Questions you'd like answers to...

[Cottonstar]

There's a timeline here that I'm not following. There were suspicions about the ransom note immediately by members of the BPD. I don't remember the person who said that, but it's easy enough to look it up. Yes, the FBI did say that, but I don't know where that was in the timeline.

When we talk about Boulder we're talking about the People's Republic of Boulder (that's what it's often called here in Colorado). It's a college town, a tech town, a hippie yuppie town. It was often known in tech sectors as a magnet storage hot spot in the US--kind of its own type of Silicon Valley. It had one of the original nodes on the ARPANET, the precursor to the internet. It was the hom of Robert A. Heinlein, author of "Stranger in a Strange Land." And it was the place where Mork from Ork landed in an egg from outer space. CU was the home of 420 day. The college has been consistently voted one of the top 10 party campuses in the US. They even had party riots in the streets of Boulder. And John and Patsy were so close to campus, they could hear the marching band practicing from the bedroom. When you go to Boulder, you really are a stranger in a strange land. And the way Boulder is governed is just as strange with odd building rules keeping an undeveloped zone around the city and height restrictions.

Jonbenet was discovered kidnapped the day after Christmas. Boulder LE only had a skeleton crew working. Many of their most experienced officers were out on Christmas vacation. I would assume the same would be true for the FBI. In addition to that, Boulder's police department was a little lax on policies at the time. They weren't running things by the book and heaven forbid if you ever offended anyone you were arresting--you'd pay a price. The DA was just as lax too often plea bargaining cases that should have been slam dunks. I've hear Boulder's PD referred to being as backward as Mayberry, but that's not accurate. It wasn't Mayberry, it was too liberal for that. It was if the 60's hippies were now running a college town.

You question why the FBI didn't step in immediately. It was the People's Republic of Boulder and it was the day after Christmas.

Oh and Linda Arndt picked-up the only police recorder that was used in the house that day. It was hooked-up to the telephone for the kidnappers--not like you'd ever want to record the questions you were asking the parents.

When exactly was JonBenet kidnapped?


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[flourish]

When exactly was JonBenet kidnapped?


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Well, many would argue she wasn't. But I think the story indicates between 10pm and the 911 call which was a little after 6am iirc.

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[Userid]

That's because you don't hear about it. The most common sexual abuser of children, is other children.


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Source?

 

[otg]

I know this has come up in the past about the FBI’s involvement, so hopefully I can shed a little light on it. The FBI is an investigative organization. They are usually not first-responders. When a crime is committed, it is up to local authorities to respond quickly and do an initial investigation to determine what the response should be. In this case they did exactly that.

It was the Christmas holiday, and BPD and FBI were both operating with less than normal personnel. The FBI field office was in Denver and probably closed. Any needed SAs would be on-call.

Here is a little bit of a timeline offered in Listen Carefully (TCDG):

Detectives Linda Arndt and Fred Patterson arrived at 8:10 after meeting in a nearby shopping center parking lot with Sergent Reichenbach, who had left the Ramsey house and briefed them on the situation. Steve Eller, the Detective Division Commander, was called in from his two-week Christmas vacation.

In Eller’s absence, Detective Sergeant Bob Whitson had been acting as the on-duty supervisor at the Boulder Police Department headquarters. Whitson notified the FBI, the District Attorney’s office, and the Boulder County Sheriff’s Department. He arrived at the Ramseys’ house around 9:30 am, explained to John Ramsey what the Boulder Police were doing, and told him the FBI had been notified.

The FBI’s Denver Field Office sent Special Agent Ron Walker and four other agents to meet with the Boulder Police Department and take over the investigation, since kidnapping falls under the jurisdiction of the Bureau. Detective Sergeant Larry Mason was paged at 9:45 am to meet with them at the Boulder Police Department the Boulder Police Department Headquarters.
​

...and later:

By the time acting Boulder Police Department Commander Sergeant Larry Mason arrived at police headquarters on the morning of December 26, the FBI had already begun analyzing some of the evidence. The ransom note had been brought in, copied, and logged.

FBI Agent Walker had reviewed what was known about the alleged kidnapping at that time, and based on his training and experience had already become suspicious of the circumstances. He pointed out the extraordinary length of the ransom note, the unusually small and odd amount of ransom ($118,000.00) demanded from a multimillionaire, and the fact that no point-of-entry had been found where a perpetrator could have broken into the house.

Walker also noted another odd element of the ransom note. It was filled with familiar lines from movies in an amateurish attempt to sound like a real criminal involved with a kidnapping. Walker told Mason and others present that based on his experience, they should consider the parents of the missing child as suspects.
​

...and after JonBenet’s body had been found:

At police headquarters, Sergeant Larry Mason was still consulting with FBI Agent Walker when he received the news via his pager. He told Walker that they were no longer investigating a kidnapping, but rather a homicide. They both understood that this meant the FBI’s jurisdiction was over and the case was now back under local law enforcement’s control. Mason offered to let Walker go with him to the scene.

Mason and Walker arrived to find the paramedics talking to Patsy in an attempt to distract her from continuing to hold tightly to her dead daughter’s body. Even faster than the house had filled up with people earlier in the morning, the scene was already teeming with emergency responders, detectives, supervisors, and Crime Scene Investigators. Mason and Walker went to the basement where they were told the body had been “discovered.” After briefly examining the area, they returned to the first floor.
​

...and later:

At the Boulder Police Department Headquarters, the FBI’s official involvement was over. As the agents prepared to leave, the spoke with Boulder officials one more time. The agents told local investigators they needed to look closely at the family. Only one out of twelve children murdered in their own home is killed by a stranger. Additionally, the FBI felt there were behavioral clues, no indication of a break-in, and the abnormal nature of the ransom note, which appeared to be part of a staged crime scene.

Because a homicide is investigated differently than a kidnapping, investigators began regrouping.
​

Conclusion: The FBI was “working” the case with five SAs as soon as they were notified. But with the local authorities handling the situation at the Ramsey house, they were able to examine some of the evidence and consult with BPD before going to the crime scene itself.

 

[Gnat]

Were JR and PR questioned about their bed looking like it wasn't slept in the night JB was killed?

 

[Gnat]

That's because you don't hear about it. The most common sexual abuser of children, is other children.


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I just read an article about child sex offenders and it stated that they are commonly between 13-18 yr of age. Prepubescent offenders are often sex abuse victims themselves. Let me see if I can find the link.
http://bostonreview.net/blog/youth-sex-offender-registry-hrw

 

[BoldBear]

Again, it would have proven that a stranger would have somehow known where the panties were located, which would have been impossible -- just as it was impossible for a stranger to know exactly where the pen and pads of paper should be stored in the house. [snip]

I actually wasn't making an intruder argument. I'm far beyond the point of IDI. Neither the notepad nor the pen were placed in a drawer somewhere. They were out in the open . That leaves the underwear. The flashlight that was kept in a drawer in the back hallway a few feet from the spiral staircase.

 

[BoldBear]

When exactly was JonBenet kidnapped?

Ah, sarcasm. From LE's standpoint, there were two phases of this case: the kidnapping phase and the murder phase. Would you like me to provide you with quotes or are you just splitting hairs?

 

[Jolamom]

To me, there would have been absolutely no point to hide the underwear in the wine cellar. There is no evidence that the package of underwear was ever in the wine cellar. Now, if other gifts for other individuals (other than BR) were found among the partially opened gifts, then I might say you have a point, and that there is a good chance the underwear could have been down there, but that isn't the case. The only gifts that were found in the wine cellar, were BR's. So because of this fact, I believe the underwear was never in the wine cellar. There's no way of knowing for certain either way, but nonetheless, that's how I interpret what evidence was actually left.

I see your point about just taking one pair and leaving the rest, but think of it this way: they are trying to stage that an intruder came in and did this. If they left the rest of the package in her drawer -- or anywhere in the house, for that matter -- how in the world would they have explained that? Meaning, how did the killer know where JBR's panties were? How would he have ever known they were in that particular drawer, which was in her bathroom, no less? They wouldn't have been able to answer those questions -- they knew this, which is why they simply got rid of them all together -- because the only person who would know those panties were in that drawer, would have been someone who lives there.

I don't claim to know where the panty package was, but you are making an interesting point. Patsy steadfastly claimed that the size 12-14 panties that JonBenèt was found in were the exact same ones she wore to the White's that evening. If that was the story and the one she was going to testify to, would it not have made sense to have that same package of panties show up in JonBenèt's draw where she kept her panties? Instead it had vanished. Not to be found anywhere in the house until it magically appeared with the Ramseys, I believe years later. There was no need for the "strange" to take them or to hide them. They were not part of the staging according to Patsy. This was a huge red flag for me.

 

[Cottonstar]

I don't claim to know where the panty package was, but you are making an interesting point. Patsy steadfastly claimed that the size 12-14 panties that JonBenèt was found in were the exact same ones she wore to the White's that evening. If that was the story and the one she was going to testify to, would it not have made sense to have that same package of panties show up in JonBenèt's draw where she kept her panties? Instead it had vanished. Not to be found anywhere in the house until it magically appeared with the Ramseys, I believe years later. There was no need for the "strange" to take them or to hide them. They were not part of the staging according to Patsy. This was a huge red flag for me.

Great point Jola. I'm saying there is no way she wore the bloomies to the White's that night.


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[Userid]

I don't claim to know where the panty package was, but you are making an interesting point. Patsy steadfastly claimed that the size 12-14 panties that JonBenèt was found in were the exact same ones she wore to the White's that evening. If that was the story and the one she was going to testify to, would it not have made sense to have that same package of panties show up in JonBenèt's draw where she kept her panties? Instead it had vanished. Not to be found anywhere in the house until it magically appeared with the Ramseys, I believe years later. There was no need for the "strange" to take them or to hide them. They were not part of the staging according to Patsy. This was a huge red flag for me.

Where does PR ever confirm that JBR wore the bloomies to the Whites? Do you have that quote?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't claim to know where the panty package was, but you are making an interesting point. Patsy steadfastly claimed that the size 12-14 panties that JonBenèt was found in were the exact same ones she wore to the White's that evening. If that was the story and the one she was going to testify to, would it not have made sense to have that same package of panties show up in JonBenèt's draw where she kept her panties? Instead it had vanished. Not to be found anywhere in the house until it magically appeared with the Ramseys, I believe years later. There was no need for the "strange" to take them or to hide them. They were not part of the staging according to Patsy. This was a huge red flag for me.

Jolamom,
In interview when telling how she dressed JonBenet in Burke's long johns. she was asked what underwear JonBenet had on. Patsy said she never noticed, only if she had none would it have been apparent.

Again in interview Patsy said she placed the size-12's into Jonbenet's drawer, but never saw JonBenet actually wearing them.


When JonBenet was bathing and dressing for the White's again Patsy says she never noticed what underwear JonBenet was wearing, convenient or what?

This is one of the reasons why the case is not PDI.

.

 

[Annapurna]

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[Userid]

Jolamom,
In interview when telling how she dressed JonBenet in Burke's long johns. she was asked what underwear JonBenet had on. Patsy said she never noticed, only if she had none would it have been apparent.

Again in interview Patsy said she placed the size-12's into Jonbenet's drawer, but never saw JonBenet actually wearing them.


When JonBenet was bathing and dressing for the White's again Patsy says she never noticed what underwear JonBenet was wearing, convenient or what?

This is one of the reasons why the case is not PDI.

.

I agree with the bolded and thank you -- it's correct: she never confirmed that JBR was wearing the underwear the night before.

So that should answer your initial question, Jolamom. That is why she didn't place (or leave) the package in her drawer, or even admit that she knew JBR was wearing them that day (if she in fact was) -- because she was desperately trying to distance herself from the Bloomies -- which is again why she/they would "dispose" of the package entirely.

 

[Jolamom]

Jolamom,
In interview when telling how she dressed JonBenet in Burke's long johns. she was asked what underwear JonBenet had on. Patsy said she never noticed, only if she had none would it have been apparent.

Again in interview Patsy said she placed the size-12's into Jonbenet's drawer, but never saw JonBenet actually wearing them.


When JonBenet was bathing and dressing for the White's again Patsy says she never noticed what underwear JonBenet was wearing, convenient or what?

This is one of the reasons why the case is not PDI.

.

You are correct. She never actually states she knows for certain she had the size 12-14 Bloomis on, she just offers up an explaination as to why they were in JonBenèt's drawer and why they would have been on her and why they were only "slightly" too big for her.

Interview with Patsy from June 23, 1998


18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit
23 her. Were you aware of that?
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a matter of fact --
0082
1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a
2 matter --
3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old
4 child?
5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
6 a matter of fact.
7 MR. WOOD: Don't fit her
8 according to whose standard?
9 MR. LEVIN: By --
10 MR. WOOD: I mean, I have got an
11 11-year-old boy, and he wears underwear that
12 potentially hangs down to his knees, Bruce.
13 I mean, I don't know how you can come up
14 with that as a fact. That sounds to me
15 like more of an opinion. Who states that as
16 fact?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.
0083
1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
5 that those would not fit her?
6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
8 as well as a smaller pair.
9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?
13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that
14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without
15 her having to document a mathematical fact,
16 Bruce?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the
18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you
19 agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny

 

[UKGuy]

You are correct. She never actually states she knows for certain she had the size 12-14 Bloomis on, she just offers up an explaination as to why they were in JonBenèt's drawer and why they would have been on her and why they were only "slightly" too big for her.

Interview with Patsy from June 23, 1998


18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit
23 her. Were you aware of that?
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a matter of fact --
0082
1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a
2 matter --
3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old
4 child?
5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
6 a matter of fact.
7 MR. WOOD: Don't fit her
8 according to whose standard?
9 MR. LEVIN: By --
10 MR. WOOD: I mean, I have got an
11 11-year-old boy, and he wears underwear that
12 potentially hangs down to his knees, Bruce.
13 I mean, I don't know how you can come up
14 with that as a fact. That sounds to me
15 like more of an opinion. Who states that as
16 fact?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.
0083
1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
5 that those would not fit her?
6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
8 as well as a smaller pair.
9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?
13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that
14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without
15 her having to document a mathematical fact,
16 Bruce?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the
18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you
19 agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny

Jolamom,
This is why the case is not PDI. Above you have Patsy attempting to explain why JonBenet was wearing size-12's, even to the point of not saying why the intruder did not dress JonBenet in the size-12's.

If the case were PDI Patsy would offer a rationale for all the stuff we know zilch about.

.

 

[Jolamom]

Jolamom,
This is why the case is not PDI. Above you have Patsy attempting to explain why JonBenet was wearing size-12's, even to the point of not saying why the intruder did not dress JonBenet in the size-12's.

If the case were PDI Patsy would offer a rationale for all the stuff we know zilch about.

.

I agree. My point was the Bloomies package should have been left in JonBenèt's drawer to make the story plausible. The fact that is wasn't puts a huge hole in Patsy's tale. For me, it was another part of the staging that became apparent when the parents were interviewed. Personally, I am not a fan of the PDI theory.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree. My point was the Bloomies package should have been left in JonBenèt's drawer to make the story plausible. The fact that is wasn't puts a huge hole in Patsy's tale. For me, it was another part of the staging that became apparent when the parents were interviewed. Personally, I am not a fan of the PDI theory.

Jolamom,
Yipee, niceee. you have a fan. PDI looks to me like a fake news story, gotta credit The Donald with this, Clever Guy BTW!

.

 

[Ambitioned]

Put the package in her drawer and JB opened it? I smell BS. Those packages of Bloomies are sealed by a plastic ring you have to cut with a knife or scissors.

IMO, PR is trying to cover for BR here and it made LE suspicious.

 

[Ambitioned]

Jolamom,
Yipee, niceee. you have a fan. PDI looks to me like a fake news story, gotta credit The Donald with this, Clever Guy BTW!

.

Aha! PR = the original fake news and alternative facts!