Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Sunshine4Me]

Sunshine: You are making a lot of assumptions.

Are you saying that if you had discovered your 9 year old son had garrotted your 6 year old daughter you would feel comfortable in sending him back to school? That wouldn't be fair on the parents of the other kids in the school, would it?

A kid with temper enough to bash his sister's brains in is not fit to be with other children, unless closely supervised at all times.

I certainly would not wish my daughter to be a classmate of another child who could do something like that.

The chances he may do something similar again (if unsupervised) would probably be quite high. Would you really want to take that chance?

A child who could do something like that would need therapy - and lots of it - plus all kinds of counselling, which I truly believe could have happened in this case.

Please reread my post. You must have missed where I said I do not agree with covering for Burke or sending him back to school to be around other children, only that I can see how the Ramsey's would think it was the best way to keep suspicion off of Burke.

 

[CorallaroC]

As to the pineapple and the bagels - my understanding is that the bagels were brought by the victims' advocates who arrived after Patsy had invited her posse.

As noted above, the pineapple was fresh, but cut at the supermarket according to Patsy, so easy for a child to deal with. The pineapple and milk thing is very weird. I should think the milk would curdle pretty quickly from the acidic nature of the pineapple. ( Pina Coladas are made with coconut milk, not dairy milk.) I don't know, maybe it's okay if you eat it very quickly. Still a strange combo. But then again, what wasn't strange about these people?

About the pineapple and milk, if sources are still available online you will find a reference to it in one of the JR interviews with LE. IIRC he explains that he is somewhat familiar with it being a "southern type treat" but claims to not understand the detail about milk curdling. I'm sorry that I an not able to provide links at this time due to my limitations. If googling doesn't bring it up, then searching this forum will find it. anyone interested can find it fairly easily.

 

[TinaD]

TinaD,
JonBenet was wiped down after being redressed in the size-12's and bleeding internally.
Search Warrant, 01/30/1997, Excerpt


Assuming the fibers found belong to JR's Israel manufactured shirt then he wiped down JonBenet simply by pulling her underwear down?

i.e. after the fact staging?


.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that snippet. I'm not sure that simply using the underwear to wipe her would totally remove all visual evidence of blood, but maybe. It must then be staging after staging - she was dressed in the too big undies and presumably the long johns, then they were at least pulled down and she was wiped. How does that fit with the urine stain on the longjohns - assuming it was released at the time of death? John - or someone - pulled down the stained garments then pulled them up again without replacing?

 

[ghostrighter]

(Respectfully snipped)
I don't see why the long johns are such a big deal. They're interesting for sure but could easily be nothing. We already knew JB wore B's hand-me-downs so it's not surprising they'd be in her pajama drawer (which is where all the old, comfy, not wearable in public clothes go in my experience). No, it doesn't track with the pageant queen image but I'm not going to discount PDI or JDI (or BDI and J or P staged) because she wasn't staged in something girly and nice. Besides the huge urine stain that obviously came post-mortem they appear to be clean. If that's something JB would usually wear to bed it may not have occurred to the stager that others would find it weird for her to be wearing them. We never even knew she was wearing boy's long johns until a few weeks ago, no one saw a reason to comment on it, not even Kolar.

As for the underpants, it could be she was dressed in overly large underpants by a young boy who wouldn't think about how strange it would look. And yet he went through the trouble of tracking down a brand new clean pair of underwear fresh out if the package for some reason? A new package that wasn't ever found by police - did he hide it? And either by accident or thanks to a keen eye for detail, he puts her in Wednesday underpants to match the last day she was alive, as if to indicate she was wearing them all that day, as Patsy tried to make the police believe. IDK, I think there's more to the big Bloomies than carelessness.

BBM I agree. We know on Christmas day JBR said she would be receiving a special visit from Santa. We don't know who told her that.
Could it have been Burke? What if the pineapple was used to lure JBR to the main floor? Once there, the special visit from Santa was used to further lure JBR to the basement. (A place, if I recall correctly, that JBR did not like to go to.) Encouraged to go into the wine cellar...look what Santa brought you ....its a pair of Wednesday Bloomies that you asked for. Santa is in the wine cellar....See all the gifts wrapped in the cellar... you have to try on the Bloomies first...we always try on our Christmas clothes, here ..put these on.....JBR refuses and is struck in the head Santa B Took Christmas

Just my opinion and thinking out loud.

 

[k-mac]

If the case were really PDI or JDI JonBenet would not be wearing over sized underwear or male long johns.

One thing I cannot explain, step forward Kolar, how did BR access the size-12's, i.e. did he go down to the basement to fetch them?

.

dont agree here. the long johns do not exclude PDI

the size 12 bloomies were in the basement ...and so i believe were the long johns .
cant rule any RDI out for the long johns.
only validation we have of where the long johns came from was out of the mouth of patsy.....and like her word is so trustworthy. :facepalm:
jmho

 

[GINK]

you all don't get it...... this is a case protected by the specifics in the 1st amendment. your not supposed to know, this is about protecting the masses (public in it's entirety.] Nixon was once told, if u lose the tv audience, you lose the country,,,, well that is true to this day. Imagine 300 million people get told that media was reason a child was harmed..... well you have a major loss of trust on your hands...... that's what I know about xmas 1996.

The shame is Jonbenet deserves better.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I can't help wondering what JBR would tell us, if she was able to communicate.

If the perpetrator was one of her family would she prefer for that person to be left to rest in peace? If BDI would she also wish us to leave him alone so he can get on with his life? Same with her dad, if he had anything to do with it.

It's just a thought.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I can't help wondering what JBR would tell us, if she was able to communicate.

If the perpetrator was one of her family would she prefer for that person to be left to rest in peace? If BDI would she also wish us to leave him alone so he can get on with his life? Same with her dad, if he had anything to do with it.

It's just a thought.

I wonder about that a lot. From my perspective, there is no justice for JBR because whoever killed her and their accomplice/s have never been held responsible. But her family has spent the last 20 years trapped in their own personal hell trying to cover up their involvement. It's like a real-life version of Sartre's play No Exit, except instead of hell being three people locked in a room together for all eternity ("Hell is...other people!"), hell is three people stuck together under the umbrella of suspicion for eternity, trapped in a horrific lie. Like Lizzie Borden, they got away with it in life but they'll go down in history as the only plausible suspects in JBR's murder. The court of public opinion is the only place this case will be tried and they are not winning.

I find all three Ramseys frustrating and contemptible but they have suffered in this and I feel sorry for them to varying degrees depending on who actually did what and why. However I do not think they have suffered enough for their crimes. But maybe JBR would. I don't believe in any kind of life after death so it's all purely hypothetical to me, but seeing as she's the truly wronged party here I'd love to know what justice would look like from her perspective and what her reaction to everything that happened after her death would be.


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[Miz Adventure]

I wouldn't feel too sorry for them.

They seems to relish being in front of those cameras - they got a taste of 'celebrity'. The word 'mediawhores' comes to mind.

You could say that once they smelled the greasepaint they became hooked and there was no stopping them.

Patsy wanted fame - she loved her stint as Miss West Virginia because for a while she actually was someone. People were looking at her.

Their daughter was horribly murdered by (they said) an intruder. In not one of those televised interviews did we see a single tear shed by either parent as they recalled that dreadful night.

Personally I would have been in pieces, hardly able to talk.

 

[kanzz]

I can't help wondering what JBR would tell us, if she was able to communicate.

If the perpetrator was one of her family would she prefer for that person to be left to rest in peace? If BDI would she also wish us to leave him alone so he can get on with his life? Same with her dad, if he had anything to do with it.

It's just a thought.

Nope. I can't go there.

As the great John Fitzgerald Kennedy once said:
“If not us, who? If not now, when?”

JBR doesn't have many who will speak for her now that nearly 20 years have passed since her brutal murder.

If the days and nights of the perpetrators of that crime are filled with some torment rather than imprisonment, so be it. At least they have their freedom. She has nothing.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I find all three Ramseys frustrating and contemptible but they have suffered in this and I feel sorry for them to varying degrees depending on who actually did what and why. However I do not think they have suffered enough for their crimes. But maybe JBR would. I don't believe in any kind of life after death so it's all purely hypothetical to me, but seeing as she's the truly wronged party here I'd love to know what justice would look like from her perspective and what her reaction to everything that happened after her death would be.

I can't feel sorry for John and Patsy because they profited from their child's death and were so quick to throw people they knew were innocent under the bus - even their own friends - but I can feel some sympathy for Burke. He was a child after all, and his parents did him no favors either before or after the murder. Had they done the right thing at any point during this tragedy, he would at most be a footnote in crime history, and possibly not thought of at all. But because of their selfish choices, he will live the remainder of his life as The Boy Who Most Likely Killed His Sister in one of the highest profile crimes of all time.

 

[UKGuy]

dont agree here. the long johns do not exclude PDI

the size 12 bloomies were in the basement ...and so i believe were the long johns .
cant rule any RDI out for the long johns.
only validation we have of where the long johns came from was out of the mouth of patsy.....and like her word is so trustworthy. :facepalm:
jmho

k-mac,
BBM: Well that's a long shot. Even if you were right, I cannot see either JR or PR deliberately staging a homicide using BR's long johns and size-12 underwear That setup points directly at the family, which contradicts the purpose of staging.

.

 

[Tortoise]

k-mac,
BBM: Well that's a long shot. Even if you were right, I cannot see either JR or PR deliberately staging a homicide using BR's long johns and size-12 underwear That setup points directly at the family, which contradicts the purpose of staging.

.

Why does it point at family, if you think PR and JR would choose something prettier but definitely not those clothes?

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I wouldn't feel too sorry for them.

They seems to relish being in front of those cameras - they got a taste of 'celebrity'. The word 'mediawhores' comes to mind.

You could say that once they smelled the greasepaint they became hooked and there was no stopping them.

Patsy wanted fame - she loved her stint as Miss West Virginia because for a while she actually was someone. People were looking at her.

Their daughter was horribly murdered by (they said) an intruder. In not one of those televised interviews did we see a single tear shed by either parent as they recalled that dreadful night.

Personally I would have been in pieces, hardly able to talk.

Haha, well you're right, no reason to feel TOO sorry for them. I agree they must have liked the attention because they could never just shut up and "move on" as they famously wanted to do. Nope, the past 20 years have been a never-ending "We're Not Guilty!" media tour. Finding the "intruder" is always an afterthought IF it comes up at all in their interviews. Their number 1 focus has always been convincing the public that they are good Christians who have nothing to do with it, it's just a PR move. And now even Burke's getting in on it with that disastrous Dr. Phil interview. And who are the Ramseys always mad at? Not the killer but the media and police!

Re: the bolded
That drives me nuts too. John especially is always smiling in his interviews, it's very off-putting. Patsy, to her credit, tried for tears on occasion but could never quite get there. So she'd just close her eyes and shake her head to look emotional.
It also reminds me of the episode described in PMPT where Patsy goes to the station to talk about Pasta Jay's arrest and is sobbing and distraught while she talks about how invasive and cruel the media is. But then, as Jeff Hendry of the sheriff's Dept observed, she talks about someone breaking into her home and murdering her daughter without tears.


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[UKGuy]

Why does it point at family, if you think PR and JR would choose something prettier but definitely not those clothes?

Tortoise,
Because prior to knowing that the long johns belong to BR, Patsy is on record with a legend regarding the size-12's, but no information about which underwear JonBenet wore to the White's, despite redressing her.

i.e. No intruder knew about the size-12's and common sense suggests JonBenet never wore them to the White's. Add in Burke's long johns, and it definitely points at the family.

Whatever JR or PR might chose to dress JonBenet in, pretty or not, I reckon the underwear would be size appropriate and the long johns or pajama bottoms would be female gendered.

To accomplish the staging I'm assuming they would place the emphasis on a normative child clothing style, certainly not what, allegedly BR has dressed her in, that screams RDI.

.

 

[HarmonyE.]

John especially is always smiling in his interviews, it's very off-putting.

Half smile/half smirk. Like the knew he was successfully pulling one over on everyone. Well, maybe not everyone....

 

[k-mac]

k-mac,
BBM: Well that's a long shot. Even if you were right, I cannot see either JR or PR deliberately staging a homicide using BR's long johns and size-12 underwear That setup points directly at the family, which contradicts the purpose of staging.

.

dont see it as a long shot.
see it as a real possibility as anything else.
i dont as ive stated before, believe the R'S put any where near the thought into this that we give them credit.
we read into alot that most likely is totally irrelevant.
the long johns for me were opportunistic only. as were the size 12's.
i think they were so traumatized by what they were doing all their focus was on stopping the death ugliness. (cleaning up the bodily fluids to begin with. then just had to let it go fighting a loosing battle.) i dont think appearances as in clothing at that point was significant to them at all.

patsy admits she put the ugly lj's on her....why?
because she did!

she had to say she got them from the bathroom because its a bit hard to tell LE you found them down in the basement out of hand me down bag while you were finishing off killing your daughter in a mercy to god moment when you never went down there hey?

 

[HarmonyE.]

i dont as ive stated before, believe the R'S put any where near the thought into this that we give them credit.

This. For so many things. If we just try to imagine the general scene that night it must have been one of horror, terror, panic, and fear on the part of JBR's parents. This was not a planned murder and so the cover up by definition was something pulled together on a wing and a prayer - with a time limitation. The ransom note isn't long and rambling because it made sense for it to be long and rambling. It's a crazed, desperate over-the-top sales job. Any clear-thinking person would have known to keep it very short and sweet, and to spend any excess time on making sure her handwriting was very well disguised.

Reading too much into any of their actions is apt to lead us down unnecessary rabbit holes. It all may look clever and thought out, but this is only because they first got lucky and then got lawyers. And hence, got away with it.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Reading too much into any of their actions is apt to lead us down unnecessary rabbit holes. It all may look clever and thought out, but this is only because they first got lucky and then got lawyers. And hence, got away with it.

Listen carefully! I too now keep saying "and hence" - it's become a compulsion, a bit like Patsy's. Lol.

 

[dogperson]

I for one have never bought into the idea that Patsy would have put JonBenet in nicer clothes if the family was involved in the staging and redressing. From what at least one housekeeper said, Patsy didn't much care what JonBenet wore at home and what did it matter if police saw her in sloppier clothes? It could be the Ramseys didn't expect police to ever see the body, as there's been some speculation that originally they expected police to leave the house when the ransom call didn't come in so they could search for suspects/sex offenders, etc. Plus, putting her in better clothes would have raised the question of how and why an intruder took the time to go through her closet and select an outfit to dress her in. Putting something on her other than what she might have worn to bed points a finger straight back at the family and nowhere else, and they couldn't risk messing up their intruder theory anymore than they already had.