Wondergirl
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Court will resume Thursday
Deceased/Not Found Canada - Lyle, 78, & Marie McCann, 77, Alberta, 5 July 2010 #2 *T. Vader guilty*
- Thread starter Cubby
- Start date
I think that disclosure requires the release of all information that is relevant to the case. Access to all DNA analysis done in the case would include DNA analysis of others who were excluded as having any connection to the case. That would not, and probably should not, be included in disclosure. On the surface, it looks like an attempt to overwhelm the crown.
The request for all DNA related to the case may be part of the SODDI theory.
That looks like a smoking gun! Why would the elderly couple lend their emergency phone to a stranger so he could keep in touch with his girlfriend?
There is no link included that defines if any forensic analysis excluded anyone else - so that is an unknown to the public at the moment - and it seems the defence as well.
Failure to disclose forensic evidence already stopped the first trial from proceeding - a costly move.
The brief also said an RCMP sergeant "discovered that a collection of investigator's notes had been left sealed within a number of envelopes held in the possession ... of the forensic identification section."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...paid-informant-court-documents-show-1.3400147
Like most other people, I initially thought Vader must be guilty of this crime as the RCMP told the public he was guilty. But when the RCMP started screwing around with disclosure - a cornerstone of the judicial system - I thought it prudent to reset my thinking to neutral and look closely at what they do have. There were no errors imo, it was a deliberate move.
Talking the talk isn't enough imo - Canada has in fact sent innocent people to jail in the past. Would hate to see that happen again in such a modern time.
Just want to know why the RCMP is so skittish at walking the walk.
lauriej
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http://www.reddeeradvocate.com/news...iors_testifies_in_murder_trial_371731991.html
'I started freaking out:' daughter of missing seniors testifies in murder trial
--snip--
When Trudy Holder arrived at the airport in Abbotsford, B.C., she looked around for her parents, but they weren't there to pick her up as planned.
Holder told an Edmonton murder trial Thursday that Lyle and Marie McCann, 78 and 77 respectively, always kept their commitments.
"My mom and dad are never not there," Holder testified. "I started freaking out."
Holder and her daughter had flown to Abbotsford from their home in Calgary to meet the McCanns.
It was July 10, 2010. Holder began making frantic phone calls and discovered her parents had not checked in to a nearby campground where the family was to spend the next two weeks on holiday. She also phoned her two brothers, a friend of her parents and the RCMP to report the seniors missing.
--more@link..
'I started freaking out:' daughter of missing seniors testifies in murder trial
--snip--
When Trudy Holder arrived at the airport in Abbotsford, B.C., she looked around for her parents, but they weren't there to pick her up as planned.
Holder told an Edmonton murder trial Thursday that Lyle and Marie McCann, 78 and 77 respectively, always kept their commitments.
"My mom and dad are never not there," Holder testified. "I started freaking out."
Holder and her daughter had flown to Abbotsford from their home in Calgary to meet the McCanns.
It was July 10, 2010. Holder began making frantic phone calls and discovered her parents had not checked in to a nearby campground where the family was to spend the next two weeks on holiday. She also phoned her two brothers, a friend of her parents and the RCMP to report the seniors missing.
--more@link..
lauriej
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http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/Vader-trial-delayed-by-car-trouble-20160313
Vader trial delayed by car trouble
March 14, 2016
--snip--
--Defence lawyer Brian Beresh said he spoke to Vader earlier in the morning, and his car had broken down so he was waiting for a tow truck and would arrive as soon as he could.
--
First, Edson firefighter Lt. Robert Burgess, who was the commander on the fire scene involving the McCanns motorhome, testified he believes the fire started as a result of a fuel leak.
It appeared the motorhome was driven up to the berm very quickly, in an attempt to get over it, he said.
Burgess explained that impact may have forced the engine back into the chassis, severing the fuel line, and he believed a subsequent spark started the fire.
Under Beresh's cross-examination, he said it was possible the driver would have suffered lower-leg injuries as a result of that collision.
I won't discount that. It's possible, he said. I would suspect there would be some visible bruises.
Burgess confirmed as well that based on his decades of experience as a firefighter, and that of Capt. Lee'Roy Lonsberry who commanded the second vehicle on the scene, there were no human remains in the vehicle.
--more@link.
Vader trial delayed by car trouble
March 14, 2016
--snip--
--Defence lawyer Brian Beresh said he spoke to Vader earlier in the morning, and his car had broken down so he was waiting for a tow truck and would arrive as soon as he could.
--
First, Edson firefighter Lt. Robert Burgess, who was the commander on the fire scene involving the McCanns motorhome, testified he believes the fire started as a result of a fuel leak.
It appeared the motorhome was driven up to the berm very quickly, in an attempt to get over it, he said.
Burgess explained that impact may have forced the engine back into the chassis, severing the fuel line, and he believed a subsequent spark started the fire.
Under Beresh's cross-examination, he said it was possible the driver would have suffered lower-leg injuries as a result of that collision.
I won't discount that. It's possible, he said. I would suspect there would be some visible bruises.
Burgess confirmed as well that based on his decades of experience as a firefighter, and that of Capt. Lee'Roy Lonsberry who commanded the second vehicle on the scene, there were no human remains in the vehicle.
--more@link.
lauriej
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...to-hear-testimony-from-mccann-s-son-1.3491449
[h=1]Travis Vader murder trial to hear testimony from McCann's son[/h]
[h=3]Bret McCann expected take stand today at trial of man accused of killing his parents[/h]
[h=1]Travis Vader murder trial to hear testimony from McCann's son[/h]
[h=3]Bret McCann expected take stand today at trial of man accused of killing his parents[/h]
This is interesting imo (from link in post #526)
There was a moment of confusion as Crown prosecutor Jim Stewart asked the court clerk to retrieve a specific piece of evidence from among the dozens of bags left in the jurors' box, and after a five-minute search she came up empty handed.
Prosecutors soon realized the piece of evidence, in this case the beer can they say had Vader's DNA on it, was still in possession of another RCMP investigator outside the courtroom, who is himself expected to testify later in the trial.
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/Vader-trial-delayed-by-car-trouble-20160313
Cops walk around with forensic evidence prior to a trial? Seriously? Must look up the frequency and protocol regarding that.
There was a moment of confusion as Crown prosecutor Jim Stewart asked the court clerk to retrieve a specific piece of evidence from among the dozens of bags left in the jurors' box, and after a five-minute search she came up empty handed.
Prosecutors soon realized the piece of evidence, in this case the beer can they say had Vader's DNA on it, was still in possession of another RCMP investigator outside the courtroom, who is himself expected to testify later in the trial.
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/Vader-trial-delayed-by-car-trouble-20160313
Cops walk around with forensic evidence prior to a trial? Seriously? Must look up the frequency and protocol regarding that.
The first relevant article found so far is -
The Crown has to show that the item offered to the jury in court is the same original item from the crime scene and has not been contaminated or tampered with, unless the defence admits continuity. The police officer who finds the object becomes a witness who testifies on how the object was discovered and collected. There must also be a documented continuous chain of possession of the physical evidence.
http://www.lawconnection.ca/content/evidence-and-forensics-backgrounder
Still not getting why LE would submit an item (in this case a beer can) for DNA evidence and or fingerprints then give it back to the cop who found it - or whatever cop.
Why? Why not give it to the Crown to bring to court or have the scientist giving evidence on it bring it to court?
Questioning what seems to be one of, or the most important forensic pieces of evidence in this case. It then gets passed around? Just surprised at this - never heard it before.
The Crown has to show that the item offered to the jury in court is the same original item from the crime scene and has not been contaminated or tampered with, unless the defence admits continuity. The police officer who finds the object becomes a witness who testifies on how the object was discovered and collected. There must also be a documented continuous chain of possession of the physical evidence.
http://www.lawconnection.ca/content/evidence-and-forensics-backgrounder
Still not getting why LE would submit an item (in this case a beer can) for DNA evidence and or fingerprints then give it back to the cop who found it - or whatever cop.
Why? Why not give it to the Crown to bring to court or have the scientist giving evidence on it bring it to court?
Questioning what seems to be one of, or the most important forensic pieces of evidence in this case. It then gets passed around? Just surprised at this - never heard it before.
Not having any luck so far in finding written protocols on the transport of forensic evidence to court in Canada.
Did spot this this morning though - the article itself is unrelated - other than one line -
On September 18, 2014 a server failed in a Dorchester, Que. data centre, resulted in some corruption of data needed for an investigative disclosure package.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-it-shared-services-canada-1.3492640
To me, that translates into the RCMP have an on-line method for disclosure - a way to gather and communicate evidence. Of course someone needs to type or scan docs into this program.
All that does is bring me back to why were 5,000 docs left in envelopes with a lab in 2014, bringing Vader's first trial to a halt.
Then there is this course available - designed by the RCMP -
Introduction to Disclosure
Course Category: Investigations
Introduction to Disclosure
This course was developed by the RCMP and has been made available to a national police audience via CPKN.
The failure to properly disclose information during a case can have serious consequences. Apart from squandered resources and compromised investigations, improper disclosure can result in wrongful convictions, unpunished crimes, law suits, and potential danger to witnesses.
Introduction to Disclosure examines the importance of providing full, frank and fair disclosure in a professional and timely manner. By explaining various exemptions from disclosure, and identifying best practices, this course will provide you with practical guidelines for successfully managing disclosure.
http://www.cpkn.ca/course_disclosure
So imo, best practices are well known to the RCMP, as they should be.
Apologies if anyone finds this area of questioning/scrutiny to be rambling - just don't get what the RCMP and the Crown have done with this case to date - appears unusual and outside the norm to me.
Did spot this this morning though - the article itself is unrelated - other than one line -
On September 18, 2014 a server failed in a Dorchester, Que. data centre, resulted in some corruption of data needed for an investigative disclosure package.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-it-shared-services-canada-1.3492640
To me, that translates into the RCMP have an on-line method for disclosure - a way to gather and communicate evidence. Of course someone needs to type or scan docs into this program.
All that does is bring me back to why were 5,000 docs left in envelopes with a lab in 2014, bringing Vader's first trial to a halt.
Then there is this course available - designed by the RCMP -
Introduction to Disclosure
Course Category: Investigations
Introduction to Disclosure
This course was developed by the RCMP and has been made available to a national police audience via CPKN.
The failure to properly disclose information during a case can have serious consequences. Apart from squandered resources and compromised investigations, improper disclosure can result in wrongful convictions, unpunished crimes, law suits, and potential danger to witnesses.
Introduction to Disclosure examines the importance of providing full, frank and fair disclosure in a professional and timely manner. By explaining various exemptions from disclosure, and identifying best practices, this course will provide you with practical guidelines for successfully managing disclosure.
http://www.cpkn.ca/course_disclosure
So imo, best practices are well known to the RCMP, as they should be.
Apologies if anyone finds this area of questioning/scrutiny to be rambling - just don't get what the RCMP and the Crown have done with this case to date - appears unusual and outside the norm to me.
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/arti...ording-made-to-Vader-at-RCMP-request-20160316
Mary-Ann McCann
Wednesday morning finished with Bret’s wife Mary-Ann McCann taking the stand.
Stewart established the relationship between the McCanns and their daughter-in-law was a very close one.
Mary-Ann McCann
Wednesday morning finished with Bret’s wife Mary-Ann McCann taking the stand.
Stewart established the relationship between the McCanns and their daughter-in-law was a very close one.
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/arti...317?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
The caretaker of the Minnow Lake Campground testified he saw Lyle and Marie McCann’s motorhome the day it was found burned a kilometre away.
The caretaker of the Minnow Lake Campground testified he saw Lyle and Marie McCann’s motorhome the day it was found burned a kilometre away.
Wondergirl
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Thank-you for posting this excellent article that's full of information. Marie's sister charmed all.
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/Beresh-raises-concerns-crimescene-security-20160319
Lyle and Marie McCanns' burned motorhome not secured following fire
I can't understand why the RCMP would not wonder why a older couple's motorhome would be on fire in the bush. Somebody drop the ball on this one. Enough the neighbour would of been able to help them.
Lyle and Marie McCanns' burned motorhome not secured following fire
I can't understand why the RCMP would not wonder why a older couple's motorhome would be on fire in the bush. Somebody drop the ball on this one. Enough the neighbour would of been able to help them.
There appears to be quite a lot of missteps by the RCMP on this case IMO.
A pretty good photo of how the inside of the McCann's SUV was found. Not seeing a beer can in the cup holder between the seats - maybe someone else is able to spot it?
http://globalnews.ca/news/2591750/t...uses-on-stolen-truck-containing-mccanns-keys/
I did see another pic of the inside of the SUV within the last week or so, taken from the drivers side open door, where the top of a can is visible, but not what the can was - beer, soft drink etc.
Post #528 talks about the Crown thinking they had a beer can in court with TV's DNA - a beer can taken from the cup holder in the burned out SUV. The Crown looked for it among their evidence, but it turned out it's with a cop who will testify later in the trial. Have not seen that testimony yet. Unsure why the Crown did not retrieve that can yet and enter into evidence, since they wanted to do that back on 12 March 2016.
Fwiw, don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about that beer.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2591750/t...uses-on-stolen-truck-containing-mccanns-keys/
I did see another pic of the inside of the SUV within the last week or so, taken from the drivers side open door, where the top of a can is visible, but not what the can was - beer, soft drink etc.
Post #528 talks about the Crown thinking they had a beer can in court with TV's DNA - a beer can taken from the cup holder in the burned out SUV. The Crown looked for it among their evidence, but it turned out it's with a cop who will testify later in the trial. Have not seen that testimony yet. Unsure why the Crown did not retrieve that can yet and enter into evidence, since they wanted to do that back on 12 March 2016.
Fwiw, don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about that beer.
The same article as above, talks about a stolen pickup truck that was found in a salvage yard with the McCann's key for their SUV.
During the Crown’s opening statements of the trial, court heard that the McCanns’ SUV keys were found in the bed of the stolen truck.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2591750/t...uses-on-stolen-truck-containing-mccanns-keys/
I don't see an explanation though on how the RCMP knew to look for the McCann's key in that truck.
From TV's sister in July 2010 -
The sister of a man RCMP have questioned about the disappearance of an Alberta couple says he showed up at her Edmonton home "tired and sick" the day after Lyle and Marie McCann vanished.
...
"He was tired and he was sick and he needed to rest," the sister said. "Travis has been running from the police for a while."
...
Mr. Vader stayed with the women until July 9, she said. Although he drove up in a vehicle, his sister said it wasn't an SUV.
...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ter-day-after-couple-vanished/article1388265/
So where was the SUV at that time?
During the Crown’s opening statements of the trial, court heard that the McCanns’ SUV keys were found in the bed of the stolen truck.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2591750/t...uses-on-stolen-truck-containing-mccanns-keys/
I don't see an explanation though on how the RCMP knew to look for the McCann's key in that truck.
From TV's sister in July 2010 -
The sister of a man RCMP have questioned about the disappearance of an Alberta couple says he showed up at her Edmonton home "tired and sick" the day after Lyle and Marie McCann vanished.
...
"He was tired and he was sick and he needed to rest," the sister said. "Travis has been running from the police for a while."
...
Mr. Vader stayed with the women until July 9, she said. Although he drove up in a vehicle, his sister said it wasn't an SUV.
...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ter-day-after-couple-vanished/article1388265/
So where was the SUV at that time?
In other testimony -
A friend of Travis Vader’s told police the accused killer told him he had stolen an SUV belonging to a missing and presumed murdered elderly St. Albert couple, but did not kill them.
However, William Nikolyuk testified Wednesday at Vader’s first-degree murder trial that he had lied to police when he said that.
When pressed by the prosecutor as to why he would lie to police with a statement that would get his friend in trouble, Nikolyuk said he did it to get police “off my back” as he wanted to attend a friend’s funeral and didn’t want police to stop him from going.
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/cri...er-claimed-to-have-stolen-missing-couples-suv
Nikolyuk said he felt pressure to tell police what they wanted to hear, or else they wouldn't let him attend his girlfriend's funeral.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...the-wrong-vehicle-at-the-wrong-time-1.3505092
A friend of Travis Vader’s told police the accused killer told him he had stolen an SUV belonging to a missing and presumed murdered elderly St. Albert couple, but did not kill them.
However, William Nikolyuk testified Wednesday at Vader’s first-degree murder trial that he had lied to police when he said that.
When pressed by the prosecutor as to why he would lie to police with a statement that would get his friend in trouble, Nikolyuk said he did it to get police “off my back” as he wanted to attend a friend’s funeral and didn’t want police to stop him from going.
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/cri...er-claimed-to-have-stolen-missing-couples-suv
Nikolyuk said he felt pressure to tell police what they wanted to hear, or else they wouldn't let him attend his girlfriend's funeral.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...the-wrong-vehicle-at-the-wrong-time-1.3505092
On Tuesday Saddleback-Sexsmith testified she thought Vader was already wanted by the RCMP in the disappearance of the McCanns when she saw him on July 4.
But the McCanns were last seen alive on July 3 and not reported missing until July 10.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ssible-motive-for-murder-of-mccanns-1.3503389
But the McCanns were last seen alive on July 3 and not reported missing until July 10.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ssible-motive-for-murder-of-mccanns-1.3503389
How does someone get a couple, or anyone, driving a motorhome and towing a vehicle to pull over?
Hitchhiking? Would the McCann's pick-up a hitchhiker?
Standing on a highway beside a broken down vehicle? Was a vehicle towed from anywhere along the supposed route of the McCann's?
Could someone have already been in the motorhome when the McCann's gassed up? Someone stepped inside the motorhome at the gas station - not caught on camera? Someone the McCann's knew?
Beginning to wonder if the McCann's were overpowered long before Peers and or Edson, Alberta.
Hitchhiking? Would the McCann's pick-up a hitchhiker?
Standing on a highway beside a broken down vehicle? Was a vehicle towed from anywhere along the supposed route of the McCann's?
Could someone have already been in the motorhome when the McCann's gassed up? Someone stepped inside the motorhome at the gas station - not caught on camera? Someone the McCann's knew?
Beginning to wonder if the McCann's were overpowered long before Peers and or Edson, Alberta.