The December 23 party

[ukrberserker23]

Well, I meant did anyone know if JBR was crying, and not feeling pretty, before the call on the 23rd? Or after. I think she might have called them. Crying because something happened to her, or crying because adults sent the police away? Maybe both.

 

[zencompass]

Great points Charliegirl610 !

 

[BoldBear]

The timing thing has been one big blur from the very beginning. Unable to say what time they got home on Xmas night, unable to say what time they all went to bed. Patsy claimed she woke up on the 26th between 5:30-6:00AM, took 20-30 minutes to put on "yesterdays" clothes, makeup, hair and then started down the stairs to make coffee. Ahem, you are scheduled to fly out at 7AM to meet people, it's a 30 minute drive to the airport. You bet your bippy if her story was factual, she'd have made note of the time when she got up. You have little kids to waken and get out the door, not to mention all the last minute xmas gifts and bags to get together like she said. Anyone scheduled to fly out, watching the clock and coordinating their time to arrive for that flight on time.

It was a private flight. Some of the packages were already preloaded by John on Christmas day. The people they had to meet were family members. If the flight was running late, they would have had to wait. I've heard it said that one of the best things about owning your own plane is you get to decided when to depart. If they were late, the plane would have waited. I wouldn't have been too happy to be the pilot since I could have slept-in another hour.

30 minutes to the airport. It would have taken less time. In 1996 the day after Christmas, there would have been very little traffic on the road. It wasn't a long drive from Boulder to this small airport. Had it been the Stapleton airport, they would have never made their flight in that time.

But yes, they were undoubtedly running so late that a 7:00 AM flight time was laughable, but not a surprise. The plane would have never left without them.

 

[TeaTime]

You won't be getting an answer from that poster, so I'll give you an answer.

TMK, Fleet has never answered (to the public anyway) whether or not he is the person who "misdialed" the 911 call on the evening of the 23rd. That account comes from only one source (I think): the Ramseys in their book (DOI). So is it any wonder that that poster took it as gospel? Here's what they wrote:

During the party Fleet White used our phone to make a series of calls, trying to get some medicine to his mother in a hospital in Aspen, Colorado. Apparently he dialed wrong and got 911. The police called back, but after checking with Fleet and the rest of the people in the house, Susan Stine informed them that the call was a mistake. The 911 call still remains somewhat of a mystery.

​

If you notice, that poster suggested that doubting the story was not believing White. Actually though, it's just not believing the account of proven liars.

Wait! I thought the police arrived at the house, not that someone called the house after the 911 hang-up. And, I think if FW made a mis-dial then the 911 all would not still remain "somewhat of a mystery."

These people!

 

[zencompass]

The timing thing has been one big blur from the very beginning. Unable to say what time they got home on Xmas night, unable to say what time they all went to bed. Patsy claimed she woke up on the 26th between 5:30-6:00AM, took 20-30 minutes to put on "yesterdays" clothes, makeup, hair and then started down the stairs to make coffee. Ahem, you are scheduled to fly out at 7AM to meet people, it's a 30 minute drive to the airport. You bet your bippy if her story was factual, she'd have made note of the time when she got up. You have little kids to waken and get out the door, not to mention all the last minute xmas gifts and bags to get together like she said. Anyone scheduled to fly out, watching the clock and coordinating their time to arrive for that flight on time.

I would have to get up at 4:00 a.m. to make the 7:00 a.m. flight. Getting the kids dressed and fed breakfast, Christmas presents all out. No way could I have made
that flight if I had gotten up at 6:00 a.m. or thereabouts.

There must have been a reason to get to the cottage mid morning or just before lunch time. Maybe other family members from J.R.'s
family had plans for the afternoon ? There must have been a reason he scheduled it for 7 a.m.

Seems to be that J.R. in particular scheduled everything to run on time. Even though it is your own plane, there are other people waiting to meet you
at the local airport - plans have been made, food has been prepared for the day. Then there's the drive to the cottage from the airport.

Perhaps a large luncheon was planned for the family there. That might be
the only reason to get two young children up early the day after Christmas!

I will look back and see whether Patsy mentioned a big luncheon for the 26th at the cottage.

I agree Charliegirl610 - the times were a "blur" and they changed too! I know if I have to get up early I am well aware of what time I am finally
heading to bed (or a least what time the children went to bed).

As for the times - it was as if they did not want to nail down certain times in case they were contradicted. It was all so strange...

 

[otg]

Wait! I thought the police arrived at the house, not that someone called the house after the 911 hang-up. And, I think if FW made a mis-dial then the 911 all would not still remain "somewhat of a mystery."

These people!

That's what we all heard from other sources, but that's not the account given by the Ramseys.

 

[TexMex]

They were leaving early to meet up with John Andrew and Melinda in Minneapolis around 10:30am then on to the lake


The next morning he left his mother's house with Melinda, who had come there to pick him up. Together they boarded a flight to Minneapolis at 8:36 A.M. local time. (Schiller, 1999a:67).

 

[SandyQLS]

The timing thing has been one big blur from the very beginning. Unable to say what time they got home on Xmas night, unable to say what time they all went to bed. Patsy claimed she woke up on the 26th between 5:30-6:00AM, took 20-30 minutes to put on "yesterdays" clothes, makeup, hair and then started down the stairs to make coffee. Ahem, you are scheduled to fly out at 7AM to meet people, it's a 30 minute drive to the airport. You bet your bippy if her story was factual, she'd have made note of the time when she got up. You have little kids to waken and get out the door, not to mention all the last minute xmas gifts and bags to get together like she said. Anyone scheduled to fly out, watching the clock and coordinating their time to arrive for that flight on time.

PR claimed not to have used an alarm clock to awaken. PR claims she went down to the 1st floor to make coffee on this hectic morning - bypassing the opportunity to awaken both children while she was on the 2nd floor? GMAB she was going all the way from the 3rd floor to 1st floor then back up to 2nd floor on a rushed morning? Wrapped presents had yet to be retrieved from the basement and brought upstairs to where (one of the variable places) the packed bags were stacked on the 1st floor. Two children need to get out of bed, cleanup and dress - and at least JBR may have needed extra cleanup due to bedwetting and also help dressing. It was winter and there was frost on the ground, the car would need to be warmed up for 5 minutes and even in no traffic there was the potential for ice on the roads in the early AM so it's a morning for unrushed, slow driving with children in the car. As for the plane, private or not, it would need preflight de-icing and prep so schedule time is important?

Did PR oddly wear the same clothes that morning because she and JR believed they would be allowed to fly out allowing PR to remove her incriminating clothing to either Michigan or Georgia where the clothing could be lost or destroyed? Det. Arndt really failed there by allowing PR to create that dramatic act of wailing over JBR's body in the living room and transferring fibers, or was that PR's plan all along too in wearing those clothes again knowing no one would shove a grieving mother away from her dead child's body?

 

[FrankieB]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the way I remember the anecdote is that somebody called 911, didn't say anything and hung up. The operator called back and it went to the answering machine.

If it had been an accident (AKa Fleet dialing 411)

a) He would have said sorry I made a mistake instead of staying quiet and hanging up (IMO)

b) He would have answered the second call to explain it was a mistake, therefore sparing the cops from going to the house in person

c) He *might* have told the officers himself that he had made the call
for those three reasons I seriously doubt Fleet made the call by accident. Just a gut feeling tells me he had nothing to do with that call.

 

[BBB167893]

PR claimed not to have used an alarm clock to awaken. PR claims she went down to the 1st floor to make coffee on this hectic morning - bypassing the opportunity to awaken both children while she was on the 2nd floor? GMAB she was going all the way from the 3rd floor to 1st floor then back up to 2nd floor on a rushed morning? Wrapped presents had yet to be retrieved from the basement and brought upstairs to where (one of the variable places) the packed bags were stacked on the 1st floor. Two children need to get out of bed, cleanup and dress - and at least JBR may have needed extra cleanup due to bedwetting and also help dressing. It was winter and there was frost on the ground, the car would need to be warmed up for 5 minutes and even in no traffic there was the potential for ice on the roads in the early AM so it's a morning for unrushed, slow driving with children in the car. As for the plane, private or not, it would need preflight de-icing and prep so schedule time is important?

Did PR oddly wear the same clothes that morning because she and JR believed they would be allowed to fly out allowing PR to remove her incriminating clothing to either Michigan or Georgia where the clothing could be lost or destroyed? Det. Arndt really failed there by allowing PR to create that dramatic act of wailing over JBR's body in the living room and transferring fibers, or was that PR's plan all along too in wearing those clothes again knowing no one would shove a grieving mother away from her dead child's body?

SandyQLS, IMO you've put the pieces together quite well. I don't know if it was PR's plan, but it sure came in handy, didn't it?

More importantly, your demonstration shows what I've said for a long time now: their plan wouldn't work unless they "found" the note first. Nothing else could be out of place.

 

[DeDee]

PR claimed not to have used an alarm clock to awaken. PR claims she went down to the 1st floor to make coffee on this hectic morning - bypassing the opportunity to awaken both children while she was on the 2nd floor? GMAB she was going all the way from the 3rd floor to 1st floor then back up to 2nd floor on a rushed morning? Wrapped presents had yet to be retrieved from the basement and brought upstairs to where (one of the variable places) the packed bags were stacked on the 1st floor. Two children need to get out of bed, cleanup and dress - and at least JBR may have needed extra cleanup due to bedwetting and also help dressing. It was winter and there was frost on the ground, the car would need to be warmed up for 5 minutes and even in no traffic there was the potential for ice on the roads in the early AM so it's a morning for unrushed, slow driving with children in the car. As for the plane, private or not, it would need preflight de-icing and prep so schedule time is important?

Did PR oddly wear the same clothes that morning because she and JR believed they would be allowed to fly out allowing PR to remove her incriminating clothing to either Michigan or Georgia where the clothing could be lost or destroyed? Det. Arndt really failed there by allowing PR to create that dramatic act of wailing over JBR's body in the living room and transferring fibers, or was that PR's plan all along too in wearing those clothes again knowing no one would shove a grieving mother away from her dead child's body?

Yes, Ma'am, Sandy. You've got this.
JR wrapped some gifts for his older children that he loaded onto the airplane on Christmas Day.
JR was a multi-millionaire who stored his private jet in a hangar. Deicing was not an issue.
The 3 presents with torn wrapping paper in the basement were probably for Burke's bday [FAO Schwartz wrapping paper]. They were taken as evidence.
Patsy was using bags for their clothing to help keep the plane lightweight while traveling to MI.
PR stopped on the 2nd level on her way down the first time; not to awaken the children, but to work on a spot left on JBs clothing.
PR likely did cover her daughter's body for reasons she knows but also to spread/transfer her fibers, if she thought about it. Her sweater fibers on the duct tape were not exposed to PRs "Lazarus" scene since the tape was left in the WC with the white blanket.
PR/JR eventually sent their clothing to their attorney. It was after the clothing had been dry cleaned, iirc.

 

[BoldBear]

Denver and Boulder are actually on the plains. Cities in general have a 10 degree increase in temperature. People who are not from the Front Range often think that these cities have more issues with snow and ice than they actually have. We do get our snow storms and some winters are worse than others, but the streets are normally clear and ice free. Ice and snow come with storms, but roads icing is not normally an issue.

The Ramseys parked their cars in a garage that is connected to a home. There wouldn't be frost on the windows so they'd only need the car to run if they wanted it to be warm. I've lived in a home with an attached garage, and it was as simple as start and drive even in coldest temperatures.

The plane wasn't John's plane. He was the copilot. The pilot was an employee who would have been there ahead of the flight doing all the preflight. And as DeeDee noted, this would have been in a hanger.

As for people driving slower because they have children in the car...well, what's your experience with the highway? How often are you passing people driving 10 miles per hour slower in Jeep because they have kids in the car? People who drive 4by4s in winter often have an unrealistic sense of security. On the highway, people tend to drive at the speed of the existing traffic or they cause safety problems. I've driven that road many, many times. Even in the winter with a light dusting of snow, people are pushing the speed limit. The only thing that tends to slow them down is traffic congestion.

Realistically, the Ramseys expectation that day would have been to load up the car, immediately leave, drive the posted speed on the highway (or better because I know this road from experience) and have the plane leave as soon as it was loaded. They may have been running late leaving the house, but I'm not sure that they didn't already have an expectation of that. This was a private plane for a holiday trip. It wasn't a commercial flight. Had they been running late there would have been no consequences other than keeping John's other kids waiting for them.

We always have a laugh about North Carolina (because we have family out there). When they get 2 inches of snow on the ground, there's a run on the stores before the storm and all the businesses shut down. They don't know how to deal with the snow.

 

[Mee]

I also hate how they always refer to Jonbenet as "zonked". I know why they do it but it makes it no less frustrating.

It does sound an awfully lot like "conked" as in hit in the head. Maybe they were slipping.

 

[Heymom]

Denver and Boulder are actually on the plains. Cities in general have a 10 degree increase in temperature. People who are not from the Front Range often think that these cities have more issues with snow and ice than they actually have. We do get our snow storms and some winters are worse than others, but the streets are normally clear and ice free. Ice and snow come with storms, but roads icing is not normally an issue.

The Ramseys parked their cars in a garage that is connected to a home. There wouldn't be frost on the windows so they'd only need the car to run if they wanted it to be warm. I've lived in a home with an attached garage, and it was as simple as start and drive even in coldest temperatures.

The plane wasn't John's plane. He was the copilot. The pilot was an employee who would have been there ahead of the flight doing all the preflight. And as DeeDee noted, this would have been in a hanger.

As for people driving slower because they have children in the car...well, what's your experience with the highway? How often are you passing people driving 10 miles per hour slower in Jeep because they have kids in the car? People who drive 4by4s in winter often have an unrealistic sense of security. On the highway, people tend to drive at the speed of the existing traffic or they cause safety problems. I've driven that road many, many times. Even in the winter with a light dusting of snow, people are pushing the speed limit. The only thing that tends to slow them down is traffic congestion.

Realistically, the Ramseys expectation that day would have been to load up the car, immediately leave, drive the posted speed on the highway (or better because I know this road from experience) and have the plane leave as soon as it was loaded. They may have been running late leaving the house, but I'm not sure that they didn't already have an expectation of that. This was a private plane for a holiday trip. It wasn't a commercial flight. Had they been running late there would have been no consequences other than keeping John's other kids waiting for them.

We always have a laugh about North Carolina (because we have family out there). When they get 2 inches of snow on the ground, there's a run on the stores before the storm and all the businesses shut down. They don't know how to deal with the snow.

Except every once in a while, like in 1982....

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

But no one has stated clearly if this was before or after the police came to the door. Almost everything in this case lacks a verifiable time. All we can be sure of is when they got home that night, the scream heard by the neighbors at midnight, and the 911 call after 5 am the 26th. Nothing else can really be nailed down to a definite time. That is why this case drives everyone nuts.

Actually, we do have an approximate timeline for this incident. I don't recall the source but I'm fairly certain it was Janet McReynolds who reported the "don't feel pretty" comment. In PMPT (p102 hb) it says Bill and Janet McReynolds arrived at the Christmas party at 5pm (5:30 according to LHP on pg 182) and left about an hour and a half later, so 6:30 or 7. I can't find the source for this right now but I remember reading the call happened after the McReynoldses left, maybe with 15-30 minutes. So if my info is correct she had to make the comment before the call.

Edit: I just found this. The Associated Press said the 911 call happened at 6:48.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19970110&id=4pcyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=necFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5350,4896088&hl=en

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

You won't be getting an answer from that poster, so I'll give you an answer.

TMK, Fleet has never answered (to the public anyway) whether or not he is the person who "misdialed" the 911 call on the evening of the 23rd. That account comes from only one source (I think): the Ramseys in their book (DOI). So is it any wonder that that poster took it as gospel? Here's what they wrote:

During the party Fleet White used our phone to make a series of calls, trying to get some medicine to his mother in a hospital in Aspen, Colorado. Apparently he dialed wrong and got 911. The police called back, but after checking with Fleet and the rest of the people in the house, Susan Stine informed them that the call was a mistake. The 911 call still remains somewhat of a mystery.

​

If you notice, that poster suggested that doubting the story was not believing White. Actually though, it's just not believing the account of proven liars.

Thanks for that, otg. I was wondering where that story came from because I just read an early report with a different explanation.

Washington Post, 1-10-97
There were also reports yesterday that a 911 call was placed from the upscale Tudor home to the police emergency center several days before the murder. The connection ended before the dispatcher could talk to the caller. A police officer was sent to the home but left the scene within a few minutes without filing a report, according to records examined by the Associated Press.

A source close to the family said the 911 call was made by a "drunken guest" attending a Christmas party at the Ramsey house Dec. 23 and that no incident involving the family had occurred. The call, this person said, is "irrelevant."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...otlight/d6c8a126-2ce2-4224-857b-0096a8a1b03f/
I wonder who the "source" was.

 

[Heymom]

Thanks for that, otg. I was wondering where that story came from because I just read an early report with a different explanation.

Washington Post, 1-10-97
There were also reports yesterday that a 911 call was placed from the upscale Tudor home to the police emergency center several days before the murder. The connection ended before the dispatcher could talk to the caller. A police officer was sent to the home but left the scene within a few minutes without filing a report, according to records examined by the Associated Press.

A source close to the family said the 911 call was made by a "drunken guest" attending a Christmas party at the Ramsey house Dec. 23 and that no incident involving the family had occurred. The call, this person said, is "irrelevant."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...otlight/d6c8a126-2ce2-4224-857b-0096a8a1b03f/
I wonder who the "source" was.

Probably Susan Stine.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Haha, no lie, Susan Stine was my first thought too.

 

[Frigga]

What kind of a life have the Stines lived since JonBenet was murdered and they all became complicit? Anyone here know much?

 

[PositiveLight]

Question:
I'm very confused regarding something.
Did the Ramsey's have a house tour in 1996?
I was aware of the one in 1994.
The parents attempt to use the home tour as when someone possibly used the tour to figure out the layout of the home.
Would someone who had possibly wanted to kidnap JonBenet wait 2 whole years before doing it?
This excuse doesn't sit well with me for some reason. It's like they want people to think that there was a house tour in 1996 too. But
there wasn't as far as I know right?
There was the Christmas party on the 23rd.
also I found a few comments PR made in reference to the party regarding the wine cellar.

((((PR throwing others under the bus in regards to the wine cellar access. She doesn't put herself in that
list nor BR or JR))))
(0351-12) PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple boxes
of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd,
that party or some party we had, I remember somebody saying we are out of red wine. And I said please
(inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please go to the basement to get some more red wine,
but he would know where that was. (snip) (0352-06) TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. In the months prior to Christmas
of 1996 Fleet would have gone in there? PATSY RAMSEY: I would say Fleet, cleaning lady and --
TRIP DEMUTH: Maybe the husband? PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the husband and maybe the daughter."
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm