing and front light is in back of vehicle. A mechanic informed them that this damage was likely due to a tow rope or chain. If you are on twitter and want to see more info they have use #MakingAMurderer #Anonymous

Crime lab photos
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXWjYO7WQAEZRn_.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXWPAc9WMAAGW_Q.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXWPAYHWcAE0r-3.jpg

Pam's (who found the vehicle) photos

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXS3SE5UkAAogZg.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXP-W6IWMAEsCF4.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXP-W-_WYAA-FGN.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXP-T4qWwAA8eMB.jpg

Why would you tow it if you had the key ?

 

[catswhiskers]

Good point. It would be interesting to know if the car was driveable or if it had broken down or been disabled in some way.
Maybe towing it made it easier to keep pesky dna transfer under control too?

eta - forgot to quote SHMAE'S post wondering about reason for towing.

 

[SCHMAE]

I think it's a good possibility that the messages were deleted not from her phone itself, but from someone who dialed into her voicemail remotely. Specifically one of the 'group' that ironically cracked her code. The ex-bf didn't really say that he DIDN'T delete anything, just that he didn't think so or something to that effect.
The debt collector is an interesting theory, but all of the mystery behind this could've been proven easily by a basic search of her phone logs.

Was there a way to check phone messages online in 2005 ? Somewhere mid 2000s the internet became a lot more useful than it had been before but I have a hard time pinpointing when certain things were available ' online'. TIA if anyone knows the answer.

 

[SCHMAE]

I find it very hard to believe that a guy who: 1) lost 18 years of his life in prison for a crime which he didn't commit, would: 2) After gaining his freedom, and looking at a windfall of millions of dollars, risk it all for a motiveless crime.

And, oh yeah, leave all sorts of incriminating evidence on his property, but NO DNA evidence from the victim/crime scene to speak of.

Sure.

I agree with you but I love devil's advocate. I'm not saying he's guilty or not because I do not know ( nor do any of us ) . But some of the things coming out here but not in the docu have me thinking. And I know they are big IF's but please play along.
If he did ' let his cousin go' because of the baby in the car but had intended to kidnap her .........
If he did molest his nephew and others .........
If he did run around outdoors naked.........
If he did come to door in a towel when Teresa came previously......
If his brothers have sex offenses.......
Then I think we could paint a picture of a guy driven by a sexual desire and they don't think about time in prison or any money or anything else once they get the urge .

Like I say I'm still not finished but I'm trying to stay open to all sides right now. People react to their sexual urges all day , every day without one bit of concern for the future. By that token, why would happily married men with families and good jobs risk prison to rape and kill ? Yet, they do it every day.

 

[stephsb]

I agree with you but I love devil's advocate. I'm not saying he's guilty or not because I do not know ( nor do any of us ) . But some of the things coming out here but not in the docu have me thinking. And I know they are big IF's but please play along.
If he did ' let his cousin go' because of the baby in the car but had intended to kidnap her .........
If he did molest his nephew and others .........
If he did run around outdoors naked.........
If he did come to door in a towel when Teresa came previously......
If his brothers have sex offenses.......
Then I think we could paint a picture of a guy driven by a sexual desire and they don't think about time in prison or any money or anything else once they get the urge .

Like I say I'm still not finished but I'm trying to stay open to all sides right now. People react to their sexual urges all day , every day without one bit of concern for the future. By that token, why would happily married men with families and good jobs risk prison to rape and kill ? Yet, they do it every day.

THANK YOU, I am so glad someone is finally recognizing that this did not have to be a motiveless crime. You are exactly right in saying that every day people through away everything they have for their sexual urges. Either they feel they're above the law, or they've done it before and not been caught, or they simply can't control themselves once in the situation. Would like to add that it is not "if his brothers have sex offenses" this is proven. CCAP is the source.

 

[steveml]

For the record, I am sick of people saying Steven had no motive, he was going to get a huge payout and was turning his life around. The apparent motive immediately should have been sexual assault. I believe that the motive was sexual assault, and that he could have done it. No one ever suggested (except Brendan of course) that the motive was anything else. While I believe Steven could have done it, there were at least two other people who had committed and been charged w. sex offenses running around that salvage yard. I'd just like to put to rest the notion that Steven is this wonderful person. The guy poured gasoline on the family cat and lit it on fire, and he served 6 years for assaulting his female cousin with a deadly weapon because she spread rumors about him. This guy was not know for his restraint or rational thinking, just saying. Then again, neither were his brothers.

I'm not of the agreement that Steven Avery's motive was sexual assault, certainly not based on the evidence supplied by the State. Without Brendan's unreliable confessions, the story they offer of what happened to Teresa before she was murdered is simply what it is...a story. There isn't a single piece of evidence, physical, forensic or otherwise which suggests that Teresa was sexually assaulted before she was murdered.
The whole concept of sexual assault being part of this crime is because Brendan Dassey said it was. Nothing more. The judge, correctly in my view, dismissed the charge of sexual assault against Steven Avery.

I accept that there was very little chance of proving sexual assault due to the lack of bodily remains, however, we are supposed to err on the side of innocence until proven otherwise. Essentially, that doesn't give us the option to throw in a charge of sexual assault simply because we think he was the type of character that 'may' have done this. That's exactly what Kratz and Co. did when they incorrectly locked Steven Avery away the first time. An error that lasted 18 years.

 

[Lamima]

What about the girl cousin (I think she was a cousin) with initial K who was put on the stand where she said what she had told LE was made up? She had told LE about Brendan (that's what made them question Brendan)...said he told her what he and SA had done. On the stand she retracted her statement and was in tears. I, personally, feel like she told the truth originally to LE.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMur...did_kayla_avery_lie_to_school_counselors_and/

 

[bessythecat]

I really, really don't believe that LE murdered Theresa. I think they were certain that Steven did and helped the case along a bit. And I think this was principally Lenk and Colborn and perhaps their boss....I don't think Fassbender and Weigert were party to it. They certainly led Brendan's "confession" but I don't think this was with malice aforethought, if you see what I mean. They were just so desperate to get a result that they didn't engage their tiny brains.

I do actually think Steven may be innocent because.....

Jodi called him twice on his landline and he answered quickly both times. That would be an amazing coincidence if he was in and out of his trailer burning a body.

The "romantic" telephone call between them was light, funny and flirtatious...I struggle to believe this level of calmness is at all likely after he'd just brutally murdered someone

Theresa was not murdered in his trailer or garage...so if he did it, he'd have to have gone elsewhere. So how did he manage to be in both times Jodi called?

The magazine in his trailer shows that he wasn't planning on saying that he never saw Theresa. Ridiculous to suggest that he cleaned everything up, hid her car and burnt her body and then left a magazine and bill of sale that can only have come from her sitting on his desk in full view. And the bill of sale has a ring on it that shows a cup rested there...so he was aware of it, but didn't care.

Brendan's real story - the one he began and ended with - alibis Steven (which is probably why the State went after Brendan in the first place). Casually inviting a teenage nephew over to help you with the bonfire which you know has a female corpse in it? No way.

I do think that someone from the Avery compound is responsible, though. And I think that person (one of two) opportunistically moved already burnt bones into Steven's pit after spotting that he usefully had a bonfire going that night.

I also think that the cause of the entire incident may have begun as a road rage issue.

All speculative, obviously. But those are my personal thoughts at the moment.

Could you elaborate on the road rage issue? I'm curious and have not heard that theory yet.

 

[stephsb]

I'm totally on board with believing that local LE had been trying to set up SA (and they succeeded) - but to me this wouldn't fit with someone else from the property being responsible for the murder. How would that explain the theories about all the evidence supposedly planted by LE?
Assuming SA is not really guilty, I also think it was as dodgy as heck that those closest to Theresa did not seem to have been even considered or investigated. But again - if it was anyone outside the Avery compound, it's just too far fetched to believe that they worked in cahoots with local LE to place the blame on SA.
So to believe that LE interfered with or planted evidence, it seems that they either had to have played a part in an innocent woman's death (a huge stretch for me) or that somehow they came upon Theresa already deceased and instantly snapped into action to place the blame on their long time nemesis SA.
If LE didn't plant the key, blood, rav4, bullet etc - then they have very serious image issues, because they sure come across as dishonest and deceitful at all turns - including in the witness seat.

ETA - Happy New Year from Australia - almost one hour into 2016 in my neck of the woods! :fireworks: artyguy2:

I think this could easily fit w. someone else on the property being responsible for the murder. I believe that law enforcement planted the key, blood, and probably the bullet. I do not believe they planted the RAV4, but they may have tampered w. it. Unfortunately, since they failed to cover the RAV4 w. a tarp against the advice of their DNA expert from Madison and let it sit out in the rain for hours, we will never know if there was evidence on the outside of the RAV4. The source of this is John Earl, the expert who testified at both Avery and Dassey's trials.

The article I posted mentions 4 people on the Avery property who should have been investigated as suspects. One of them, CA, had no alibi, previous sex offenses, restraining orders, domestic abuse injunctions, etc etc. He knew Steven was having Halbach on the property and had easy access to it. He should have been investigated THOROUGHLY for this crime. Even if he did do it, that doesn't exclude Steven. He could have still been involved in some way, either setting up the crime, during the commission, or the clean-up. Police also could have planted evidence in this scenario as well. Allegedly, CA was in contact w. police officers, Barb Janda complains about no one telling her anything and CA being the one they talked to on various occasions. Maybe they suspected CA, or any of the other 3 suspects named by the defense, and thought it'd be more convenient to pin it on Steven. Or maybe CA wanted to set up Steven- there was supposedly jealously between them, and one of the phone calls in the documentary doesn't show a close brotherly relationship between them. I believe he currently is of the impression Steven can rot in prison for what he did- I'll try to see where I got those quotes from and if they are actually attributed to him. LE had every reason to set up Avery- they could improve their reputations, and make the lawsuit go away. But I definitely do not believe LE killed this girl, and don't see the ex-boyfriend or brother as viable suspects, although they should have definitely been investigated at least at the beginning.

 

[Lamima]

I wouldn't think any brothers or family would want to help set up SA because he was about to come into all that money. Though, I guess, if one of them murdered Theresa then their desire to save their own butts might be worth more than SA's upcoming windfall.

 

[Zuri]

Welcome Blastfemur! Thank you for posting!

 

[LemonMousse]

Could you elaborate on the road rage issue? I'm curious and have not heard that theory yet.

It's only my theory so could be tripe

Steven said that he saw Theresa drive off, went into his trailer with the magazine, came back out and saw that Bobby's van had gone.

This would mean that Bobby followed Theresa out - coincidentally, probably.

Up the road a bit something could have happened causing a drivers tiff between them...Bobby stops and gets aggressive with her, Scott Tadych happens along, spots them and stops too. Then it all gets serious from there - perhaps with an attack that becomes sexual.

I think they kill her and leave her and her car somewhere. Then when Tadych sees Steven's bonfire later that night he spots an opportunity - gets a burn barrel, goes back to Theresa, burns her, takes her bones to Steven's pit and parks her car at the yard.

I think it would be something like this. I have a really hard time believing that Bobby or anyone saw Theresa and decided there and then to kill and rape her (if that bit happened).....so, the initial encounter was probably accidental.

JMO.

 

[Zuri]

I think it was without a doubt Steven or a third party. Planting evidence to ensure he goes back to prison is somewhat understandable (although terribly unethical) but murdering an innocent one and mutilating her corpse is not. I think these guys were willing to sacrifice their careers and reputations to frame Steven, but do not think they were will to murder or mutilate a corpse. How would they have even known she was on the property? Were they stalking her so the second she left they could make their move and send Steven away for good? I mean come on. That's ridiculous.

I'm of the unpopular opinion Steven did this, or at least a jury could reasonably believe he did. That being said, I am not certain I could have I myself could have convicted him, with so many other great suspects on the property. I believe 100% Brendan is innocent and probably has no first hand knowledge of anything. But I think he heard and saw things, and a close reading of his statements should have led police to look closely at another person on that property. Instead, they changed the subject and led him away from probably some of the only reliable info coming from his mouth. I can post the specific statements later today.

For the record, I am sick of people saying Steven had no motive, he was going to get a huge payout and was turning his life around. The apparent motive immediately should have been sexual assault. I believe that the motive was sexual assault, and that he could have done it. No one ever suggested (except Brendan of course) that the motive was anything else. While I believe Steven could have done it, there were at least two other people who had committed and been charged w. sex offenses running around that salvage yard. I'd just like to put to rest the notion that Steven is this wonderful person. The guy poured gasoline on the family cat and lit it on fire, and he served 6 years for assaulting his female cousin with a deadly weapon because she spread rumors about him. This guy was not know for his restraint or rational thinking, just saying. Then again, neither were his brothers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jumping off your excellent post:
If I didn't already know that SA was convicted for this crime, I would have guessed a younger person did it. There were several young men that lived on that property. SA could have crushed the car, however someone younger may not have known how. The bones found have bothered me greatly as having seen the grid used for Caylee, it was not done here.

For some reason, IMOO, it looks as though LE had the opportunity to make the scene fit the crime that was not necessarily done by SA. IMO, SA does not appear to have the intelligence or guile to effectively lie.

His face was a stark contrast to the LEO on the stand, who appeared less than truthful. They all seemed to have tells. I watched Kratz "pill roll" while they were on the stand being questioned. Pill rolling is a sign of anxiety or nervousness. Why would Kratz have been nervous when Lenk and Colbourn were on the stand?

 

[Zuri]

It's only my theory so could be tripe

Steven said that he saw Theresa drive off, went into his trailer with the magazine, came back out and saw that Bobby's van had gone.

This would mean that Bobby followed Theresa out - coincidentally, probably.

Up the road a bit something could have happened causing a drivers tiff between them...Bobby stops and gets aggressive with her, Scott Tadych happens along, spots them and stops too. Then it all gets serious from there - perhaps with an attack that becomes sexual.

I think they kill her and leave her and her car somewhere. Then when Tadych sees Steven's bonfire later that night he spots an opportunity - gets a burn barrel, goes back to Theresa, burns her, takes her bones to Steven's pit and parks her car at the yard.

I think it would be something like this. I have a really hard time believing that Bobby or anyone saw Theresa and decided there and then to kill and rape her (if that bit happened).....so, the initial encounter was probably accidental.

JMO.

Excellent theory!