Userid,
Apply occam or KISS and put me on ignore, that way there will be no misunderstanding.
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Questions you'd like answers to...
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Userid,
Apply occam or KISS and put me on ignore, that way there will be no misunderstanding.
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Nope, I never put people on ignore. I think that's counterproductive. Just because I don't like and/or agree with someone, doesn't mean I can't learn something from them all the same.
Take you own advice, and KISS as opposed to being all over the place.
We might just have to wait and see for these answers.
Hopefully soon though! and I really hope they test the ligature. They are for sure retesting the "mixed" samples where it is supposedly an unknown male's DNA mixed with jb's.
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AlGx
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I thought they tested the ligatures and found no DNA? :thinking: Just curious.
No, there was a partial profile on the ligature. The kind that could have come from ANYTHING.
Ok, here's a few questions:
1. Has the current DA subpoenaed the Ramsey's phone records for that night for every phone they had, including all of their cell phones?
2. If not, why isn't the media and public in general demanding that they do so. If that hasn't been done, no DA or law enforcement can even CLAIM that any real attempt is being made to solve the case.
3. Is it too late for those records to be subpoenaed?
4. Has the current DA subpoenaed the Ramsey's medical records and in particular the children's medical records?
5. If not, why isn't the media and public in general demanding they do so. If that hasn't been done, no DA or law enforcement can even remotely CLAIM that any real attempt is being made to solve the case.
6. Is it too late for those records to be subpoenaed?
7. Can Alex Hunter be prosecuted for what he did to the Ramsey case?
1. Has the current DA subpoenaed the Ramsey's phone records for that night for every phone they had, including all of their cell phones?
2. If not, why isn't the media and public in general demanding that they do so. If that hasn't been done, no DA or law enforcement can even CLAIM that any real attempt is being made to solve the case.
3. Is it too late for those records to be subpoenaed?
4. Has the current DA subpoenaed the Ramsey's medical records and in particular the children's medical records?
5. If not, why isn't the media and public in general demanding they do so. If that hasn't been done, no DA or law enforcement can even remotely CLAIM that any real attempt is being made to solve the case.
6. Is it too late for those records to be subpoenaed?
7. Can Alex Hunter be prosecuted for what he did to the Ramsey case?
Disgusted,
No is the answer to the relevant questions, particularly if the case is BDI, otherwise AH will just claim administrative error, all good bureucrats blaim the paperwork.
IMO, only JR could ever be arraigned in court, and that currently looks very unlikely.
What is likely to happen is some LEA insiders, and ex family friends, e.g. Fleet White might do interviews to clear the air.
Can everyone hear the silence from the Paughs, not a peep? Why because they know where the evidence was buried.
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otg
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Thanks for trying to answer my question, Userid. Youre the only poster who took on the challenge. I hope people dont allow their theory about who is responsible to influence what they think happened. Thats kind of along the lines of the proverbial cart and horse, isnt it? Unfortunately, thats what I think too many investigators and experts might be doing at times.
Other than those who just blindly accept it and try to explain how it might have happened, the thing about the two strangulations (I think) is that they are trying to explain what is obvious in some of the leaked autopsy photos and what Dr. Meyer described in the AR. Just for reference, here is exactly what the AR says about the neck injuries:
A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furrow varies from one-eighth of an inch to five/sixteenths of an inch and is horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches. The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head.
The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral. The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are nonpatterned, purple to rust colored, and present in the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck. The skin just above the ligature furrow along the right side of the neck contains petechial hemorrhage composed of multiple confluent very small petechial hemorrhages as well as several larger petechial hemorrhages measuring up to one-sixteenth and one-eighth of an inch in maximum dimension. Similar smaller petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin below the ligature furrow on the left lateral aspect of the neck.
Notice he describes an area of abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow. Petechial hemorrhages can be caused from several different abnormal processes. Without going into each way they can form, what caused the ones on JonBenets neck is restricted blood flow (from the ligature) which caused the capillaries to over-pressure and then rupture, creating tiny little bloodspots just under the surface of the skin. In ligature strangulation, these are very common. But heres the thing: they usually form above the ligature from restricted venous return (and continued arterial input) or from applied physical disruption.
In addition to the MEs remarks, the leaked autopsy photos show a very prominent white line below the laryngeal prominence (the Adams apple). Its a shame Meyer didnt mention it in the AR, but it is very obvious in the photos. Its width is about the same as the width of the furrow, so I suspect it is from the cord or at least from something the same diameter as the cord. I think what the experts are attempting to do is account for this area of petechiae and the white line on her neck below the ligature furrow and below the congested area on her neck.
Dr. Wecht tried to account for it as repeated tightening and loosening of the cord before she was strangled, leading him to his theory that it was some sort of vicarious autoerotic asphyxiation. But the problem with that is the fact that a white line wouldnt remain if it was done antemortem. Blood circulation would cause it to return to its normal color if it was done while she was still alive.
The scene shown in the movie version of PMPT and Det. Arndts statement about the cord being wrapped twice doesnt hold up because the autopsy photo showing the cord after it was cut free from her neck by the ME disputes the diameter of the loop were it wrapped twice.
While its possible her shirt collar might have been twisted before she died, there is no evidence of it (that I know of) other than speculation about the balled-up shirt found in the bathroom, and it wouldnt account for the injuries that we know happened because of the AR and the photos. The twisted shirt collar wouldnt cause the thin, white line. It might fit nicely into some theories about what might have happened, but (TMK) there is no evidence supporting it.
Ive quoted this before, but I think the following quote perfectly describes JonBenets neck injuries so its worth repeating. It comes from a book written entirely about neck injuries. The book is Pathology of Neck Injury, by Peter Vanezis:
It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck.
If anyone cares to read more about petechial hemorrhaging, heres a long post with a lot of info and references from a few years ago:
BoldBear
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I've always though of the paintbrush handle as a 2nd attempt. If I have gloves on, handling a cord like that is really hard and can slip. A knot could take care of that, but if you're thinking quickly and in a bit of a panic, you grasp at a quick idea. A handle is stable.
BoldBear,
If you have gloves on you can dispense with the cord and manually asphyxiate JonBenet.
Similar outcome, i.e. some neck injuries and a deceased JonBenet, although no circumferential furrow, I doubt the killer thought about that as a crime-scene detail?
For me its the use of the paintbrush and the ligature that is iffy, since you have to go and fetch these items. Its not as if its a bushwhacking case similar to say Ted Bundy, where he used blunt force on his victims as a prelude to sexual assault.
Presumably these items were sourced down in the basement, all suggesting a spur of the moment decision to stage a crime-scene, one that might hide details relating to the primary crime-scene?
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otg,
Everything you suggest is consistent with a ligature asphyxiation, including an explanation why there might be additional abrasions and partial ligature marks.
Knowing all this does not rule out antemortem constriction of the neck, whether manually or via clothing, etc.
JonBenet's vagus nerve might have been constricted causing her to fall unconcious, leaving little sign of injury to her neck.
If the person fabricating the ligature device knew this then their rationale for the ligature device is to mask whatever internal injuries there might be to JonBenet's neck, they were not to know otherwise?
Also if they knew JonBenet had blunt force trauma to her skull, then patently they knew this would be discovered at autopsy?
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DrollForeignFaction
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In the CBS special from last year (about 20 minutes into part 2) Henry Lee suggested that the knot be untied and to have the currently inaccessible part of the cord tested. He said it would be a great place for the DNA of the person who tied the knot to be found. In their demonstration they had Jim Clemente tie the knot around the paintbrush and found his DNA inside - and, it bears mentioning, a bunch of random unrelated DNA markers as well.
Lee didn't say this specifically, but my understanding of the logic behind him suggesting it is that if Ramsey touch DNA were to be found inside the knot where only the killer could have touched it, that would be pretty damning. After all, they've always maintained that the cord was unknown to them and came from outside the house so they can't suddenly claim that one of them must have innocently touched the cord at some time prior to the murder. It's probably a long shot, since I assume if she was strangled by an adult they would have been smart enough to wear gloves. But I'd be interested to know if the BPD took Lee's advice for this round of testing.
yes!
the 3 most incriminating factors for me that I cannot fathom how the BPD couldn't and didn't nail them over are....
1/. the missing phone records ....sure...really??? come on now.
2/. the ramseys medical records with held. wtf??
3/. patsy admitting putting JBR in those longjons and the bizaar explanation of the bloomies. sort of kinda yeah maybe I don't remember crap.
alex hunter should be jailed for his disgusting stone walling to his own police department.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
The cord and tightening stick was already around her neck, when she received the head blow. Since, the cord was already tight around her neck, she died from asphyxiation first. This is the main source of confusion.
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BoldBear
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I disagree. The head blow came earlier before the cord was wrapped around her. She was dying from the TBI. If she would have gone to a hospital, she may not have survived without a miracle. The injury to her brain caused swelling and bleeding.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
Yes, it did, but very little. I believe, this is because she was already being strangled before the head blow. It restricted the blood flow, hence the very little bleeding.
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BoldBear
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Okay, I'm not interested in going toe to toe. I'm honestly not focused on that issue at this time; otherwise, I'd dig into the sources. Sorry, Cottonstar, insomnia has got my thinking a little cloudy right now.
My question:
I have confusion with Patsy and her cell phone. This is one of those things you read and doesn't seem to be a problem until you actually want to pin-down the details. I'm trying to understand if Patsy purchased her tiny Panasonic cell phone for John and then kept it for herself. The transcripts are confusing and Patsy can't seem to stay focused. What is your opinion? Did she buy the cell phone for John and decided to keep it or did she buy it for herself?
0066
1 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up
2 again. We talked about that phone, possible
3 phone lines. Did you folks at that time have
4 any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell
6 phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at
7 Christmas, little teeny one.
8 TOM HANEY: Was it activated?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's
10 activated when you buy it.
11 TOM HANEY: It's not much of a
12 present if it doesn't work?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was
14 activated.
15 TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you
16 recall the phone number?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: How about John's cell
19 phone, do you recall that number?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: Did he have just the
22 one, was that a personal one?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and
24 he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years
25 ago, and he -- I think he lost and then --
0067
1 anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic
2 one at, what's that store -- that music video
3 store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of
4 those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had
5 it sitting on the window ledge charging and he
6 walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will
7 just take this one.
8 And I think meanwhile, Denise, his
9 secretary had ordered him a new phone.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access
11 Graphics phone?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I
13 mean there were a couple of phones and they were
14 both relatively new and I don't know what the
15 number was.
16 TOM HANEY: And where were they
17 normally kept?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
19 TOM HANEY: His--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually
21 charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or
22 something.
23 TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger
24 set up somewhere though or--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't
0068
1 remember.
Repeating my question: Did she buy the cell phone for John and decided to keep it or did she buy it for herself?
My question:
I have confusion with Patsy and her cell phone. This is one of those things you read and doesn't seem to be a problem until you actually want to pin-down the details. I'm trying to understand if Patsy purchased her tiny Panasonic cell phone for John and then kept it for herself. The transcripts are confusing and Patsy can't seem to stay focused. What is your opinion? Did she buy the cell phone for John and decided to keep it or did she buy it for herself?
0066
1 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up
2 again. We talked about that phone, possible
3 phone lines. Did you folks at that time have
4 any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell
6 phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at
7 Christmas, little teeny one.
8 TOM HANEY: Was it activated?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's
10 activated when you buy it.
11 TOM HANEY: It's not much of a
12 present if it doesn't work?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was
14 activated.
15 TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you
16 recall the phone number?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: How about John's cell
19 phone, do you recall that number?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: Did he have just the
22 one, was that a personal one?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and
24 he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years
25 ago, and he -- I think he lost and then --
0067
1 anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic
2 one at, what's that store -- that music video
3 store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of
4 those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had
5 it sitting on the window ledge charging and he
6 walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will
7 just take this one.
8 And I think meanwhile, Denise, his
9 secretary had ordered him a new phone.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access
11 Graphics phone?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I
13 mean there were a couple of phones and they were
14 both relatively new and I don't know what the
15 number was.
16 TOM HANEY: And where were they
17 normally kept?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
19 TOM HANEY: His--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually
21 charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or
22 something.
23 TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger
24 set up somewhere though or--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't
0068
1 remember.
Repeating my question: Did she buy the cell phone for John and decided to keep it or did she buy it for herself?
BoldBear,
Looks like she bought it for herself:
She is being ambiguous as usual. There are four cellphones mentioned, two at access graphics, Patsy's and one conveniently lost by JR.
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