Member of Grand Jury speaks on 20/20

[UKGuy]

Well that is also part of my theory. I think JBR's body was initially concealed in the trunk of one of the R's cars, or possibly in the crawl space in the train room - which could be why JR put a chair in front of door, hoping to prevent anyone entering.

At that time it was a 'simple' kidnapping - their daughter had been taken so the couple would not have expected anyone to search the house. They had already told the police they had looked everywhere - why wasn't that enough?

The plan was that when the phone call did not materialize then naturally the police would leave the Ramseys home. The couple could then bring the body out, leave her in the cellar and then make another call to the police saying they had discovered their daughter's body - dead. The kidnapper had killed her and returned her body to them because they went against instructions and had called the police.

Unfortunately the plan went wrong. The police showed no signs of going. John knew that if a thorough search was undertaken then his daughter's body may be discovered in his car. He HAD to bring her back inside, which he did. He put her in the wine cellar - this accounts for his 'missing' time.

He went back upstairs and as soon as Arndt suggested another search John was up out of his seat and straight down to the cellar room where he 'discovered' JBR.

You know the rest.

Miz Adventure.
Sure it was likely something along these lines. My BDI is similar but BR, unlike in Kolar's theory, does not do it all. JR and PR help him out by smoothing away a lot of forensic evidence.

I reckon the R's game plan was simple, i.e. hide JonBenet, fake an abduction to explain this, hope she is not found, then escape interstate as soon as possible?

.

 

[kanzz]

Hey y'all ! I don't have cable anymore since we lost everything in the great Louisiana flood ...I have internet tho ...anyone know a way I cN watch the reels program ?

Sorry, cubbeegirl, I'm not aware of anything online. Reelz will reply this several times on tv.. then I suppose maybe they'll upload it, but I don't know.

 

[kanzz]

O/T...

Websleuths does have a thread for pet photos.. :escape: to see all the adorable furbabies at http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93865

What a great thread. So many fun pics there. Thank you, Bently!

:gthanks:

 

[Ambitioned]

Sorry, cubbeegirl, I'm not aware of anything online. Reelz will reply this several times on tv.. then I suppose maybe they'll upload it, but I don't know.

Maybe someone will record it and post on YouTube.

In the meantime here's some interesting comments about the show:

Reelz thread

 

[buggiegirl]

By contrast, the big bit of good news was that the case investigators now believe what has been batted around here for some time: that the cord and tape were taken off of Patsy's painting frames.

So that feels super easy to confirm (or at least confirm it's likely), were the rest of her paintings backed with those materials or similar materials? It also makes sense in that the prices of those items and McWhoever's hardware store matched, but if she was routinely using them to back or hang paintings she could have bought them and NOT premeditated JBR's murder (I've never thought it was premeditated really).

 

[buggiegirl]

Yes they are unknown but we do know the GJ did not vote a true bill for those other counts.

Ah, so is that what it means when the pages are not signed by the foreperson? That they didn't have enough votes to indict on those counts?

And stupid question, is it 1 count per page? Side note, counts can have multiple parts. [FONT=&quot]Count IV(a) [/FONT] for example. They wouldn't list "a" unless there were other parts too.

 

[Cranberry]

IDIs will just say well there you go, the intruder used what was handy. Well, previously they said the intruder brought the stuff and left with it. Sorry folks, you cant have it both ways.

It was a Ramsey using what was handy, just like a Ramsey used the pad and pen from the house.

I believe the Whites recognized the tape at least, and put two and two together.

I agree it's possible the tape/cord came from a painting. PR gave a painting to JR for Christmas that they were going to take to Charlevoix - who would look behind a sofa for tape or cord? not an intruder

21 LOU SMIT: This may not be exactly the
22 time to interject, but did you get a painting for
23 Christmas?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that's right.
25 LOU SMIT: Tell me about that.
0083
1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a painting of some
2 boats at anchor that Patsy had seen in, I think, a
3 local art store. It was done by a local Boulder
4 artist. And she had got me that for Christmas
5 which were going to take it up to our cottage up
6 in Michigan. It was behind the couch, I think.
7 LOU SMIT: Yeah. I was just wondering
8 where that would have been kept that evening.
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's where it was
10 the next morning. I don't know how long it had
11 been there.
12 LOU SMIT: But it's small enough to hide
13 behind the couch (INAUDIBLE)?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been behind --
15 probably about that high and not quite as wide as
16 that wall. So it was fairly large. And I recall
17 that's where she had it; behind the couch. And
18 then she got that out, that was when Christmas was
19 all over.
20 LOU SMIT: It was wrapped?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The picture was wrapped.
22 LOU SMIT: I was just wondering, like when you
23 brought the bikes back in and Patsy was already in
24 bed and then --
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
0084
1 LOU SMIT: -- I don't know if you would
2 have
3 seen something like that?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't see it. So I knew
5 it must have been there by the couch. That's my
6 assumption.

 

[ghostrighter]

Watching the show, I got to thinking about the DNA. Just going to throw this out there. Do we know who was at the Christmas party? Were all the guests DNA tested? I recall reading somewhere that JBR wasn't feeling well during the party. Did she end up laying down somewhere away from the Christmas gathering? Isn't it possible JBR was molested at that party? She would still have the DNA on her? right? If she was molested at/during the party, the molester could have promised her Santa would be visiting her later Christmas night.(possibly to scare or warn her not to tell) The molester, being afraid that JBR would spill the beans, and, if the molester were close enough to the Ramseys, they could have had a key to enter the Ramsey's house. There purpose, to eliminate JBR and put any investigation focus on anything but sexual assault of a child. Thus multiple efforts to kill her, wipe her down, write a 3 page ransom note etc. Just thinking out loud, stating an opinion, possible theory.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

Watching the show, I got to thinking about the DNA. Just going to throw this out there. Do we know who was at the Christmas party? Were all the guests DNA tested? I recall reading somewhere that JBR wasn't feeling well during the party. Did she end up laying down somewhere away from the Christmas gathering? Isn't it possible JBR was molested at that party? She would still have the DNA on her? right? If she was molested at/during the party, the molester could have promised her Santa would be visiting her later Christmas night.(possibly to scare or warn her not to tell) The molester, being afraid that JBR would spill the beans, and, if the molester were close enough to the Ramseys, they could have had a key to enter the Ramsey's house. There purpose, to eliminate JBR and put any investigation focus on anything but sexual assault of a child. Thus multiple efforts to kill her, wipe her down, write a 3 page ransom note etc. Just thinking out loud, stating an opinion, possible theory.

The problem with the DNA, among other problems, is that it was degraded. The DNA was old. It didn't come from the Christmas party that night unless it was as secondary transfer, it would not have been the killers DNA. Imagine that you open a door to a bathroom. All the DNA on the doorknob left from other people touching the doorknob is now on your hands. When you pull your pants down to use the restroom you have transferred that DNA onto your pants and your underwear. But none of the people whose DNA you just transferred to your underwear has ever personally touched your underwear. But if you're killed and your underwear is tested the DNA of many people will be found. The degradation of the DNA is the major clue that proves the DNA is old and not from first hand transfer that night from the killer.

That being said, the DNA is not from 1 single source but from multiple sources. They couldn't distinguish each individual person because of degradation, they did not have enough markers to even make a genetic profile for an accurate DNA test to match against. They could not use the DNA to make a match or to rule anyone out even if they tried, and they have tried, and wasted taxpayers money testing people for DNA from a "person" that does not exist. There is a DNA thread here on the forum that goes into more detail.

 

[singularity]

Well that is also part of my theory. I think JBR's body was initially concealed in the trunk of one of the R's cars, or possibly in the crawl space in the train room - which could be why JR put a chair in front of door, hoping to prevent anyone entering.

The chair story was preposterous and probably a lie. It doesn't even make sense taken at face value Even though other people were down there in the basement, JOhn is the only person who witnessed this magical chair. Had anyone but Smit been handling the discussion of the chair in that interview, John may have found himself in some hot water.

At that time it was a 'simple' kidnapping - their daughter had been taken so the couple would not have expected anyone to search the house. They had already told the police they had looked everywhere - why wasn't that enough?

I disagree. "Simple" kidnapping or not, every inch of that house should've been searched the nanosecond BPD arrived. They deserve no free pass for not doing it. It amazes me that the FBI didn't suggest this....especially since some people weren't buying the note as genuine from the get go.

Yes....the Ramseys should've expected the house to be searched within minutes of the 911 call. IMO Patsy and John were probably shocked that it wasn't. This is when John can start winging it and not surpisingly, goes off the grid for at least an hour. IMO he is spending much of this time down in the basement.

Unfortunately the plan went wrong. The police showed no signs of going. John knew that if a thorough search was undertaken then his daughter's body may be discovered in his car. He HAD to bring her back inside, which he did. He put her in the wine cellar - this accounts for his 'missing' time.

You and UK(and a few others) really seem to think John is moving her body to such a degree. I agree that its possible and since things aren't adding up in that basement sequence, something is going on. I have a hard time picturing JOhn even having the nerve to move her body from his car down into the basement. It is a MASSIVE risk to take and that's putting it mildly. IMO if any movement of her body takes place it is from one room in the house to another but there are risks involved with that as well.

Maybe JOhn sensed that they were neck deep in incompetence and felt the risk was worth taking. Even so, he would have to take into consideration the possibility of Fleet or someone else stumbling upon him moving her body.

I think the missing time is him doing some extra staging in the basement and if her body is moved, its moved from one spot in the basement to another.

Is there a diagram showing exactly which route John would need to take to move her body from the garage down into the wine cellar?

 

[kanzz]

So that feels super easy to confirm (or at least confirm it's likely), were the rest of her paintings backed with those materials or similar materials? It also makes sense in that the prices of those items and McWhoever's hardware store matched, but if she was routinely using them to back or hang paintings she could have bought them and NOT premeditated JBR's murder (I've never thought it was premeditated really).

Not speaking for SuperDave, but about the Reelz program language. It wasn't about PR using these items to back or hang paintings. Here is what Reelz said:

"It's now believed that the wood-framed canvasses that Patsy Ramsey purchased came wrapped and secured with a piece of duct tape and the rope may have been used to bind canvasses together for easy carrying."

But, FWIW, I do agree that PR didn't pre-meditate. But that's because I think BDI all. Pre-meditation? Probably wasn't formed very long prior to the strangulation, imo. But still, if it can be formed in the blink of an eye, then this was pre-meditated. M1.

 

[icedtea4me]

The chair story was preposterous and probably a lie. It doesn't even make sense taken at face value Even though other people were down there in the basement, JOhn is the only person who witnessed this magical chair. Had anyone but Smit been handling the discussion of the chair in that interview, John may have found himself in some hot water.


I disagree. "Simple" kidnapping or not, every inch of that house should've been searched the nanosecond BPD arrived. They deserve no free pass for not doing it. It amazes me that the FBI didn't suggest this....especially since some people weren't buying the note as genuine from the get go.

Yes....the Ramseys should've expected the house to be searched within minutes of the 911 call. IMO Patsy and John were probably shocked that it wasn't. This is when John can start winging it and not surpisingly, goes off the grid for at least an hour. IMO he is spending much of this time down in the basement.


You and UK(and a few others) really seem to think John is moving her body to such a degree. I agree that its possible and since things aren't adding up in that basement sequence, something is going on. I have a hard time picturing JOhn even having the nerve to move her body from his car down into the basement. It is a MASSIVE risk to take and that's putting it mildly. IMO if any movement of her body takes place it is from one room in the house to another but there are risks involved with that as well.

Maybe JOhn sensed that they were neck deep in incompetence and felt the risk was worth taking. Even so, he would have to take into consideration the possibility of Fleet or someone else stumbling upon him moving her body.

I think the missing time is him doing some extra staging in the basement and if her body is moved, its moved from one spot in the basement to another.

Is there a diagram showing exactly which route John would need to take to move her body from the garage down into the wine cellar?

Garage to mud room to hall to kitchen. Then up a few steps and then down the stairs to the basement is one option.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg

 

[kanzz]

The chair story was preposterous and probably a lie. It doesn't even make sense taken at face value Even though other people were down there in the basement, JOhn is the only person who witnessed this magical chair. Had anyone but Smit been handling the discussion of the chair in that interview, John may have found himself in some hot water.


I disagree. "Simple" kidnapping or not, every inch of that house should've been searched the nanosecond BPD arrived. They deserve no free pass for not doing it. It amazes me that the FBI didn't suggest this....especially since some people weren't buying the note as genuine from the get go.

Yes....the Ramseys should've expected the house to be searched within minutes of the 911 call. IMO Patsy and John were probably shocked that it wasn't. This is when John can start winging it and not surpisingly, goes off the grid for at least an hour. IMO he is spending much of this time down in the basement.


You and UK(and a few others) really seem to think John is moving her body to such a degree. I agree that its possible and since things aren't adding up in that basement sequence, something is going on. I have a hard time picturing JOhn even having the nerve to move her body from his car down into the basement. It is a MASSIVE risk to take and that's putting it mildly. IMO if any movement of her body takes place it is from one room in the house to another but there are risks involved with that as well.

Maybe JOhn sensed that they were neck deep in incompetence and felt the risk was worth taking. Even so, he would have to take into consideration the possibility of Fleet or someone else stumbling upon him moving her body.

I think the missing time is him doing some extra staging in the basement and if her body is moved, its moved from one spot in the basement to another.

Is there a diagram showing exactly which route John would need to take to move her body from the garage down into the wine cellar?

BBM - map below

The garage goes through the mud room and then into the hall right by the den/study. He would then have to pass through the kitchen and into the foyer to get to the basement door. (Good luck - with all those people wandering about.)

 

[singularity]

I'd love an estimate on how long that point A to point B trip would take.

Weren't the victims advocates hanging around the kitchen?

It would all come down to perfect timing but if any case would have that going for it.....its this one.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Singularity, why are you saying the chair story is a lie when we have photographic evidence of it from the Kolar book, which is purportedly from either a crime scene photo or video?

Edited to add: I guess what you are saying is that we only have JR's word for it that it was where it was before he moved it. Admittedly I find myself confused by the reports of what was down in the basement floor and what was actually photographed. I've seen conflicting photographs before.

 

[icedtea4me]

Ah, so is that what it means when the pages are not signed by the foreperson? That they didn't have enough votes to indict on those counts?

And stupid question, is it 1 count per page? Side note, counts can have multiple parts. [FONT=&amp]Count IV(a) [/FONT] for example. They wouldn't list "a" unless there were other parts too.

You're right. If there's a IV(a), then there has to be at least a IV(b).

 

[singularity]

Zoriah, I was referring to the odd story John told Smit about this chair, not the existence of the actual chair. Even Smit himself was a bit puzzled by it and he thinks every word out of John's mouth was pure gold.

 

[mrseeker]

Ah, so is that what it means when the pages are not signed by the foreperson? That they didn't have enough votes to indict on those counts?

And stupid question, is it 1 count per page? Side note, counts can have multiple parts. [FONT="]Count IV(a) [/FONT] for example. They wouldn't list "a" unless there were other parts too.

I don't know if more than one count is found on a page. I agree the "a" probably means a "b", etc is probably coming afterward. maybe an attorney can shed light on these questions.

 

[Miz Adventure]

BBM - map below

The garage goes through the mud room and then into the hall right by the den/study. He would then have to pass through the kitchen and into the foyer to get to the basement door. (Good luck - with all those people wandering about.)

I'm not so sure that there would have been people hanging about. I think by the time John 'went missing' all was calm. Patsy was bsuy wailing and puking and her friends were comforting her.

I think it is possible that JR had put JBR's body in his car, as a temporary measure, but there is another possibility....

Am I right in thinking that within the 'train room' there is a crawl space with a cupboard door on it?

If he had concealed JBR's body in that crawl space then that could be the reason he put the chair in front of the door, hoping nobody would bother moving it. If anyone went down there to look for JBR they would have known she couldn't be inside the train room because a chair was blocking it.

The couple most likely didn't think anyone would search the house, not after a ransom note was found. Why would they? A kidnapper ALWAYS takes his victim with him, doesn't he?

 

[chlban]

I have asked these questions before and never seem to get a direct response but I will try again.

1. Why are the only options BDI, PDI, or IDI? I think the word Intruder is misleading. Why is there no talk of an invited guest? "IGDI"
2. I agree that the RN was most likely written by PR. Would this rule out an invited guest being the perp?
3. Why does the GJ indictment against the Ramseys only point to BDI. Wasnt the indictment supposedly that J&P put JBR in an environment where she could be susceptible to child abuse? Is a child harming another child considered "child abuse"?

I believe the Ramseys are lying, no question about it. And BDI is definitley a possibility. But there are other possibilities that just don't seem to be discussed that much. I find that a little odd. JMO

They aren't discussed much anymore because the IDI's have been trying desperately for the last 20 years to convert the RDI's. As you may have noticed, it hasn't worked. IGDI is the same as IDI except possibly even more absurd. Patsy did not write that note to protect a friend, employee or step child. She wrote it to protect herself or Burke.

As for why the GJ indictment points to Burke, it is because John and/or Patsy were not indicted for murder. If the GJ did not believe either of them was the murderer, then many people believe that points to Burke. Although I still lean heavily to PDI, I agree that it does point to Burke as well.

I think the one thing the mystery Juror on 20/20 said that made sense, and sometime tends to get lost among those of us wishing for justice, is that there is no way the case could have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. However, it does seem logical that if the GJ just couldn't decide which parent was responsible, they could have indicted them both for murder. They didn't. So that does, IMO, point to Burke.

I still have my issues with that theory, although it is more than plausible. However, there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, and I dare say in the minds of most long time posters here, is that there were only four people in that house that night/morning. Period. Which of those people killed her and which ones were involved the the early staging, and who knew what and when is still debated.

However, that is also the exact reason it would have probably been impossible to convict either parent and CO law prevented convicting Burke if it was, in fact, him.