GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

[Squamous]

It appears to me that IS was genuinely dim enough to think that the police would just make a record and leave it at that. The police must have known very quickly that HB never left that house.

 

[ColourPurple]

Couldn't help thinking when reading this earlier. Wonder if HB had been checking her bank accounts that Monday morning...

By the way, they said HB had a second iPad that they didn't have the password for. Did they ever access that in the end or what happened to it?

http://dailym.ai/2iL0QCW*

I'm thinking something like that might have happened to trigger IS into killing Helen too. Maybe she didn't even know about the existing standing order, checked her account and thought WTF is that? and confronted him. I had thought that maybe she caught him trying to increase the amount but I think timewise that might be later than the time police think Helen died.

Not sure if they ever accessed the other ipad. I know there was something in the news about Apple generally being unhelpful when it comes to helping police access locked devices. I also wonder if police were ever able to access his deleted computer info or phone records for the phone he claims to have lost.He was certainly tried to hide something from them

 

[Cherwell]

I've just updated my post with more of the police evidence. It does look as though they were aware of the tank by Tuesday July 12, but delayed until Friday as they needed a Company to come and drain it.

Yes, it's now clear that the police were on to it. Sounds like they didn't tell the neighbours more than they needed to know, which is understandable and par for the course IME, but it led the neighbours to think the police had been unaware.

 

[ColourPurple]

Just to bring this new thread up to date, Zopiclone can be bought in the UK on the internet. One is asked to conduct an online consultation but that should not be too difficult for someone who has taken it before and how do we know there is a real physician at the other end?

https://www.ukmeds.co.uk/treatments/sleeping-tablets/zopiclone/

This link provides it without any sort of interrogation.

https://www.sleepingpillsuk.com/zopiclone-7-5mg.htmls

That could be why his computer had been wiped clean but I also think he may have had some from when he was first prescribed them years earlier. Started off using those on Helen, then went to the DR for more.

 

[ColourPurple]

Someone mentioned in the last thread that panadol was found in her body during the post mortem. So IS lied about her taking pills. Also if it was panadiene then the codiene could have caused the overdose, assuming that the codiene is unstable and broke down before the post mortem (don't know if that is possible). And if the panadiene was in capsule form then could he not hide the zopiclone (ground up) in a capsule? Although you would soon recognise that every time you took panadol you fell asleep! All this of course is just wild speculation.

I think it was paracetamol. I think one of the side effects of the zopiclone was headaches so she may have used paracetamol to treat those. Or of course he might have given her paracetamol without her knowing too. It could be that she was OK taking paracetamol but avoided anything stronger, preferring to use herbal remedies.

 

[Alyce]

Another lie, about the papers for the solicitor that he said he had to go back for.

He said that he was in a rush and realised he had left half the papers behind, and so went back to the house to get them. At first I thought this could mean that he left home at 2:45 and on his way to the doctors realised he hadn't picked up everything, turned around to go back and get them, and then went back out again - to the doctors first. But he also said that the last trip he made was to the solicitors and he went there twice. This means that on his version he must have gone to the doctors, then the solicitors, then gone back to get the rest of the papers and returned for a second time to the solicitors, meaning he was at the house sometime between 3:07 when he left the doctors and 5pm.

I hope the prosecution points this out to the jury because his account cannot be reconciled but it isn't that obvious.

[FONT=&][/FONT][FONT=&]His recorded police interview -

“I changed my doctor’s appointment to 3pm. You can check if you want.[/FONT][FONT=&] I do know the solicitors was last [on the day].

[/FONT][FONT=&]“I dashed out because I was late. I realised I’d only taken half of the solicitors papers, so I rushed back, saw the other paperwork on the side.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]“Then I went back to the solicitors and came home. Helen wasn’t here, then I thought she had gone to Broadstairs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]“I remember thinking ‘she really has gone’.


Solicitor Timothy Penn said -

[/FONT][FONT=&]He reiterated that Stewart came in to the solicitor’s office on April 11, 2016, and it was possible that Stewart came into his office to give him the box of files.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]“I don’t recall him coming back in later the same day with more paperwork, but this could have happened.[/FONT]

His secretary Celia Rolf said -

[FONT=&]“I don’t recall seeing him on April 11, 2016.*
[/FONT]

He also told the police on 15th April that he had asked Helen on his way out what she wanted for tea, and although not specifically saying why, he added that he went to Morrisons. One might think it was to buy food for tea. Notably his memory of going to Morrisons had gone by 22nd April. On 22nd April he told police that when he picked up the Chinese takeaway he thought Helen could have had some if she was there because they had discussed it. He never mentioned that on 15th and it would be quite important if Helen had said 'why don't we have a Chinese tonight', if she was planning on going away.

Well spotted.

So these are my best guess timings.

We know he leaves the doctors at 3.07
Allow a 15 - 20 minute drive to get to the Solicitors.
3.30 - 3.40 at Solicitors, during which time he realises he doesnt have all the papers
3.40 drives back to the house
3.45 -3.50 back at house - collects the papers and departs again for the Solicitors.

At this point, despite being in a hurry to get to the solicitors, it seems he goes to Morrisons first, because he does say that the solicitors is his last visit of the day, before returning home at 5pm

So, presumably not having had any conversation with Helen when he stopped by earlier to collect the missing papers, he then comes back at 5pm, does not call out to Helen that he is home and then does not see the note, in the hallway, for another 15 minutes ( although he did get a bit vague on timings so could have been less than this ).
And the note did move from the hallway location up to Helen's desk at some stage in his statement.

Then, he doesnt mention calling her mobile, but says he goes to bed and sleeps. Before heading off to the bowls game, still not bothering to even send a text to Helen as far as we know.

I do wish the solicitors could remember a bit more about ISs visits that day. Surely if he had forgotten some of the papers first time round, there would have been a discussion about this ? Or is he trying to say he realised he had forgotten them as he arrived there, so turned round and went back to the house without speaking to anyone at the Solicitors.

 

[ColourPurple]

He just seems like such an oaf. Helen was witty and sarcastic and spoke as she found, and classy and stylish with a taste for the finer things in life. He late husband dressed in designer suits and classic statement ties and ran an extremely successful business. Helen loved the London life, the culture on her doorstep, she had her brother and his partner in the city. I just want an alternative reality for her where she gradually came to terms with he husband's death, moved on to a gorgeous little flat in Muswell Hill and lived her own Helen-ish life of dinners out and theatre and friends rather than being hoodwinked by this horrible man who wheedled his way in and just took her over. I think not working and not having dependent children probably meant he could "be there" for her when she needed it in way that blinded her to the fact that he is a total idiot. There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence that her family and friends liked or saw him at all, they can talk about what Helen thought of him but not their own feelings, her beloved brother had only been their house once which strikes me as very sad.

How did they actually meet. Somebody posted a tweet I think from helen that said they didnt; meet on the widowed blog/group but found out later that they were both members. Is that correct? I was wondering whether he had read all about Helen via the blog/group and then orchestrated a meeting , pretending to have just bumped into her without knowing about her past or anything else. If he did know all her inner thoughts and feelings from reading her posts before they met then it would be easy for him to pretend to be exactly what she was looking for and to really seem in tune with her.

 

[ColourPurple]

Well spotted.

So these are my best guess timings.

We know he leaves the doctors at 3.07
Allow a 15 - 20 minute drive to get to the Solicitors.
3.30 - 3.40 at Solicitors, during which time he realises he doesnt have all the papers
3.40 drives back to the house
3.45 -3.50 back at house - collects the papers and departs again for the Solicitors.

At this point, despite being in a hurry to get to the solicitors, it seems he goes to Morrisons first, because he does say that the solicitors is his last visit of the day, before returning home at 5pm

So, presumably not having had any conversation with Helen when he stopped by earlier to collect the missing papers, he then comes back at 5pm, does not call out to Helen that he is home and then does not see the note, in the hallway, for another 15 minutes ( although he did get a bit vague on timings so could have been less than this ).
And the note did move from the hallway location up to Helen's desk at some stage in his statement.

Then, he doesnt mention calling her mobile, but says he goes to bed and sleeps. Before heading off to the bowls game, still not bothering to even send a text to Helen as far as we know.

I do wish the solicitors could remember a bit more about ISs visits that day. Surely if he had forgotten some of the papers first time round, there would have been a discussion about this ? Or is he trying to say he realised he had forgotten them as he arrived there, so turned round and went back to the house without speaking to anyone at the Solicitors.

Then we've also got to add the visit/s to the tip and didnt he at one stage claim that he must have thrown Helen's note away at the tip, even though the visit to the tip was before he would have discovered the note?

 

[Squamous]

How did they actually meet. Somebody posted a tweet I think from helen that said they didnt; meet on the widowed blog/group but found out later that they were both members. Is that correct? I was wondering whether he had read all about Helen via the blog/group and then orchestrated a meeting , pretending to have just bumped into her without knowing about her past or anything else. If he did know all her inner thoughts and feelings from reading her posts before they met then it would be easy for him to pretend to be exactly what she was looking for and to really seem in tune with her.

I assumed it was on a closed Facebook group for widow(er)s of some sort but I don't think the exact one has been mentioned (probably to the relief of its members). I didn't get the impression it was any sort of organised group like Widowed And Young.

 

[Alyce]

How did they actually meet. Somebody posted a tweet I think from helen that said they didnt; meet on the widowed blog/group but found out later that they were both members. Is that correct? I was wondering whether he had read all about Helen via the blog/group and then orchestrated a meeting , pretending to have just bumped into her without knowing about her past or anything else. If he did know all her inner thoughts and feelings from reading her posts before they met then it would be easy for him to pretend to be exactly what she was looking for and to really seem in tune with her.

They did meet through an on line widows/widowers forum. The tweet was just saying that they did not meet via the WAY forum ( Widowed and Young ) - it was another one ( Merry Widows I think, but am not 100% on that name )

 

[Interested Bystander]

That could be why his computer had been wiped clean but I also think he may have had some from when he was first prescribed them years earlier. Started off using those on Helen, then went to the DR for more.

Could be. However would they not be anything up to 8-9 years old? They would be out of date but would that bother him? I have forgotten exactly when his first wife died but he was given them after that event. The Doc he saw in Royston said his records showed he had taken it before and had no problems. I am assuming this was not during the time he had been living in Royston (3 years ?) but could be wrong. Anyone else pick up on this?

 

[icemaiden65]

I so hope the police impounded/removed his computer and got their guys to take a look at it. Even on the open market there's free basic recovery software available and the police forensics chaps/chapesses would have much more sophisticated recovery means available - I would hope! Wiping a computer doesn't clean it of the buried (sorry!) data - it merely removes the indexing to that data - which can be restored as I said. His only surefire way would have been to do a total write-over several times (seven or so is the standard) using special software. Even reformatting leaves the data there, albeit unaddressed/indexed. That was my line of work and the only way I ever trust erasing data from media is to physically destroy it (yup, sledgehammer to a hard drive) - so there should be information lurking still.

 

[Tortoise]

I think he killed her that day because the longer he left it the more money she would spend and the less would be left for him to live off. Helen was wealthy but a lot was tied up in properties that he might not be able to sell for quite a few years, until she could be registered as presumed dead. He would also presumably want to continue living in the house, so that isn't cash he could spend. He therefore had an eye on the liquid assets. Helen had just bought herself a Jeep, how much do they cost, in the region of 30K I would think. Then she was planning their wedding. Would that be another chunk of say 20K disappearing? What if she'd booked Brocket Hall, the caterers, booked a honeymoon, bought their attire, and then disappeared. I doubt he'd get much of a refund.

I really think it was perfect timing in his eyes. He'd just had an op, so could play on his weakness. He had an appointment slap bang in the middle of the morning - his alibi. He'd done his test run the previous week and she'd been out cold for 5 hours. The number of people here who are querying whether it could have been planned is exactly how he engineered it to look IMO, to cast doubt. He needed Helen to organise the property papers ready for the solicitor, so that money would (in his mind) be guaranteed to top up the coffers.

He was not thrown by this. It was planned. He was running around that day like a Spring chicken. It energised him. running to the tip with a duvet which would have weighed about 3-4kg, (couldn't lift a dinner tray?), tucking into a Chinese meal. I don't give him the benefit of any doubt. He is as cold and calculating as they come, and I don't care what glowing reports his friends gave, even Helen didn't know him and was planning to marry him, after 5 years.

 

[JerricaBenton]

Just wanted to post my thanks to those keeping the thread updated with live tweets during the trial, very much appreciated. :tyou:

 

[ColourPurple]

How did they actually meet. Somebody posted a tweet I think from helen that said they didnt; meet on the widowed blog/group but found out later that they were both members. Is that correct? I was wondering whether he had read all about Helen via the blog/group and then orchestrated a meeting , pretending to have just bumped into her without knowing about her past or anything else. If he did know all her inner thoughts and feelings from reading her posts before they met then it would be easy for him to pretend to be exactly what she was looking for and to really seem in tune with her.

I assumed it was on a closed Facebook group for widow(er)s of some sort but I don't think the exact one has been mentioned (probably to the relief of its members). I didn't get the impression it was any sort of organised group like Widowed And Young.

They did meet through an on line widows/widowers forum. The tweet was just saying that they did not meet via the WAY forum ( Widowed and Young ) - it was another one ( Merry Widows I think, but am not 100% on that name )

Ah thanks, so he didn't orchestrate a real life meeting but if Helen had opened up a lot online he would have known a lot about her before making his move. It would also be easier for him to present himself a certain way online, to fit in with what she was looking for. Also the online meeting kind of explains the apparent odd matching to me. For one she wouldn't have heard his actual voice at first, and would have fallen for his online/written voice.

 

[Squamous]

I was wondering about the hard drive, I had assumed that IS the "expert" would have no trouble genuinely wiping it, but thanks to the links to his websites on the previous thread I now seriously doubt he would have a clue. The police refer to recovering "a fragment of data". I have begun to wonder if he physically damaged it somehow.

 

[Tortoise]

Well spotted.

So these are my best guess timings.

We know he leaves the doctors at 3.07
Allow a 15 - 20 minute drive to get to the Solicitors.
3.30 - 3.40 at Solicitors, during which time he realises he doesnt have all the papers
3.40 drives back to the house
3.45 -3.50 back at house - collects the papers and departs again for the Solicitors.

At this point, despite being in a hurry to get to the solicitors, it seems he goes to Morrisons first, because he does say that the solicitors is his last visit of the day, before returning home at 5pm

So, presumably not having had any conversation with Helen when he stopped by earlier to collect the missing papers, he then comes back at 5pm, does not call out to Helen that he is home and then does not see the note, in the hallway, for another 15 minutes ( although he did get a bit vague on timings so could have been less than this ).
And the note did move from the hallway location up to Helen's desk at some stage in his statement.

Then, he doesnt mention calling her mobile, but says he goes to bed and sleeps. Before heading off to the bowls game, still not bothering to even send a text to Helen as far as we know.

I do wish the solicitors could remember a bit more about ISs visits that day. Surely if he had forgotten some of the papers first time round, there would have been a discussion about this ? Or is he trying to say he realised he had forgotten them as he arrived there, so turned round and went back to the house without speaking to anyone at the Solicitors.

I don't think he went to the solicitors twice. I think that was his trip to the tip and he put in the part about going back to the house in case his car was picked up on cctv going back that way.

It's massive that he has put in a trip back to the house after going to the solicitors, because he has always said he was out from 2:45 to 5pm, and going back to the house in between those times would have coincided with Helen leaving. Even if she wasn't there, he would have noticed Boris not coming to greet him. He can't have a visit to the house with no explanation of the state of the house or status of Helen's whereabouts at whatever time that was supposed to have been.

 

[ColourPurple]

Could be. However would they not be anything up to 8-9 years old? They would be out of date but would that bother him? I have forgotten exactly when his first wife died but he was given them after that event. The Doc he saw in Royston said his records showed he had taken it before and had no problems. I am assuming this was not during the time he had been living in Royston (3 years ?) but could be wrong. Anyone else pick up on this?

He was prescribed them twice,2005 and 2010(after his wife died).I don't think he would care they were out of date. Wonder what was going on in 2005 for him to need them (or ask to be prescribed them) though

[FONT=&quot]Stewart had previously been supplied Zopiclone in August 2010 and June 2005, jurors heard[/FONT]

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/traces-sleeping-drug-found-helen-12439381

 

[sleepyhead25]

I think that bit might also be related to his later shock when they pitched up with a search party and cadaver dog. Strange too that he seemed taken aback that they might want the address of the Kent cottage.

What struck me was that he seemed to have no perception of how other people are looking at things, he's so caught up in himself. The call taker clearly didn't know where Broadstairs or Margate are but he didn't seem to pick up on that enough to say "it's in Kent". There was another example too that escapes me.

I found the contrast horrible between him not knowing her height ("she must have told me at some point..." - is that not an odd thing to say?!) and the centimetre-accurate measure of her height taken at her post-mortem. Poor woman.

I think some of IS's shock and disbelief having been asked for the cottage address probably also came from him already being aware of Helen and Boris's whereabouts.

Family/Friends had already been to the cottage to look for Helen and there was no sign of her so why the need for the Police? How would it benefit him?

Had she actually gone away and in her note it hinted to that being where she was heading of course Police would want to go there as part of their initial enquiries

Anyone with half a brain would have had the address ready for them if it had been a genuine missing person enquiry.

But he knew where she was so had no details ready - he didn't want her to be found.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think he killed her that day because the longer he left it the more money she would spend and the less would be left for him to live off. Helen was wealthy but a lot was tied up in properties that he might not be able to sell for quite a few years, until she could be registered as presumed dead. He would also presumably want to continue living in the house, so that isn't cash he could spend. He therefore had an eye on the liquid assets. Helen had just bought herself a Jeep, how much do they cost, in the region of 30K I would think. Then she was planning their wedding. Would that be another chunk of say 20K disappearing? What if she'd booked Brocket Hall, the caterers, booked a honeymoon, bought their attire, and then disappeared. I doubt he'd get much of a refund.

I really think it was perfect timing in his eyes. He'd just had an op, so could play on his weakness. He had an appointment slap bang in the middle of the morning - his alibi. He'd done his test run the previous week and she'd been out cold for 5 hours. The number of people here who are querying whether it could have been planned is exactly how he engineered it to look IMO, to cast doubt. He needed Helen to organise the property papers ready for the solicitor, so that money would (in his mind) be guaranteed to top up the coffers.

He was not thrown by this. It was planned. He was running around that day like a Spring chicken. It energised him. running to the tip with a duvet which would have weighed about 3-4kg, (couldn't lift a dinner tray?), tucking into a Chinese meal. I don't give him the benefit of any doubt. He is as cold and calculating as they come, and I don't care what glowing reports his friends gave, even Helen didn't know him and was planning to marry him, after 5 years.

Wow, good point. I hadn't thought that the expense of the wedding could be a factor but to somebody motivated by money it would be. Going by how he described broadstairs as theirs rather than Helen's I bet he saw it as her wasting "their" (read HIS) money .

The only doubt I have about it being planned for that day, is that doing it the same day that the sale was due to be agreed and then changing the standing order that very same day makes it look really suspicious and make shim the number 1 suspect. It would have made more sense to do those things first (days/week in advance) so that her disappearance wasnt linked to the same day as those things.