ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[TxJan1971]

That's funny, I thought VDK told us baby Deorr was "playing with Grandpa"

July 12, 2015
Interview with Nate

VDK: He was playing with Grandpa

08:47
VDK: (interrupts Nate)
He…He was playing with…He was

 

[SubtleGrace]

I can't post the videos, but I am sure they are in the media list thread. In IR's first interview, he said he was with Deorr and Grampa and Deorr just "disappeared". His last interview, he said he was with Jess and Vernal at the creek. One person, one story changed into another.

 

[koios]

BBM
You stated they were not together the whole time yet one of the top two suspects in the disappearance of her son, JMA, actually stated otherwise. Should we go with what she stated or what you stated?

JMA: Yeah! I…I believe in both our innocence because he was with me that whole time. He…the longest he was out of my sight was when he went up the embankment to go get our son, so…and that was maybe five minutes.
http://m.localnews8.com/news/newsline-special-search-for-deorr-kunz-one-year-later/40453144

J is referring to the period which ended with the moment she learned that the child was discovered missing.
As she states, she was not with V for the last part (estimated at "5 minutes") of that period.
In addition, outside of the whole period referred to by J, there is a longer period during which she was not with him, which was while he was driving the truck, and she was searching on foot.

 

[Maggie_Mayz]

Hahahahahaha

But in all seriousness, I agree. Jessicas latest storyline says Deorr was sitting on the ridge and GGP was watching him play with dirt or his "shoes" and he suddenly vanished. He certainly hadn't follow J and V in THAT version of eventsm

Exactly and why would Grandpa not raise an alarm and why was he in his care and why oh why did they think he was abducted? Nothing makes sense.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Basically it seems they're ALL liars. They're ALL hiding something. I didn't want to believe Isaac or Trina knew anything bad but I'm now more doubtful.

The Sheriff emphatically says they lied.
The FBI must agree that they lied or the police wouldn't have said it.
The lie detector tests confirmed they lied.
PI #1, hired by the family, quit because he couldn't cope with any more lies.
PI #2, hired by the family, totally believes they are lying liars who lied.

None of Jessica's friends are speaking out, where are the "shes such a great mom" posts? None of them turned up for the October search, in fact NOBODY except Jess & Trina turned up for that search. Why? Why are none of their friends and extended family supporting them?

Why?

Because they don't believe them either.

 

[misty48]

No, the parents failed the polygraphs. The other two campers were inconclusive. Why? Because they are both most likely on medications that interfere with the polygraph results thus causing them to be inconclusive. Look up meds that taint polygraph tests. Here's one link of an example: https://www.reference.com/health/drugs-affect-lie-detector-test-fe6e6c1f1f543da2

That said, I still don't believe IR. Period. And GGP, well, let's just call him "the silent type"... no doubt for good reason. But between IR and the parents, their stories just don't match, they all have different versions. Several of them. Why, because they're not facts, they're fabrications.

BTW, how could anyone that's followed this case since the beginning not realize that this whole masquerade has been nothing but a collusion between the four of these "campers", regardless of the cause of Deorr's disappearance. In the beginning, we were all giving them the benefit of the doubt. We all thought he had wondered off and gotten lost, or taken by a mountain lion. Then there was the abduction story by the parents. But then, they didn't want to publicize it, have a hotline, or offer a reward. This is not what parents do who have a missing child. Period. Little Deorr's parents have never come out and begged for him back, they still aren't. You want to see what loving parents do when their child goes missing ? Just take a look at the Jacob Wetterling case, it's the difference in night and day.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?579-Jacob-Wetterling

ETA: misty48, I'd appreciate a response and explanation. Maybe it would help bring about some understanding, or not. TIA

How much faith should be placed in polygraphs? If you look at the case of the McStay family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McStay_family_murder) you will see that the eventual accused murderer passed a polygraph test. LE also incorrectly assessed that the family were not dead & had fled to Mexico despite the absence of positive evidence to the contrary. So, to answer both your & CoverMeCagney's questions re. polygraphs & if FBI/LE have VDK & JA horribly wrong, the McStay case demonstrates both.
IMO there is no collusion between the 4 campers. The parents don't know where Deorr is or what happened, GGP seems to admit on more than one occasion the lad disappeared on his watch & then we have "the elephant in the room" as you referred to him. As I have said before, IMO the conversation between GGP (on the ridge) & IR(by the creek) took place BEFORE VDK returned to collect Deorr. Otherwise, there is no explanation as to why
a) no-one apparently asked IR when he was fishing if Deorr was down with him
b) IR made no mention of searching the banks of the creek, instead he went straight up to GGP
c) IR said he searched the campers before going up to the reservoir but stated that JA/VDK were not in the camp area at that time (so where did he think they had both gone?)

It is not always best practice to offer a reward for a missing child if you suspect one of the main players is culpable. There was considerable media coverage publicising the case & LE had their own phone lines to collect any potentially useful information.
I think you must have missed the parents appealing for their child's safe return & details of the time they spent up in the mountains. It is unfair to try & stereotype the behaviour of a parent whose child has gone missing as each can react in various different modes.
I trust my response has met your demand for same.

 

[misty48]

BOWERMAN
"They're not able to tell the same story twice because they've told so many stories, you know, getting changes in the story all the time," he said.
http://legacy.ktvb.com/story/news/c...parents-suspects-his-disappearance/79301014/\

So far we have this coming from Bowerman as a direct quote and confirmed by Klein. We also have Vilt publicly announcing that they are liars/lied to him. It was previously stated by Bowerman that Bonneville and FBI both both felt the parents were lying about what happened and where the baby was, so it would be interesting to know whether they, too, feel the parents and GGP have changed their stories. We have heard that Isaac's story was the most consistent, which would lead me to believe that if his story was "consistent" - the other three's stories had to have been "inconsistent." Time will tell if/when this ever gets to trial.

High on hyperbole but short on detail.

 

[katydid23]

I don't recall GGP saying "toddling towards the embankment", but maybe I missed the source?

I remember that as a statement from the Sheriff on Tricias Crime Radio show, IIRC.

 

[SubtleGrace]

High on hyperbole but short on detail.

He can't try the case in the media. Some details have to be held back. Not that way where you come from? I wish Idaho had the Sunshine laws like Florida, but they don't. Do you expect LE to put everything out in the media before they arrest anyone?

 

[byo]

<respectfully snipped>
As of 15 months after the "incident," GGP's actual statements are unknown and therefore hearsay, IMOO. If someone can point me to any direct quotes or interviews or statements by GGP himself, please share because I am truly unaware that they exist!! TIA.

Thank you for asking. Klein released some video snips of GGP in July:

Klein Investigations and Consulting July 1
Klein Investigations and Consulting July 18
Klein Investigations and Consulting July 19
Klein Investigations and Consulting August 7


:seeya:

 

[misty48]

Are you for real?? IR? Alone??? Jessica admitted he was fishing at the creek with her and Vernal was the one not there. Not to mention IR had no access to a vehicle. Where is Deorr?? IR snuck the shovel away without 2 worried parents and GGP questioning where he was taking a shovel while Deorr is missing? And he buried him somewhere and so well that LE and searches didn't find recently disturbed ground?

Come on. That's not even plausible anymore with everything we now know.

What was the time lapse between IR leaving the parents at the first fishing hole & JA, out of the corner of her right eye, seeing IR fishing downstream from her spot on the island?

 

[TxJan1971]

J is referring to the period which ended with the moment she learned that the child was discovered missing.
As she states, she was not with V for the last part (estimated at "5 minutes") of that period.
In addition, outside of the whole period referred to by J, there is a longer period during which she was not with him, which was while he was driving the truck, and she was searching on foot.

IMO we do not know with 100% certainty (or even 97% or 50% for that matter) where VDK was or where JMA was after they found out their child was missing or what they were doing - or whether or not they were actually together, or apart, at any time during this camping trip and resultant alleged disappearance. For all we know, they could have all been partying, drinking, sleeping, swimming, playing cards, fishing, or whatever. Remember the only four people there were all named suspects (three moreso than IR), they all failed their polys about what happened to baby Deorr and where he is, so it's very difficult for me to believe anything they state without evidence to prove it. Fifteen long months after the fact, none of us know what actually occurred that day and preceding days.

You allege they were apart while VDK hauled down the road to get a signal, yet Klein shares this about whether or not they were ever actually "apart" as you allege:

KLEIN RELEASE &#8211; VDK was 1.5 miles away &#8211; Jess emptied her pockets in VDK&#8217;s truck

Klein Investigations and Consulting
This afternoon investigators are releasing one of the areas of discrepancy in the written statements given by the two suspects in the missing child case - Deorr Kunz, Jr. This is one of many discrepancies between witness statements and actual 911 recordings as well as other evidence. Investigators have been able to enhance the audio background - to which during the 911 call one suspect is talking to the other - when the statement says he is over 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. As well one suspect says that he was 1.5 miles away in his truck - however - the other suspect says that she put contents from her pockets into the truck after she hung up with 911. In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp where the child went missing. The two 911 calls were made at 2:36 by the female and 2:38 by the male.

VDK Statement:
Dirt road looking at my phone till I seen I had 2 bars of 3 g service. I slammed on the brakes. I was about 1.5 miles from camp. I call 911 and told them I lost my son but couldn&#8217;t remember the name of where I was. I

Jessica Statement:
&#8230;called 911. I told the dispatcher what was going on and she told me my husband was on the other line with them. When I was done talking to her I took everything out of my pocket and threw them in Deorr&#8217;s truck on the passenger seat

(Question: How could she throw them in Deorr&#8217;s truck if he was 1.5 miles from camp and she was "searching back at camp?")

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/videos/1041693925913191/


Q: Ok just to be clear and make sure im not confused...this appears that vernal was not down the road getting cell service..he was actually still at the camp with jessica when she made the call. Correct?

Klein Investigations and Consulting All we can say is what they told us - and the investigators that day. Vernal says he was 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. Jessica says that she made the 911 call at the camp then threw her stuff in the front of Vernal's truck. The first call was at 2:36 p from Jessica to 911. The second was 2:38 from Vernal to 911. Vernal can be heard in the background of Jessica's 911 call. Jessica says that after she hung up she threw her contents of her pockets into Vernal's truck. It takes 16 minutes to get back to the camp from where Vernal says he was. All we can do is repeat and timeline their testimony and compare to the recordings. In our cell study this past weekend - both Jessica and Vernal had the same cell company - to which they both could get a cell signal out. We were clearly with our equipment able to garner 2.9 informational and cell signal out.

 

[TxJan1971]

Thank you for asking. Klein released some video snips of GGP in July:

Klein Investigations and Consulting July 1
Klein Investigations and Consulting July 18
Klein Investigations and Consulting July 19
Klein Investigations and Consulting August 7


:seeya:

Thanks! I'm pretty sure I have all those. I was looking for more in the form of any interview he may have given where he specifically tells us his timeline - what happened - his version. I'm going back to re-read the transcripts of the links you kindly provided just to make sure I didn't miss any "details."

I don't believe in any of those he says something like:

I was watching the baby and he...
I watched him walk towards...
I was playing with him and then I went ____
Jessica came and asked me....
Vernal came and said...

That type of dialogue.

 

[misty48]

There were two periods when DK was not under the watch of either parent.
1. the period from when V and J went down to the creek, until V returned to the campsite and it was realised that DK was missing.
2. the period after it was realised that DK was missing.
MOO the second period, for a small child, had an elevated risk of serious accident relative to the first period, have LE and KIC considered the second period?

I'm puzzled by your logic on this. The "not under the watch of either parent" commenced when they went off fishing & was never apparently resumed - it was one continuous period.

 

[katydid23]

Thanks! I'm pretty sure I have all those. I was looking for more in the form of any interview he may have given where he specifically tells us his timeline - what happened - his version. I'm going back to re-read the transcripts of the links you kindly provided just to make sure I didn't miss any "details."

I don't believe in any of those he says something like:

I was watching the baby and he...
I watched him walk towards...
I was playing with him and then I went ____
Jessica came and asked me....
Vernal came and said...

That type of dialogue.

GGP supposedly told the Sheriff his version, which was then shared on Tricias Thursday night Crime Radio show. IIRC, that is where GGP was said to have told LE that he saw the boy heading towards the embankment, and GGP looked away, then when he looked back, the boy was gone. So GGP assumed he went and found his folks...

 

[misty48]

IMO we do not know with 100% certainty (or even 97% or 50% for that matter) where VDK was or where JMA was after they found out their child was missing or what they were doing - or whether or not they were actually together, or apart, at any time during this camping trip and resultant alleged disappearance. For all we know, they could have all been partying, drinking, sleeping, swimming, playing cards, fishing, or whatever. Remember the only four people there were there were all named suspects (three moreso than IR), they all failed their polys about what happened to baby Deorr and where he is, so it's very difficult for me to believe anything they state without evidence to prove it. Fifteen long months after the fact, none of us know what actually occurred that day and preceding days.

You allege they were apart while VDK hauled down the road to get a signal, yet Klein shares this about whether or not they were ever actually "apart" as you allege:

KLEIN RELEASE &#8211; VDK was 1.5 miles away &#8211; Jess emptied her pockets in VDK&#8217;s truck

Klein Investigations and Consulting
This afternoon investigators are releasing one of the areas of discrepancy in the written statements given by the two suspects in the missing child case - Deorr Kunz, Jr. This is one of many discrepancies between witness statements and actual 911 recordings as well as other evidence. Investigators have been able to enhance the audio background - to which during the 911 call one suspect is talking to the other - when the statement says he is over 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. As well one suspect says that he was 1.5 miles away in his truck - however - the other suspect says that she put contents from her pockets into the truck after she hung up with 911. In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp where the child went missing. The two 911 calls were made at 2:36 by the female and 2:38 by the male.

VDK Statement:
Dirt road looking at my phone till I seen I had 2 bars of 3 g service. I slammed on the brakes. I was about 1.5 miles from camp. I call 911 and told them I lost my son but couldn&#8217;t remember the name of where I was. I

Jessica Statement:
&#8230;called 911. I told the dispatcher what was going on and she told me my husband was on the other line with them. When I was done talking to her I took everything out of my pocket and threw them in Deorr&#8217;s truck on the passenger seat

(Question: How could she throw them in Deorr&#8217;s truck if he was 1.5 miles from camp and she was "searching back at camp?")

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/videos/1041693925913191/


Q: Ok just to be clear and make sure im not confused...this appears that vernal was not down the road getting cell service..he was actually still at the camp with jessica when she made the call. Correct?

Klein Investigations and Consulting All we can say is what they told us - and the investigators that day. Vernal says he was 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. Jessica says that she made the 911 call at the camp then threw her stuff in the front of Vernal's truck. The first call was at 2:36 p from Jessica to 911. The second was 2:38 from Vernal to 911. Vernal can be heard in the background of Jessica's 911 call. Jessica says that after she hung up she threw her contents of her pockets into Vernal's truck. It takes 16 minutes to get back to the camp from where Vernal says he was. All we can do is repeat and timeline their testimony and compare to the recordings. In our cell study this past weekend - both Jessica and Vernal had the same cell company - to which they both could get a cell signal out. We were clearly with our equipment able to garner 2.9 informational and cell signal out.

Klein Investigations should have a read of this article about phone bars.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/what-do-the-bars-on-your-smartphone-mean-we-asked-an-expert/

Klein clearly hasn't considered that JA may have spent much longer on the phone to the 911 operator than VK.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Can we go back to mountain lions please?
:sigh:

 

[koios]

I remember that as a statement from the Sheriff on Tricias Crime Radio show, IIRC.

At 5:34 the sheriff says
"grandpa says he's watching the child, he's looking at him, momentarily he looks away, when he looks back the child has gone, he assumes that the child has gone back down to mom and dad"
but I can't find sheriff saying that GGP actually "saw the child toddling towards the embankment", maybe I missed it?
http://www.truecrimeradio.com/radio...d-bowerman-john-kelly-radio-archive-oct-2015/

 

[TxJan1971]

GGP supposedly told the Sheriff his version, which was then shared on Tricias Thursday night Crime Radio show. IIRC, that is where GGP was said to have told LE that he saw the boy heading towards the embankment, and GGP looked away, then when he looked back, the boy was gone. So GGP assumed he went and found his folks...

I'm totally with you!! I was just trying to clarify that we haven't really heard from GGP himself as to his specific story of the events that begin with what occurred on the way TO the campground up until after LE/SAR arrived. What is his version of events. We hear bits/pieces relayed via Bowerman, and we hear it in several Klein clips but I'm also cognizant that stories are ever changing, and who is to say that what he told Bowerman is actually what he would tell you or I or Klein today? Has his story evolved or changed at all? If I'm not mistaken, although it was expected, he did fail his polygraph test as well.

I do have the transcripts from Tricia's Radio shows if you need any of that reposted here. Just let me know!

 

[KatieLiz]

If that is the case then where is he? And why the changing stories? Why not say this is what we thought happened and we really do not know. Not go from well maybe he followed us, then maybe he was kidnapped, then maybe etc. Etc. There would have been trace evidence of that even with the trained dogs. So not sure why the parents would lie if it was in fact a tragic case of him wndering off, just take the the hit of possible outrage etc. I think one of the reasons they are not fighting or even attempting to look for their son is 1) he was not there to begin with and they know where he is at, either sold etc, died etc. 2) or they accidentally did something to him or he was there and he is hidden somewhere. I just have a hard time believing they would not take certain steps or do nothing or very little in the search for their son. And if it was truly a vanished situation or he got away from them then say so and do everything you can to find him. Not consistently change stories do one search and then another a year later etc.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

I really like this comment. It brings up a good point-- if this child is legitimately missing, why would the parents guess and make up "maybe" scenarios.

Let's just imagine (God forbid) one of our toddler's actually wanders away/goes missing... would we then try to tell officers a bunch of possible scenarios? Or would I be freaking out and saying he was JUST HERE
!! where's my baby?? find my baby!! I don't know where my baby is!

I think the latter. I surely wouldn't provide scenarios for his disappearance, like an abduction, and then contradict them. I would be telling the police to do their job and find my baby....


And I NEVER would have left that campsite until I found him. Because if he was truly missing there would be no where else for him to be. (The parents said themselves they would notice a stranger driving into the campground)

But then again... if I was guilty, I would probably act "somewhat" along the lines as these parents. Except they appear to be much better liars than I am...