MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

[Whisper2112]

It just isn't logical, given that the police have had ample opportunity to look at the people and places closest to the victim's everyday life, given that the police have made the statement that the family is fully cooperative, given that the family has handed over all evidence that they believe to be relevant voluntarily, and handed over any additional material as requested, even if they don't understand how it could help find Amy, and has cooperated with any and all investigative activities --
Well, it just isn't logical to assume that the police are missing some bit of information tied to the house, the farm, the immediate neighborhood, or the family that we as "websleuthers" can somehow manage to uncover.

I don't assume that the MGPD are idiots or incompetents . Therefore, logic seems to dictate branching out to some other possibilities. Including what might be going on in the area at the time. (Remember, this is the kind of activity that lead to breaks in the Jacob Wetterling case).

In particular, It seems like it might be of interest that a man in his 50's seems to have either tried to fake his own death, or fell victim to foul play on Weaver Lake fifteen days after Amy disappeared. (Or something else super weird and bizarre. For those who like to obsess about stuff they think is weird, this might be a good thing to add to your repertoire, because it is WAY weirder than someone stopping for gas and using a bathroom.)

For anyone who lives in the area or knows About Weaver Lake; it is not a large or complicated body of water. If this man fell in and drowned, it is very reasonable to expect that the search efforts described would have found him.

But, after several stories (which do not give the mans' name) the stories just sort of peter out, with no resolution. No follow up, no conclusion. We don't know who this man is, if he was ever found alive, if he was ever found dead...nothing. That is profoundly weird and far more interesting than why a man would stop for gas and use the rest room on his way home from a trip to the farm (since it is pretty normal to use the restroom when you need to if you have already stopped for gas. We know that the purpose of stopping was to fill the tank, because there was a gas receipt, which was given to MGPD, which also explains why the family might not be able to post things like the gas receipt; because whatever documentation that they thought might be helpful, they handed over to the MGPD)

 

[human]

Human, this is an example of what I am talking about. You link to an article that clearly states that the Maple Grove Transit System was created when Maple Grove "opted out" of the MetroTransit system. This does not mean that no busses went to Maple Grove before 1990. All it means is that before 1990 Maple Grove was under the MTC rather than it's own transit system.

It is clear from the article that you linked to, yet you just ignore that part, and your summary could be very misleading if the reader isn't diligent to look things up on their own. Either you didn't read carefully, didn't think it through to realize you needed to look further, or you just are very passionately committed to one particular theory of the case.

Of course, it is on everyone to look into things themselves, which is why I encourage people to look things up on their own, and to read up and investigate on their own rather than relying on just my memory...so I would caution people to follow the links and to really look into what people say a link means, and don't take just the newspapers account of things as gospel either. I have been in the room when a number of interviews happened, and what shows up on the page or on the screen sometimes bears no resemblance to what was actually said, or is only true in an unseen context.

Please provide the link that there was bus service from Maple Grove to Minneapolis

 

[human]

Again, Amy's parents contest Garland's interpretation of their concerns. They have said they don't even know why he would say they said such things. So I guess I am inclined to believe that someone knows what they said themselves.

It's not necessarily "punative" to call the police if you can't find your kid and believe that a medical condition they are suffering could put them in danger. In fact, it would be negligent not to.

The fact that this might technically be classified as a "runaway" situation, does not necessarily mean what people assume it means. After all, the officer has to put something down, and they don't necessarily do it right.

Having requested a few police reports, I've seen parental abduction reports classified as "suspicious incidences" instead of deprivation of parental rights, or parental abduction, and also no NCIC entries for runaways. There is a wide degree of variance in officer training from officer to officer, and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Why would the parents say she was promiscuous and using drugs? And to have a child run away certainly means there are concerns that needed to be discussed.

 

[human]

Since Amy was spotted on the West coast which encompasses a huge area and since she was spoken to at an unknown bus station, I do not understand how such broad statements help anything.

As a minor, she was performing at a strip club but there was no follow up? No interviewing anyone at the strip club?

Everything is so secretive and anything that is reported is then cut down as false.

 

[shadowdancer]

I just feel so incredibly sorry for Amy. She was clearly very unhappy, this was obviously much more than ordinary teen angst.

Also, I doubt very much that Amy was performing at that strip club. It just doesn't have any ring of truth to it.

 

[Whisper2112]

Why would the parents say she was promiscuous and using drugs? And to have a child run away certainly means there are concerns that needed to be discussed.

They say they never said anything of the sort. Again, I would tend to believe they know what they said and are a more reliable source for what they thought and said than what is reported by a reporter telling you what someone else said they thought and said.

 

[Whisper2112]

Since Amy was spotted on the West coast which encompasses a huge area and since she was spoken to at an unknown bus station, I do not understand how such broad statements help anything.

As a minor, she was performing at a strip club but there was no follow up? No interviewing anyone at the strip club?

Everything is so secretive and anything that is reported is then cut down as false.

Again, I have more trust in the police to assume they did not follow up. Especially if the police were the ones that informed the family of the tip. Why would the police not follow up on a tip? Just because they didn't publicize the results of an ongoing investigation, I would not assume they were negligent.

 

[Whisper2112]

Please provide the link that there was bus service from Maple Grove to Minneapolis

You already did that when you posted the Wikipedia article stating that the maple grove service was formed to "opt out" of the MTC. That means that previously, bus service was provided by the MTC.

 

[Damarna]

You already did that when you posted the Wikipedia article stating that the maple grove service was formed to "opt out" of the MTC. That means that previously, bus service was provided by the MTC.

Or it could be read as they opted out of the expansion into Maple Grove by MTC.

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[BethAnn777]

Again, I have more trust in the police to assume they did not follow up. Especially if the police were the ones that informed the family of the tip. Why would the police not follow up on a tip? Just because they didn't publicize the results of an ongoing investigation, I would not assume they were negligent.

So you assume the police followed up on the strip club tip but don't assume they have the ability to make an accurate police report?

 

[Damarna]

Something that's been bothering me.... One thing people seem to question is WHY did Marshall stop at the gas station that was 2 miles from home? I was thinking it was to get gas for the next work day. Would make sense after a bit of a trip to Isanti. But I don't really see that specifically mentioned. I see that he stopped to use the bathroom. Hey, I've stopped at the place 5 miles from my home before in an urgent situation so not knocking him for that. In a Daily Mail article it even had her mom saying he stopped to do "his business." Do we know for sure either way?

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[Whisper2112]

Something that's been bothering me.... One thing people seem to question is WHY did Marshall stop at the gas station that was 2 miles from home? I was thinking it was to get gas for the next work day. Would make sense after a bit of a trip to Isanti. But I don't really see that specifically mentioned. I see that he stopped to use the bathroom. Hey, I've stopped at the place 5 miles from my home before in an urgent situation so not knocking him for that. In a Daily Mail article it even had her mom saying he stopped to do "his business." Do we know for sure either way?

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Yes, that is another example of poor reporting. While Amy's parents say he stopped to get gas, and then used the bathroom (at one point saying that they gave the gas receipt to the MGPD in order to help them in establishing the timeline of the trip from Isanti to Maple Grove)

Still, for some reason, the reporter says he stopped to use the restroom, when according to Amy's family, the restroom was just a secondary part of the stop. He actually stopped to fill up the tank. We know this due to the existence of the gas receipt that was given to the MGPD.

It's pretty simple, really.

 

[Damarna]

Yes, that is another example of poor reporting. While Amy's parents say he stopped to get gas, and then used the bathroom (at one point saying that they gave the gas receipt to the MGPD in order to help them in establishing the timeline of the trip from Isanti to Maple Grove)

Still, for some reason, the reporter says he stopped to use the restroom, when according to Amy's family, the restroom was just a secondary part of the stop. He actually stopped to fill up the tank. We know this due to the existence of the gas receipt that was given to the MGPD.

It's pretty simple, really.

I get what you are saying, Whisper....
But do you have a link for this? Seems I can find more MSM saying nothing about the need for gas and only the use of the bathroom.

If you are getting this info directly from her mom or dad or are a family member - I would hope you could get verified. No one here (except the admin) need to know WHO the verified insider is. Once verified that person need not offer MSM links. Without question.

I fear that what will happen is people will begin to ignore this thread feeling comfortable with the (IMO) feeling of their posts being challenged when it is backed by MSM. I don't want that to happen. I've seen miracles happen here on WS. I've been a part of some that have happened in Minnesota. I do not want any attention to Amy to be diminished when it doesn't have to. I am hoping we are all on the same page.

I am not trying to be oppositional, argumentative....I'm just feeling frustrated that it seems there is this loop that needs to break of people defending themselves.

Again all just my opinion and thoughts.

Bring Amy Home!



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[AnnieOakley]

LE seems to feel the timeline presented is valid (they haven't said otherwise). So, Amy and Dad leave the farm together, stop to get gas and dad uses restroom. Is it possible that Amy, as young teens do, grew impatient waiting in the car and decided to walk home? If that's possible, then I am wondering if the likely routes to walk home were checked?

A number of scenarios based on the info presented could have happened: Medical incident- passed out from seizure or grew disoriented and walked in wrong direction; Taken by a local SO as she walked (random opportunity?); Ran into bullies from school and had altercation?

I'm assuming her friends from school were interviewed- I'm curious to know what they were able to contribute. Was anyone paying particular attention to Amy, positive or negative? Anyone who creeped her out, or perhaps she liked? Young girls don't always share these things with their parents, but they might with their girlfriends...

 

[Whisper2112]

Or it could be read as they opted out of the expansion into Maple Grove by MTC.

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SInce tomorrow is MLK day, I will call MTC pn Tuesday and ask them if they had service to Maple Grove in 1989, or reasonably close enough for a couple of 12 year olds to walk to a stop from Maple Grove. Alternatively, if Amy's friend were in crisis, and determined to walk, it's not out of the realm of possibility to walk 12 miles, and a child as loyal and caring as Amy's parents describe her as being would likely stick with a friend in crisis and help her get there.

 

[Whisper2112]

I get what you are saying, Whisper....
But do you have a link for this? Seems I can find more MSM saying nothing about the need for gas and only the use of the bathroom.

If you are getting this info directly from her mom or dad or are a family member - I would hope you could get verified. No one here (except the admin) need to know WHO the verified insider is. Once verified that person need not offer MSM links. Without question.

I fear that what will happen is people will begin to ignore this thread feeling comfortable with the (IMO) feeling of their posts being challenged when it is backed by MSM. I don't want that to happen. I've seen miracles happen here on WS. I've been a part of some that have happened in Minnesota. I do not want any attention to Amy to be diminished when it doesn't have to. I am hoping we are all on the same page.

I am not trying to be oppositional, argumentative....I'm just feeling frustrated that it seems there is this loop that needs to break of people defending themselves.

Again all just my opinion and thoughts.

Bring Amy Home!



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I will go back through the thread again to find it. I know that Susan Sr. did talk about the gas receipt in this thread, and was clear that the purpose of the stop was to gas up the car, and that the gas receipt and the sighting of the neighbor who saw them leave the farm were used to establish the timeline.

 

[Damarna]

I will go back through the thread again to find it. I know that Susan Sr. did talk about the gas receipt in this thread, and was clear that the purpose of the stop was to gas up the car, and that the gas receipt and the sighting of the neighbor who saw them leave the farm were used to establish the timeline.

Yes...A poster indicating she is Susan SR did indeed day that. My point again, not a verified insider so simply asking for a link.



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[Whisper2112]

Yes...A poster indicating she is Susan SR did indeed day that. My point again, not a verified insider so simply asking for a link.



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Ah, I see. No, but I do know that there is a verified insider (Renu) on this thread who could verify it. She hasn't been active on this thread for a while now. No doubt finding more fruitful ways to invest her time and energy. I'm about there myself.

 

[human]

Can anyone identify any info that could be used to revive this case?

Putting posters in Maple Grove is one option.

What else is there?

I find the paucity of information very unusual.

 

[Whisper2112]

I called the MTC and asked about service in 1989. They were unable to give me much information, but suggested I call Maple Grove Transit.

I called Maple Grove Transit, and got this info:

The city of Maple Grove filed to "opt out" of MTC in 1989, and the application was finalized in 1990. During that time, there was no interruption in bus service between Maple Grove and Minneapolis.

There were three express routes between Maple Grove and Minneapolis at that time:
45B
45F
17
There were also two local routs between Maple Grove and Minneapolis:
45C
33

They said it was very possible to travel by bus from Maple Grove to Minneapolis at that time via mass transit.
For more detailed information, they recommended contacting Aaron Isaacs, a transit historian who is widely recognized as an expert in transportation issues in the area. They did not have contact Info for Mr Isaacs, but said that he should be easy to reach if I had more detailed questions, possibly through the Minnesota Transportation Museum, which he had a hand in creating. They didn't know if he was still affiliated with the museum, but were sure that they would know how to contact him.