The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[Frigga]

He graduated from college. He's held a job in the computer industry for years. He has the same beautiful, successful girlfriemd for years. Seems okay to me

You have pretty low and simplistic standards for proving someone to be a-okay.

Ted Bundy was charming and successful with a beautiful intelligent girlfriend- he never harmed her either.

If graduating from college, working at a job remotely (Dr Phil said he always works from home) and having a beautiful, successful girlfriend for years are ALL you need to prove someone mentally or emotionally healthy, normal or "ok" then I'm not sure being a social worker is an appropriate position for you.

 

[ThinkHard]

By all accounts, JBR was a social, outgoing child with a full schedule--school, dance lessons, pageant lessons, frequent play dates, church, etc. I find it hard to believe that she could have had that level of compulsion to masturbate and not one single person noticed.

The girl I was referencing was 4 going on 5 at the time. She too had a full schedule of activities including dance, gymnastics, and soccer....and she had friends and peers she played with. She was outgoing, highly intelligent, attractive, funny, and engaging. Her masterbation issues did not define her.

Children in the class witnessed some of these behaviors but never spoke to her or us about it, ever. Even as teachers it was a very sensitive subject and we treaded carefully.

What we did work on her with regarding this, was recognizing when she was stressed and finding a private place to calm herself, such as the bathroom. We told her much like using the bathroom, or changing your clothes, some things were meant to take place in private. We also gave her a secluded spot for her rest mat at nap time. There were marked improvements in when and where she chose to touch herself....and I'd imagine those self control aspects continued to improve with further maturity.

JBR was 6, so more mature then the girl in my glass and IF she had sensory issues that led to such actions, I believe it's possible it very well could have gone unnoticed....I highly doubt it would have been something, had it been going on that PR would have allowed JBR to do in public. And any one close enough to the family to be aware of this.....likely would say nothing, as like I mentioned it's a very very sensitive and awkward topic. It is disturbing to watch a child in such an act.

 

[Magdalyn]

1/1/95: Chickenpox. Rash even appears in vaginal area. Recommended Avino, Benadryl and Lanocaine. (why is this specially noted?)


http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/chicken-pox.html

Chickenpox causes a red, itchy skin rash that usually appears first on the abdomen or back and face, and then spreads to almost everywhere else on the body, including the scalp, mouth, arms, legs, and genitals.

Right. I meant....if they often get spread to the genitals, why specifically note it?

Years ago, before the vaccine, you just knew what it was (because it was going around school or your sibling had it) and stayed home from school and applied calamine lotion and felt crappy.

Both my kids had the vaccine. Despite that, my son caught a mild case. The doctor looked it him while he was still wearing his clothes and said, "Yup! Chicken Pox. He can go back to daycare after the last one crusts over. Benedryl, Aveeno, Caladryl...." He didn't look inside his pull-ups to determine if he "even had it in his penile area".

This poor child had a disturbing number of issues and at her vaginal area in just six years of life....

 

[TheOtherChristina]

Right. I meant....if they often get spread to the genitals, why specifically note it?

Years ago, before the vaccine, you just knew what it was (because it was going around school or your sibling had it) and stayed home from school and applied calamine lotion and felt crappy.

Both my kids had the vaccine. Despite that, my son caught a mild case. The doctor looked it him while he was still wearing his clothes and said, "Yup! Chicken Pox. He can go back to daycare after the last one crusts over. Benedryl, Aveeno, Caladryl...." He didn't look inside his pull-ups to determine if he "even had it in his penile area".

This poor child had a disturbing number of issues and at her vaginal area in just six years of life....

I agree, that stood out to me as well. I wondered if there was some missing context to that list -- could he have been asked specifically about opportunities to notice possible abuse? If not, I do question why that notation was included. I noticed that Dr. Beuf testified before the grand jury; I wonder if he was able (or compelled to?) release additional information in his testimony that contributed to the return of the true bill.

 

[Magdalyn]

My apologies if you mentioned it, but I was assuming you were referring to a college course, which is why I assumed the level of logic would have been higher and more thoroughly scrutinized.

Lol, no he's still a slightly logic impaired male teenager like his peers. :laughing: :toast:

 

[ThinkHard]

The pineapple was in her small intestine. There is no way of knowing when it was there or how long it was there. If the ME knew, he would say.

They cannot tell how long it's been in there, they can tell how close to her death it would have been consumed though, not an exact number but a window.

It would take 20-30 minutes for the pineapple to mix with digestive enzymes in the stomach, at which time chemical signals are sent that it is ready for the next oath of digestion, and enzymes are released from the pancreas and the stomach begins to release food into the sm intestines. For a full meal it can take up to 6 hours for the stomach to empty completely but most of the contents are out of the stomach by 2.5 hours. Some people have delayed gastric emptying though and some have rapid emptying, so it varies.

Given JBR likely only had a bite or two, her stomach would have fully emptied quickly after the 20-30minutes it took for the stomach to churn the contents. And since the pineapple was in the first part of her small intestines, it's highly likely she was killed within 30-60 minutes of consuming that fruit.

 

[PositiveLight]

I see what you're talking about but remember this pic is from a magazine/tabloid. If not kept in pristine condition, these pages can get marks. For all we know, that mark could be from a drop of soda or even the person holding the pic in that spot too long.



Also take into consideration that Patsy supposedly had no sex drive dur to everything she went through during her cancer ordeal. It wouldn't rule out JOhn though but IMO this crime doesn't come across as some boiling bunnies, fatal attraction crime.

Would Patsy write a note for a rival that boils bunnies? Doubtful.



Not directed at me but what's so questionable about his responses there?

Dave is PDI through and through. He also has a unique posting style(which I like). A hint of sarcasm, a hint of humor when it calls for it, also good at easing a tense debate among members, and can jump right into a long, complex debate at the drop of a hat. Very well known here and well liked and rightfully so.

I have yet to order his book. I read and reread a lot of books on this case earlier this year and started to get burnt out before I got around to his. After I read Woodward's book maybe I'll take the plunge. It gets mixed reviews but hell most books do.



Always been controversial even though many experts agree there was and some like Arndt who witnessed the autopsy believe she was. I'm no big fan of Arndt but since she said looking at the damage to JOnbenet's genitals was shocking, I'll take her word for it.

CBS claiming she wasn't threw many for a loop, including me. They needed to back that up with a bit more evidence IMO.


I don't think he assaulted her either. Anything going on between those two(such as the incident under the blanket) I would place in the "playing doctor" category.

Experts cant even agree on who murdered her. Experts cant agree on who wrote the note. Uncertainty is no reason to gloss over certain aspects of the case. IDI docs pulled that stunt for years. It used to infuriate many sleuths. I'm not giving it a free pass for using the same tactic just because its a RDI show.

I do realize there are time constraints for any show covering this case. You could never fit in all the evidence into a documentary. Some things would have to be left out but abuse/sexual assault is something that should always be addressed.


Considering the fact many experts believe she was being sexually abused, Caroline is not at odds with "every single expert on the case".

We're entering territory where everything mentioned on that one show is somehow gospel. Many people have followed this case for years and know a lot more about the case than what little was addressed by CBS. JUst because CBS said something or failed to say something doesn't mean everything we know about the case was swallowed up by some black hole.


Mary never claimed kids don't injure themselves playing outside. No need to build up straw men here.

Instead of constantly disagreeing with everything people say here maybe you should do some more reading on the case. There are many intelligent posters here who have debated the issue of abuse for years and they're not just pulling it out of thin air.


You're doing it again.

Hell, the woman who actually took the photograph pointed it out years ago. LIke I said, just because it wasn't mentioned in a TV show you watched doesn't mean its a supposition "not backed up by a single person on this case".

No......that's the only reason you know of him.


INteresting observation.

I'd like to see this bruise/injury/ringworm from a different POV.


Obviously its natural to trust what a doctor says but I wouldn't consider this guy a picture of integrity. He was there that morning doping up Patsy with enough benzos to down an elephant. He's JOnbenet's pediatrician......its not his place to be doing that. Patsy has her own doctor. Why is he there so early in the timeline? I mean other than to heavily sedate Patsy. His client is dead in the wine cellar even if he thinks she is kidnapped. His services as a doctor for Jonbenet are not required.

Does your child's pediatrician hand you mothers little helpers whenever you need them? If not, would you trust your child's pediatrician if you knew he handed adults medication like candy? I'd imagine not.


I think too big an issue is made of WC footprints. LIke you said, everyone and their grandma had been down there those few days. Berserker asked if Patsy's footprints are down there. Are Fleet's? He'd been in there the 23rd and 26th. Are John's? How about Pugh's family who got the Christmas trees out of the WC? How about the footprints of others at that party?

IMO footprints in the WC are not some smoking gun no matter whose prints were identified.


Wow. You seriously don't know the difference between your dentist prescribing you meds for your cold sore and a child's pediatrician prescribing their mother who is not a patient a schedule IV medication. Unreal.

Yeah and over the years when people were digging for pics showing these marks, the marks only showed up in pagaent photos.


YOu know who prescribed the meds. You keep saying its ok.

It doesn't matter if he treated the Ramseys for generations, it is not his place to be giving Patsy medication in that setting. Patsy has a doctor. Instead of calling him/her, she calls JOnbenet's doctor. Even though you think its normal, its far from normal for a child's doctor to make a house call and give that child's parent benzos. He also became her spokesperson and told BPD she was not going to speak to them. Its not his place to be making such decisions. This doctor got very lucky the investigation was botched and the FBI was cut loose because he would have had a lot of splainin' to do.

You were already told who did that and now you're immediately asking again who did it.

Are you trolling? Now I wish I hadn't wasted my time responding to your comments about her pediatrician. You don't seem to care what anyone has to say anyways. No matter what anyone says, you simply say "there's no evidence whatsoever" or parrot a question you've asked that's already been answered.

A lot of your posts are insulting to many people here who have contributed a lot to this site. Someone can post info from many experts and they did it for other members to read/learn more about the JBR case and I know from experience this takes time. For you to just immediately jump all over that persons posts with generic, blanket statements acting like its nothing is insulting.


Click on the persons profile and on the left hand side there is an 'ignore user' option and their posts will no longer show up in threads.




Thanks for finding that Zoriah. I am in the small group that believe she was being drugged in certain situations, mainly in various pageant and modeling pics.


I have four people blocked. I only see their posts if someone quotes them which thankfully isn't very often.


The basement sequence IMO is one of the key pieces of the overall puzzle and the case might be able to be solved if this sequence could be unraveled. I was hoping the CBS show would go in depth on this issue. Its my biggest disappointment about the show. I always had issues with it as red flags are waving all over the place during that sequence. KOlar did a great job talking about it in his book and it deserved to be acknowledged on a show that millions of people who do not know as much as we do about the case to give them a different perspective on what they have been fed all these years(mainly IDI docs).


If memory serves me correctly, neither cigar box was wrapped. One box John admits to owning yet multiple times he attempts to distance himself from the other box. When these are brought up in Patsy's interviews, she has the collossal gall to lie and say neither of them smoke even though people saw Patsy smoke cigars at her birthday party.

IMO the cigar box they try to distance themselves from in the wine cellar contains something other than cigars. THis is also the box that Fleet touched on his last trip to the wine cellar(along with the piece of tape). Something about it must have stood out to him as well.

To believe John that the second box isn't his and he doesn't smoke that brand would mean an intruder brought his/her own box of cigars and forgot to take them when he/she left. Obviously that is preposterous.


Some of these various oddities in the basement and wine cellar are the main reason some believed Fleet was the killer or at least an accessory. I don't believe that to be the case. He is just a crucial witness in that sequence and I wish the corrupt DA had treated him with at least an ounce of dignity and respect and maybe Fleet could have actually helped them solve this mystery. How he was treated is deplorable and I hope someday he speaks publicly about his ordeal.

Yeah that's all I could find was pageant photos with the marking. I will try to dig further though and see what I can find. I honestly think she was on some sort of medication in that photo with her pupils dilated. I did find this info on Benadryl. Which she could very well have been on considering the fact she had a lot of sinus issues.
Look at the adverse effects- dilated pupils. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine#Adverse_effects
I also feel the basement timeline is critical too. I think that is possibly why Fleet and John fell out. Fleet knew something wasn't right about that. He was one that I feel would have been an excellent witness if they had handled him better.

 

[Magdalyn]

Is the medication for specific areas?

Aveeno cream?

Lanacane?

As an unverified (!) OTC consumer, Aveeno is soothing. Might help with itching. Lanacane has temporary numbing properties. Benedryl is oral medication. Antihistimine? My mom put Caladryl on me for my chickenpox. I think it helped with the itching and helped dry the pox out faster. It was pink and smelled funny and dried making your skin feel tight. Ugh.

 

[ThinkHard]

I find the dilated pupils odd too. I wonder if it is from a medication perhaps? Thank you for the photo! she was such a beautiful child.

Cold medicine perhaps? Or allergy meds? Something with pseudo ephedrine maybe? That can wire you.

Btw, you know on toddlers and tiaras how you always see the kids being given energy drinks and what not ..... Wondering if something like that was going on here.

 

[Tadpole12]

ty

calamine lotion and mom yelling at ya, "Don't scratch',
back in the day......

 

[ThinkHard]

He graduated from college. He's held a job in the computer industry for years. He has the same beautiful, successful girlfriemd for years. Seems okay to me

And how many serial killers have had apparently normal lives by those same standards?

Nothing about Burkes demeanor is normal and for someone who claims to be a SW in the field of abuse and neglect, I think that would be abundantly apparent to you.

 

[PositiveLight]

Right. I meant....if they often get spread to the genitals, why specifically note it?

Years ago, before the vaccine, you just knew what it was (because it was going around school or your sibling had it) and stayed home from school and applied calamine lotion and felt crappy.

Both my kids had the vaccine. Despite that, my son caught a mild case. The doctor looked it him while he was still wearing his clothes and said, "Yup! Chicken Pox. He can go back to daycare after the last one crusts over. Benedryl, Aveeno, Caladryl...." He didn't look inside his pull-ups to determine if he "even had it in his penile area".

This poor child had a disturbing number of issues and at her vaginal area in just six years of life....

I totally agree with BBM.
My daughter caught the chicken pox when she was 11 months old. They were horrible in her diaper area. We had to leave her diaper off due to the wounds getting infected from constant wet diapers. (Imagine chasing an 11 month old who was crawling everywhere trying to catch them before they had an accident. :scared: ) Thanks for the laugh though because I had forgotten that memory till I read this! Looking back at that memory it's making me laugh at myself! ANYWAY! Maybe due to her still having potty issues the same thing happened to her causing wounds? Otherwise he had no reason to point it out in his notes because it's expected there. That doc is strange as hell. :notgood:

 

[HarmonyE.]

And how many serial killers have had apparently normal lives by those same standards?

Nothing about Burkes demeanor is normal and for someone who claims to be a SW in the field of abuse and neglect, I think that would be abundantly apparent to you.

And historically speaking, most who murder as children do not grow up to be adult murderers.

 

[Me66]

Re the dilated pupils in that pic. How good was photoshop (or similar) back then? This is clearly a professional pic for pageant purposes. Dilated pupils are accepted as "more attractive". I can see PR using any means at her disposal to increase the chances of winning and from my intermittent viewing of Toddlers and Tiaras, it seems that many pageants have a "Best Photo" category. Was it possible to increase the pupil size with the technology of the day?

 

[ThinkHard]

16 TRIP DEMUTH: That is why we asked you, you

17 fed them pancakes in the morning.

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Late morning.

19 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you have fed them

20 pineapple with the pancakes?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I am aware. Not that

22 I can remember. They don't go together. You wouldn't

23 have pineapple with pancakes.

24 TRIP DEMUTH: I wouldn't, but we need to ask.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

0490

1 TRIP DEMUTH: So no pineapple with the

2 pancakes in the morning, right?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember when I

4 had pineapple in the house.

5 TRIP DEMUTH: Want you to move through the

6 day.

7 PATSY RAMSEY: I am trying to remember.

8 TRIP DEMUTH: Take your time.

9 When you are wrapping presents and what have

10 you, getting things ready, and JonBenet is riding her

11 bike some a little bit.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she rode her bike. We

13 were out there when she was riding her bike.

14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. There is a time when

15 John goes to the airport; right?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

17 TRIP DEMUTH: And the kids were playing with

18 their toys and what have you, right, and lunch.

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember lunch.

20 TRIP DEMUTH: I think you said earlier that

21 you may not have had lunch because there was an --

22 PATSY RAMSEY: I had breakfast.

23 TRIP DEMUTH: How late was the breakfast?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember exactly, but

25 probably 10:00, 11:00.

0491

1 TRIP DEMUTH: That is what you mean by a late

2 breakfast, okay. How about, you go to the White's what

3 time, approximately?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right after, like 4:00,

5 5:00ish, so we could have very easily skipped lunch.

...
16 TRIP DEMUTH: What about before breakfast,

17 did you have any -- I don't know if you all had snacks

18 while you are opening presents.

19 PATSY RAMSEY: No. We had coffee, and the

20 kids don't care about eating. They just want to dig

21 in.

22 TRIP DEMUTH: That would be my experience as

23 well. So there was no pineapple served before

24 breakfast?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

0493

1 TRIP DEMUTH: And then Christmas Eve, going

2 backwards.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Christmas Eve, oh, Christmas

4 Eve we went to church and we went to Pasta Jay's.

5 TRIP DEMUTH: So spaghetti.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. No pineapple.

7 TRIP DEMUTH: After you came home from Pasta

8 Jay's.

9 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, you know, the

10 kids were full after Pasta Jay's.

----------

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I did not feed

14 JonBenet pineapple, so I don't know how it got in her

15 stomach. I don't know where this bowl of pineapple

16 came from. I can't recall putting that there. I can

17 never recall putting a tea bag like that in a cup, so I

18 don't know. I don't know the answer.

----

How is 4 or 5 considered right after breakfast, when she stated they at breakfast at 10 or 11? I don't consider 5-7 hrs later, right after. Is that just me?

And what's so weird about pancakes and pineapple anyway? How do they not go together? Actually it's delicious! (Sorry I know that's OT)

 

[PositiveLight]

ty

calamine lotion and mom yelling at ya, "Don't scratch',
back in the day......

:laughing:
I remember my mama yelling that at me as i scrubbed my body on the carpet and screamed back "I'm not scratching!"
At least I wasn't scratching with my fingers hahaha!

 

[chlban]

He graduated from college. He's held a job in the computer industry for years. He has the same beautiful, successful girlfriemd for years. Seems okay to me

You just perfectly described Ted Bundy before he was caught.

 

[PositiveLight]

How is 4 or 5 considered right after breakfast, when she stated they at breakfast at 10 or 11? I don't consider 5-7 hrs later, right after. Is that just me?

And what's so weird about pancakes and pineapple anyway? How do they not go together? Actually it's delicious! (Sorry I know that's OT)

I had the same thought! Pineapple and pancakes are yummy! Heck they probably sell them at IHOP that way as an option!

 

[ThinkHard]

Ah shoot, DFF,
I can barely make out 'the doll',
and I can't really see the comparison wrt to wrapping paper.
Would like to..

Look at where the red is on the last picture you can see the shape of something white on it.....it is the shape of the rocking horse on the FAO Schwartz wrapping paper....compare it to a clearer picture of the wrapping paper and focus on the red squares. I'd do I side by side for you and circle it but my iPad is being glitchy and that's too advanced for it to handle right now.

 

[PositiveLight]

Re the dilated pupils in that pic. How good was photoshop (or similar) back then? This is clearly a professional pic for pageant purposes. Dilated pupils are accepted as "more attractive". I can see PR using any means at her disposal to increase the chances of winning and from my intermittent viewing of Toddlers and Tiaras, it seems that many pageants have a "Best Photo" category. Was it possible to increase the pupil size with the technology of the day?

Nothing would surprise me with that family at this point. Which made me also wonder if it was done more recently as photoshop and all that kind if stuff has gotten better. Maybe we could compare it to older versions to see if it changed? The bigger pupils do make her look more doll like in a way. Maybe it's just newer doctoring of the photo.