The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

(re. the garrote)

Sorry to drag up an earlier post but I had intended to reply to this and forgot about it.

Her hair was caught up in the knot.

Yes from it being used. But he still could have made the contraption prior.

 

[ThinkHard]

Then there was the birefringent properties to consider. Not sure if I have used that word correctly because it's a new one to me. It made me think of something like paint or varnish.

It wouldnt surprise me to learn that toilet paper during the manufacturing process is exposed to similar materials.

 

[Tortoise]

I was just looking at the WHO definition of dissocial personality disorder.

John displays all 6 on the list of 6.

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others - pointing the finger at former friends, not caring if they end up accused of this crime and having their lives forever tainted by suspicion.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations - refusing to assist LE
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships - having an affair that wrecked his marriage, despite describing his first wife as perfect
4. Very low tolerance to frustration - getting angry when he found out a man had shared a taxi with Patsy on her trip to New York, and kicking the kitchen door in anger
5. Incapacity to experience guilt - doesn't require an explanation
6. Marked readiness to blame others - doesn't require an explanation.

He seems to have slipped under the radar with his superficial charm.

 

[rojamom]

Now that the dust has settled a bit from all the recent programs about JonBenet, I’ve had some time to reflect on my theories. I still believe BR was responsible for the head blow, and I still believe the parents covered it up. But I remain conflicted about what parts of the crime were staged, who did what, and who knew what and when they knew. Things that continue to puzzle me about this case:

1. BR’s Account of PR Waking Him Up That Morning “Acting Psycho”
In one of the early taped interviews, BR says it was his mother who first woke him up the morning of Dec. 26. He says she rushed into his room, flipped on the lights, and was frantically asking “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” Later on DrP, he says he can’t remember if she turned on the lights or not, but he reiterates the same basic story that she was the first one to wake him up and that she was frantic.

If BR is telling the truth, my question is – who is this “performance” for? If BR is the one who hit JBR over the head (and I think he was), and PR wrote the note (and I think she did), and both JR and PR did the staging together, then why is PR beginning her macabre acting performance before anyone has arrived at the house yet? That’s like starting the play while the curtain is still down and there’s no one in the audience yet.

So that makes me wonder – was JR still “in the dark” about everything at that point and this “performance” by PR was her attempt to convince *him* that a kidnapping had occurred? Or – was the plan to try to ease BR’s guilt somehow and make him think that he didn’t really kill JBR after all, but that some “bad men” crept into the house AFTER BR hit her so THEY are the ones that are really responsible?

Or is BR lying about these early morning events? If that is the case, then he was already quite calculating at a young age or very carefully coached prior to the early taped interviews.

Is this bugging anyone else? I would love to know other Websleuthers’ thoughts on this!

 

[rojamom]

Things that continue to puzzle me about this case (continued):

2. How Much Did JR Know on the Morning of Dec 26?
When police arrived that morning, JR told them he woke up before PR – at around 5:25 a.m. He said she was still in bed when he went in the bathroom to shave/shower. So if he really didn’t know anything at that point, then PR was especially devious. This means she not only would have done all of the staging solo (the “garrote,” the ransom note, the strangulation, the wrist bindings, the tape, etc.), but also that she crept back into their bedroom, quickly undressed, and slipped into bed to make it seem like she was still sleeping when JR woke up.

If JR *did know* what happened and was in on the staging from the start, then I go back to my first question – why was PR putting on the big “psycho” performance in BR’s room before police even showed up if everyone in the house already knew JBR was lying dead in the basement?

I’d love to know what other posters think!

 

[rojamom]

Things that continue to puzzle me about this case (continued):


3. The Blood Evidence on JBR
We know a small (but visible) spot of blood was found in JBR’s underwear. We also know that JBR’s blood was found smeared on one of her thighs. But the experts in the CBS documentary don’t discuss how this got there and they discount the previous thinking that an object (e.g., part of the paint brush handle) was used to sexually assault her. So where did this blood come from? And why does the autopsy state that there was additional blood found in the vaginal vault if no sexual assault took place?

While I thought CBS documentary was excellent overall, this was the one area where I felt facts were glossed over and no plausible explanation was given.

I was also frustrated that no discussion was held or conclusion reached by the experts on the program as to whether or not JBR had been subjected to sexual abuse or sexually intrusive injuries in the weeks and/or months prior to her death.

I wonder if these questions were addressed on the longer, 6-hour version of the documentary but then edited out. I sure do hope they make the longer version available at some point so we can all view that!

 

[rojamom]

Things that continue to puzzle me about this case (continued):

4. Was the Strangulation Part of the Staging or Part of the Crime?
I go back and forth on this one. It’s clear to me that the “garrote” was an overly elaborate and useless instrument that served no practical purpose in the strangulation, so I tend to believe that was part of staging (e.g., an attempt to make JBR’s death look like the handiwork of a crazed sicko).

But I’m unsure about the deep strangulation marks left by the cord tightly tied around her neck. Was this done by BR after the head blow in a further act of rage/jealousy against JBR? Or was this done by PR or JR?

The deep marks suggest such rage to me, and while I find it plausible that the parents did some staging to cover up what really happened that night, I have a hard time picturing either one of them doing this to her just for the sake of staging. To me, it seems more likely that the strangulation was also BR – but then of course THIS means that BR was one deeply, deeply, DEEPLY disturbed adolescent and that his culpability for JBR’s death goes way beyond an “accidental” bonk on the head.

What are other posters thoughts on this?

 

[johnjay]

Now that the dust has settled a bit from all the recent programs about JonBenet, I’ve had some time to reflect on my theories. I still believe BR was responsible for the head blow, and I still believe the parents covered it up. But I remain conflicted about what parts of the crime were staged, who did what, and who knew what and when they knew. Things that continue to puzzle me about this case:

1. BR’s Account of PR Waking Him Up That Morning “Acting Psycho”
In one of the early taped interviews, BR says it was his mother who first woke him up the morning of Dec. 26. He says she rushed into his room, flipped on the lights, and was frantically asking “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” Later on DrP, he says he can’t remember if she turned on the lights or not, but he reiterates the same basic story that she was the first one to wake him up and that she was frantic.

If BR is telling the truth, my question is – who is this “performance” for? If BR is the one who hit JBR over the head (and I think he was), and PR wrote the note (and I think she did), and both JR and PR did the staging together, then why is PR beginning her macabre acting performance before anyone has arrived at the house yet? That’s like starting the play while the curtain is still down and there’s no one in the audience yet.

So that makes me wonder – was JR still “in the dark” about everything at that point and this “performance” by PR was her attempt to convince *him* that a kidnapping had occurred? Or – was the plan to try to ease BR’s guilt somehow and make him think that he didn’t really kill JBR after all, but that some “bad men” crept into the house AFTER BR hit her so THEY are the ones that are really responsible?

Or is BR lying about these early morning events? If that is the case, then he was already quite calculating at a young age or very carefully coached prior to the early taped interviews.

Is this bugging anyone else? I would love to know other Websleuthers’ thoughts on this!

I think Burke is telling the truth about that and that is what happened- more or less. But I think it happened when Patsy first discovered that JBR wasn't in her room and before the body was discovered.

 

[johnjay]

Things that continue to puzzle me about this case (continued):

2. How Much Did JR Know on the Morning of Dec 26?
When police arrived that morning, JR told them he woke up before PR – at around 5:25 a.m. He said she was still in bed when he went in the bathroom to shave/shower. So if he really didn’t know anything at that point, then PR was especially devious. This means she not only would have done all of the staging solo (the “garrote,” the ransom note, the strangulation, the wrist bindings, the tape, etc.), but also that she crept back into their bedroom, quickly undressed, and slipped into bed to make it seem like she was still sleeping when JR woke up.

If JR *did know* what happened and was in on the staging from the start, then I go back to my first question – why was PR putting on the big “psycho” performance in BR’s room before police even showed up if everyone in the house already knew JBR was lying dead in the basement?

I’d love to know what other posters think!

I think when Patsy found the body her blood curdling scream got John's attention and they worked this all out together.

 

[johnjay]

Things that continue to puzzle me about this case (continued):

4. Was the Strangulation Part of the Staging or Part of the Crime?
I go back and forth on this one. It’s clear to me that the “garrote” was an overly elaborate and useless instrument that served no practical purpose in the strangulation, so I tend to believe that was part of staging (e.g., an attempt to make JBR’s death look like the handiwork of a crazed sicko).

But I’m unsure about the deep strangulation marks left by the cord tightly tied around her neck. Was this done by BR after the head blow in a further act of rage/jealousy against JBR? Or was this done by PR or JR?

The deep marks suggest such rage to me, and while I find it plausible that the parents did some staging to cover up what really happened that night, I have a hard time picturing either one of them doing this to her just for the sake of staging. To me, it seems more likely that the strangulation was also BR – but then of course THIS means that BR was one deeply, deeply, DEEPLY disturbed adolescent and that his culpability for JBR’s death goes way beyond an “accidental” bonk on the head.

What are other posters thoughts on this?

It would take some incredibly crazy parents to garrote their daughter - dead or alive. If JBR's death could be made to look like it was an accident then the parents would have done so - John is a very smart man and Patsy was no dummy- and they could afford good lawyers to help. And given the conflicting reports on sexual abuse, that would have been easy to explain away too. But the garrote marks - there was no explaining those - that's why they had to go the intruder route and all the rest that followed from that - pointing fingers in other directions at every opportunity.

 

[rojamom]

I think Burke is telling the truth about that and that is what happened- more or less. But I think it happened when Patsy first discovered that JBR wasn't in her room and before the body was discovered.

Oh, I see -- so you think the PR "psycho" bit actually occurred much earlier -- during the night maybe? -- and before the whole staging began. Very interesting -- I think you could be on to something here JohnJay -- thanks for your great insights on this!

 

[rojamom]

It would take some incredibly crazy parents to garrote their daughter - dead or alive. If JBR's death could be made to look like it was an accident then the parents would have done so - John is a very smart man and Patsy was no dummy- and they could afford good lawyers to help. And given the conflicting reports on sexual abuse, that would have been easy to explain away too. But the garrote marks - there was no explaining those - that's why they had to go the intruder route and all the rest that followed from that - pointing fingers in other directions at every opportunity.

Yes, JohnJay - I tend to agree with you on all points! It seems much more likely to me that the cord strangulation was done by BR and then the parents had to incorporate that into the subsequent "crime scene" that they staged to point all fingers away from anyone in the home. Thanks for your thoughts on this!

 

[PositiveLight]

Now that the dust has settled a bit from all the recent programs about JonBenet, I’ve had some time to reflect on my theories. I still believe BR was responsible for the head blow, and I still believe the parents covered it up. But I remain conflicted about what parts of the crime were staged, who did what, and who knew what and when they knew. Things that continue to puzzle me about this case:

1. BR’s Account of PR Waking Him Up That Morning “Acting Psycho”
In one of the early taped interviews, BR says it was his mother who first woke him up the morning of Dec. 26. He says she rushed into his room, flipped on the lights, and was frantically asking “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” Later on DrP, he says he can’t remember if she turned on the lights or not, but he reiterates the same basic story that she was the first one to wake him up and that she was frantic.

If BR is telling the truth, my question is – who is this “performance” for? If BR is the one who hit JBR over the head (and I think he was), and PR wrote the note (and I think she did), and both JR and PR did the staging together, then why is PR beginning her macabre acting performance before anyone has arrived at the house yet? That’s like starting the play while the curtain is still down and there’s no one in the audience yet.

So that makes me wonder – was JR still “in the dark” about everything at that point and this “performance” by PR was her attempt to convince *him* that a kidnapping had occurred? Or – was the plan to try to ease BR’s guilt somehow and make him think that he didn’t really kill JBR after all, but that some “bad men” crept into the house AFTER BR hit her so THEY are the ones that are really responsible?

Or is BR lying about these early morning events? If that is the case, then he was already quite calculating at a young age or very carefully coached prior to the early taped interviews.

Is this bugging anyone else? I would love to know other Websleuthers’ thoughts on this!

I don't think John was aware of anything if we go by BR statement. Because like you said it would be acting before the curtain went up. I feel John only figured out when he read the ransom note. I think he put two and two together as the 911 call unfolded. OR he found out soon after her scene in Burkes room. Remember Burke said it was an hour approximately before a cop came in shining his light. So maybe in that hour PR finally told JR what happened and they planned out their story before calling the cops. I just don't see it taking an hour for the cops to check the house. That's a small weird thought that keeps me wondering about the details. The devil is in the details in this case.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Luckymanuh]

Now that the dust has settled a bit from all the recent programs about JonBenet, I’ve had some time to reflect on my theories. I still believe BR was responsible for the head blow, and I still believe the parents covered it up. But I remain conflicted about what parts of the crime were staged, who did what, and who knew what and when they knew. Things that continue to puzzle me about this case:

1. BR’s Account of PR Waking Him Up That Morning “Acting Psycho”
In one of the early taped interviews, BR says it was his mother who first woke him up the morning of Dec. 26. He says she rushed into his room, flipped on the lights, and was frantically asking “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” Later on DrP, he says he can’t remember if she turned on the lights or not, but he reiterates the same basic story that she was the first one to wake him up and that she was frantic.

If BR is telling the truth, my question is – who is this “performance” for? If BR is the one who hit JBR over the head (and I think he was), and PR wrote the note (and I think she did), and both JR and PR did the staging together, then why is PR beginning her macabre acting performance before anyone has arrived at the house yet? That’s like starting the play while the curtain is still down and there’s no one in the audience yet.

So that makes me wonder – was JR still “in the dark” about everything at that point and this “performance” by PR was her attempt to convince *him* that a kidnapping had occurred? Or – was the plan to try to ease BR’s guilt somehow and make him think that he didn’t really kill JBR after all, but that some “bad men” crept into the house AFTER BR hit her so THEY are the ones that are really responsible?

Or is BR lying about these early morning events? If that is the case, then he was already quite calculating at a young age or very carefully coached prior to the early taped interviews.

Is this bugging anyone else? I would love to know other Websleuthers’ thoughts on this!

I am very conflicted at what point JR came into the situation. I keep going back to the first interview they have and he could barely bring himself to look at PR. He could not even bring himself to comfort her. I think he had to do alot of damage control at what point I do not know. Plus at the funeral there was a photo of PR walking into the church ( I am gathering) with a friend not with JR. What parents do not hold each other up after losing a child at her funeral?

 

[Ashleyh613]

Wow what a fantastic site, I'm so glad I found it. I'm a first time poster so I apologize if I ramble a little bit. It took me days to get through this thread but it was worth it. I watched the CBS doc and thought it was very good. I believe that Burke did the strangulation as well as the head wound. I think it's hard to believe for some people that he's capable of something like that but I don't. My uncle (dads brother) is Robert Petrick, there's a thread devoted to him from 05. It's sometimes referred to as the "Google murder" he was one of the first people where internet searches were used to help convict. He had been charged with murdering his wife. He reported her missing and they found her body in a lake wrapped in a blanket secured with chains. My father was given up for adoption as an infant having always been told by my gma that she did not even know anything about his bio family. A few years ago she revealed she actually did and tasked me with finding them. Well I did and was shocked to find out who my Uncle was. I also found my aunt. I have corresponded with my Uncle in prison he is an arrogant sociopath. My aunt relayed a story of coming home from school one day and finding their other sister in a closet wrapped in a blanket secured with belts, she said Robert had done it. I'm sorry I know that I have gotten of topic I just completely understand how something like this could happen in a family any kind of family. It's been theorized that my father was put up for adoption because of the dysfunction and clear psychiatric issues that run in our family. I am halfway through Koler's book, very informational. I think that Burke being responsible ties most things together, and I really think the GJ indictments said a lot.

 

[8paws]

Now that the dust has settled a bit from all the recent programs about JonBenet, I’ve had some time to reflect on my theories. I still believe BR was responsible for the head blow, and I still believe the parents covered it up. But I remain conflicted about what parts of the crime were staged, who did what, and who knew what and when they knew. Things that continue to puzzle me about this case:

1. BR’s Account of PR Waking Him Up That Morning “Acting Psycho”
In one of the early taped interviews, BR says it was his mother who first woke him up the morning of Dec. 26. He says she rushed into his room, flipped on the lights, and was frantically asking “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” Later on DrP, he says he can’t remember if she turned on the lights or not, but he reiterates the same basic story that she was the first one to wake him up and that she was frantic.

If BR is telling the truth, my question is – who is this “performance” for? If BR is the one who hit JBR over the head (and I think he was), and PR wrote the note (and I think she did), and both JR and PR did the staging together, then why is PR beginning her macabre acting performance before anyone has arrived at the house yet? That’s like starting the play while the curtain is still down and there’s no one in the audience yet.

So that makes me wonder – was JR still “in the dark” about everything at that point and this “performance” by PR was her attempt to convince *him* that a kidnapping had occurred? Or – was the plan to try to ease BR’s guilt somehow and make him think that he didn’t really kill JBR after all, but that some “bad men” crept into the house AFTER BR hit her so THEY are the ones that are really responsible?

Or is BR lying about these early morning events? If that is the case, then he was already quite calculating at a young age or very carefully coached prior to the early taped interviews.

Is this bugging anyone else? I would love to know other Websleuthers’ thoughts on this!

I've given this some thought too. I believe that it's a story they came up with. I think he was coached before 911 was called that morning. There's just so much information I've read over the years that it all gets boggled in my mind! I get so frustrated sometimes. And I believe he was also coached before the DP show. I am sure they reviewed the police interviews Burke did with investigators before the DP show and had to make it match.

 

[ThinkHard]

I was just looking at the WHO definition of dissocial personality disorder.

John displays all 6 on the list of 6.

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others - pointing the finger at former friends, not caring if they end up accused of this crime and having their lives forever tainted by suspicion.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations - refusing to assist LE
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships - having an affair that wrecked his marriage, despite describing his first wife as perfect
4. Very low tolerance to frustration - getting angry when he found out a man had shared a taxi with Patsy on her trip to New York, and kicking the kitchen door in anger
5. Incapacity to experience guilt - doesn't require an explanation
6. Marked readiness to blame others - doesn't require an explanation.

He seems to have slipped under the radar with his superficial charm.

Did you mean antisocial personality disorder or dissociative personality disorder?

 

[Karinna]

I am very conflicted at what point JR came into the situation. I keep going back to the first interview they have and he could barely bring himself to look at PR. He could not even bring himself to comfort her. I think he had to do alot of damage control at what point I do not know. Plus at the funeral there was a photo of PR walking into the church ( I am gathering) with a friend not with JR. What parents do not hold each other up after losing a child at her funeral?

BBM, I think the problem in this case is normal people trying to make sense out of very abnormal circumstances that culminated in the murder of a little girl.

 

[ThinkHard]

[/B]

BBM, I think the problem in this case is normal people trying to make sense out of very abnormal circumstances that culminated in the murder of a little girl.

Hahaha, truer words never spoken!

 

[TheOtherChristina]

Did you mean antisocial personality disorder or dissociative personality disorder?

Tortoise was correct in citing the WHO diagnosis of dissocial personality disorder. ASPD is the DSM-5 equivalent.