IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #54

[St. Anthony2017]

Is anyone theorizing that these homicides may have been perpetratated by a member/s of LE or possibly a "wannabe"
cop?

just curious.

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The only suspicious semi-Le was the volunteer fireman who we can't discuss now. Moo

 

[Falling Down]

The Gray Huze videos at the beginning of every thread are great. Have you seen them? And the helicopter footage the day the girls were found plus some great drone footage on you tube. Sorry I don't have links.

[video=youtube;DZzBCyLSI0E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZzBCyLSI0E[/video]

 

[Idareyato]

Was Libby's phone found? Cod? Does le believe the girls were killed where they were found? And yes...here it is...drum roll..is RL under suspicion???

Is their belief of a knowing accomplice after the fact/accessory to murder that was not at the scene---(gag order), Do they think someone close to the killer is scared of the consequence to tell, thinking of the danger if he stays free, or walks? (probably gag ordered0)---Do they feel the necessity to withhold so much evidence is hurting the case? ( assuming higher officials of court make the rules)...3 items.

 

[Peace777]

If I had to guess I would say it would be about a 220 mile or more walk to LG's mother's home.

That would be quite a ways to go and they would need a ride IF that was a possibility of where the girls might be or have gone too. So I wonder why the 1 grandpa would even bring that possibility up? Has LG's real mom given any interviews? Just wondering

 

[MistyWaters]

I think peel meant which searchers missed finding the girls at the creek edge.i.e.who searched that area the first night and said it was clear .

There was no organized grid search the first night. That occurred the following morning when the search was based from the fire station. So that first evening, LE, family and friends were looking for live girls in more locations than just the river.

When you refer to "searchers", just curious who do you mean?

 

[cluciano63]

I am guessing since LE had video, then audio, so quickly that BG did not participate in hanging flyers, any vigils or events etc...if he even lives nearby.

 

[Falling Down]

I'm not sure why some are so baffled as to how one adult male could have easily gained control over two 13 yr old girls?

This question has come up a few times and has also been answered. I did some research pertaining to this specific scenario and found that more "successful" killers oftentimes target more than one person, or target families because it is Easier for the killer to control victims because they use the inherent love the victims have for one another to manipulate and better control the situation. Here is a quote on that very topic via https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201311/how-serial-killers-get-away-their-murders:

"Finally, as contradictory as it sounds, there are unsolved cases of killers involving entire families. One killer told me it was easier to kill more than one victim at a time. He said it can be easier to control victims by threatening their friends and family. Parents will do anything for their children, including agreeing to be tied up. He also said police are usually so mortified by the scene that mistakes can be made. So strangely, those that target families and more than one victim at once have been known to get away with multiple murders. If they are in control enough to keep quiet about the crimes, they are less likely to be caught."

Taking control of and apprehending two or more people is seemingly easier to do than just targeting one person.

*Please see the multiple accounts of Dennis Rader (he killed families), Ted Bundy, The Manson Family, The Zodiac Killer, Edmund Kemper, Danny Rolling *Gainsville Slayings, Donald Gaskins, etc... to see how and why killers sometimes choose to target more than one victim at a time.

LE described that A+L were controlled and manipulated by the love they had for one another; thus, this very scenario I have described above was confirmed by LE.

I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning but, besides the fact A+L loved each other, they were for all intents and purposes, just children. Children are way more vulnerable for obvious reasons and can be easily controlled in most circumstances.

Also, it has also discussed how/why the killer left Liberty's phone? ... I think she dropped it on purpose somewhere hoping it would be found... (Afterall, She was very smart and maybe she knew the killer would want to destroy it if he found it and she knew she was recording him.) I could imagine it would take a lot of time to scour the woods and the underbrush looking for it, maybe the killer just couldn't find it.

One more thing: I personally think the girls were left where they were killed. I do think it would be very difficult to find them in the very dark woods... There was moonlight and flashlights but even if the killer scattered leaves over them, I think it would be hard to locate them in such a densely wooded area in pitch black darkness. I also don't understand why it's so hard to fathom why they "should have" been found the night they went missing? I'm sure without light you probably couldn't see your hand in front of your face at night ... It just seems plausible that frantic searching in a very dark and secluded place could invariably leave some room for not readily or easily discovering the girls' bodies.

I've wondered about the perp's MO, from the first week. Judging by what LE folks let loose within the first week or so, they did, too.

MOO is this was a well thought out crime. In my book, there was no way this was an amateur. The perp or perps were counting on folks not looking for the girls with any sense of urgency, in those early hours.

 

[Jabarn]

MOO: I think he knew about the cell phone, and I've wondered if he used it as part of his crime...to document it in a way and maybe even leave a message on it for LE. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that someone--especially someone L&A's age--would not have a mobile.

The above is just my opinion.

I wonder about that too. But if the suspect is much older, he may not have an understanding of cell phones.

I also know there are theories here the girls may have been lured through social media to meet someone on the bridge.

I think there would be an Internet trail of evidence if it were the latter, and we wouldn't even have to be here discussing this case.

 

[mpnola]

We could research and discuss the topography of the crime scene area?




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If you search Bob Saccamano (I'm not sure if thats the right spelling of the last name), he posted a lot in the beginning. All of his maps were AMAZING! And it was topography and actually showed the arrows of the angle of the hills. I was going to link you to a post that I did many threads in that linked back to many of his map posts (because someone else was mentioning this exact thing), but apparently Websleuths now only lets you see very few of your past posts. So, I can't get you my post. You will have to search for him. Maybe find him as a member and look at his posts. Not sure if WS past posts are now on a time limit or a number. I wish that didn't exist because I often have to go back and find info from my own posts. For them to be gone from my profile makes that impossible.

 

[SomeoneElse333]

I wonder about that too. But if the suspect is much older, he may not have an understanding of cell phones.

I also know there are theories here the girls may have been lured through social media to meet someone on the bridge.

I think there would be an Internet trail of evidence if it were the latter, and we wouldn't even have to be here discussing this case.

I know a family of siblings who range in age from 85-94, and they're crazy proficient on their mobiles. I think if BG is a Baby Boomer or close to being one, he probably knows how to use a mobile.

Now Snapchat and other SM types of technology are other issues...

Just moo. ☺️

 

[DrOrchid]

Well, ever since I read someone's post earlier today about why would the BG leave the cell phone there knowing it would incriminate him, it made me wonder if there was some sort of blackmail involved regarding LE. I only say this because of the tight lip on the details of this crime compared to most others and LE's comments regarding how unusual the case is.

 

[Jethro4WS]

As far as we know from what has been released by a collaborated effort from the local and state police, with guidance from the FBI, the picture of the guy on the bridge is the only suspect. That would lead me to think the voice capture released by this collaborative effort is likely that of the only suspect identified. While no one has come forward to identify him, I would say it it likely the image and voice are the one, lone suspect. I am stymied with the reward so high, no one has come forward to name him successfully.

Why could that be? Is he so off the radar that no one knows him? Is he so technically ignorant to not know what a cell phone with these capabilities could do?

Trying to put it all together and understand why he would not see the importance of a teen girl's phone and what evidence it could provide versus how he has not been identified. All I can think tonight is he must be completely off the grid.

I have mentioned this on the threads before. One of the most critical pieces of information that LE is holding back is whether or not they know there was only one person involved. There are articles that you can Google that say that LE has acknowledged there could be more than one person involved that go back to Feb 21st and Feb 22nd.

The reason why that is critical is because if it turns out that there are at least two individuals involved and one of them is BG and the other is DTH-Guy then they are cutting off potential tips and leads from the public because you may have a person that is thinking hey DTH-Guy sounds like John Doe, but dang it, doesn't look like BG at all and conversely there is might be someone that thinks BG looks like Rob Roe but his voice is definitely not DTH-Guy.

The consequence is that people who could hand up the right names to LE never make that call. If it turns out that there is more than one person involved in this LE has done a disservice to the public and to their own case by not making it known. And further if it there are more than one involved and LE releases it later it won't generate many leads because the case will have been long out of the media attention and that new information wouldn't suddenly spark media attention like the case had at the beginning.

Also, another point I will make is that the further you get away from Delphi in distance the less likely someone will think it is their neighbor that just so happens to look like BG. They probably never even heard of Delphi before this and would assume that neighbor never heard of it either let alone had gone there and murdered two girls.

Overall there are probably a number of things that LE could release that won't jeopardize their case in any way that might generate the lead that gets this case solved. Holding on to almost everything like they are in possession of the Ark of the Covenant hasn't gotten them anywhere. I believe they are no closer to the identify of the killer(s) than they were at 12:10pm on February 14th, 2017. So far their secrets have no value whatsoever sitting in file folders and boxes in secure rooms.

They need to be a bit more forthcoming.

 

[Peace777]

I'm wondering about MP's comments about "the phone" was pinging was it "around town" or "towers"?. When would this info have been known by LE? If LE knew about phone pings early, then maybe they and family thought the girls were just out and about in town? But then I seem to remember some mention of there being no phone signal for "the phone" at 5:30? I'm getting confused on searches, phones, and where the phone pinged and when?

 

[Idareyato]

If you search Bob Saccamano (I'm not sure if thats the right spelling of the last name), he posted a lot in the beginning. All of his maps were AMAZING! And it was topography and actually showed the arrows of the angle of the hills. I was going to link you to a post that I did many threads in that linked back to many of his map posts (because someone else was mentioning this exact thing), but apparently Websleuths now only lets you see very few of your past posts. So, I can't get you my post. You will have to search for him. Maybe find him as a member and look at his posts. Not sure if WS past posts are now on a time limit or a number. I wish that didn't exist because I often have to go back and find info from my own posts. For them to be gone from my profile makes that impossible.

If you go to FAQ there are instructions for time posts, and a link for special requests--.I still have skippy letters etc. because I can't locate Java Script to disengage.. HElp-..

 

[tomvansac]

Yes that seems very plausible. But perhaps BG was between them and the road under the bridge and their only out was to run across the creek.

There is a house quite near the SE end of the bridge and if the children had an opportunity to flee, they could have run down the road to the house ... no crossing the creek. They could have run down the road in the opposite direction as well. The fact is that they were not found along the road in either direction, but across the creek and directly South of the cemetery where the terrain protects the suspect from being seen.

 

[cloudajo]

As far as we know from what has been released by a collaborated effort from the local and state police, with guidance from the FBI, the picture of the guy on the bridge is the only suspect. That would lead me to think the voice capture released by this collaborative effort is likely that of the only suspect identified. While no one has come forward to identify him, I would say it it likely the image and voice are the one, lone suspect. I am stymied with the reward so high, no one has come forward to name him successfully.

Why could that be? Is he so off the radar that no one knows him? Is he so technically ignorant to not know what a cell phone with these capabilities could do?

Trying to put it all together and understand why he would not see the importance of a teen girl's phone and what evidence it could provide versus how he has not been identified. All I can think tonight is he must be completely off the grid.

I think it's possible that a tip was submitted based on the video/audio and that LE have interviewed the suspect. Let's say they brought him in for an interview, he gave an alibi, they can't confirm 100% either way, someone who knows him either knowingly or unknowingly backed up his alibi. But they have a gut feeling so keep him on the list and explore other angles, continue to review and follow up tips, interview people, etc. etc. They keep working it every day. Also, I keep in mind the possible fear factor about living in the area, possibly knowing something and submitting a tip.

Ref:

Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Ives told CBS4 the law of averages favors that of the thousands of tips that have poured in and the hundreds of doors police and FBI agents have knocked on in connection with the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German.

Investigators say they’ve possibly met the killer or killers, or may have the clue that will wrap up the case. They just don’t know it yet.

“I think there’s an excellent chance that in these tips, somebody has named the right person,” said Ives of the more than 13,000 submissions that have come in to investigators. “When you ask me, ‘Is it possible some police officer has talked to him?’ I think it’s extremely likely that’s happened.

http://cbs4indy.com/2017/03/14/some...on-says-prosecutor-in-hunt-for-delphi-killer/

 

[DrOrchid]

Agree. If there was any sort of trail of info on the cell phone, they'd have their guy by now. I wonder if the girls met this guy (guys) somewhere locally and planned to meet him or them that day.

 

[tomvansac]

Yes, all great points. The only caveat is that we don't know what LE knows and it might be that they have great reasons for holding on to the info they have.

I have mentioned this on the threads before. One of the most critical pieces of information that LE is holding back is whether or not they know there was only one person involved. There are articles that you can Google that say that LE has acknowledged there could be more than one person involved that go back to Feb 21st and Feb 22nd.

The reason why that is critical is because if it turns out that there are at least two individuals involved and one of them is BG and the other is DTH-Guy then they are cutting off potential tips and leads from the public because you may have a person that is thinking hey DTH-Guy sounds like John Doe, but dang it, doesn't look like BG at all and conversely there is might be someone that thinks BG looks like Rob Roe but his voice is definitely not DTH-Guy.

The consequence is that people who could hand up the right names to LE never make that call. If it turns out that there is more than one person involved in this LE has done a disservice to the public and to their own case by not making it known. And further if it there are more than one involved and LE releases it later it won't generate many leads because the case will have been long out of the media attention and that new information wouldn't suddenly spark media attention like the case had at the beginning.

Also, another point I will make is that the further you get away from Delphi in distance the less likely someone will think it is their neighbor that just so happens to look like BG. They probably never even heard of Delphi before this and would assume that neighbor never heard of it either let alone had gone there and murdered two girls.

Overall there are probably a number of things that LE could release that won't jeopardize their case in any way that might generate the lead that gets this case solved. Holding on to almost everything like they are in possession of the Ark of the Covenant hasn't gotten them anywhere. I believe they are no closer to the identify of the killer(s) than they were at 12:10pm on February 14th, 2017. So far their secrets have no value whatsoever sitting in file folders and boxes in secure rooms.

They need to be a bit more forthcoming.

 

[Confusion]

Thanks!

I wonder if this might make a reasonable topic for discussion. What question/s would you want as part of a brief (2-5?) set of questions to ask LE? Think of questions that might help here without compromising their case.

What can we at WS do that might help catch him/them?
Is it likely they got back on the north side by crossing the creek?

 

[Falling Down]

Agree. If there was any sort of trail of info on the cell phone, they'd have their guy by now. I wonder if the girls met this guy (guys) somewhere locally and planned to meet him or them that day.

There may be a SM or other electronic connection, however we have to keep in mind it is possible for people to mask themselves, online.