OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Betty P]

Has anyone ever taken a look at the list of registered sex offenders in the Locust Grove area to see if there are any names that match people questioned at the time of the killings?

 

[huxley72]

Most here are talking about alternatives. Some of us think, as do many others, that it was GLH and an accomplice. Wish we could talk more about those possibilities.

Maybe it would help if we did a review of all the evidence that was used at the GLH trial and see if there's another explanation for it? For example, the tape that was used to bind DM was the same roll stolen from Shroff's house. It was microscopically matched to the roll of tape that was found at the cave/cellar area, also known as cave #1. How could that evidence fit someone else?

Well if we found Hart at the cave then yes it would appear likely he was involved. But we have no way of knowing Hart went to these caves or was there. We have a convict cousin who was accused of rape who says he was in the area other than that we have no way of knowing. Do we have any other concrete sightings of Hart in the area? Not just during this time but any other time after his escape from jail? Then we come back to the boot print at the cave and at Shroff's house. We never have confirmation that Hart had this boot and the size was off. If we have a receipt were Hart bought this boot or someone who says they loaned him this boot then we have some good info. I have read somewhere that Hart told an inmate that he didn't think he did it but couldn't be sure because he had been drinking and smoking reefer and his memory was bad. But I don't think someone could pull this off being so quiet while assaulting and killing 3 people while 27 people were very close by being drunk and stoned. Also walking around the camp stealing everyone's belongings without one sighting. I think people made Hart out to be some kind of Indian who lived off the land and in the woods using magic. I tend to think he didn't live in the woods at all, I am sure other suspects in the area should be looked at further.

 

[huxley72]

Has anyone ever taken a look at the list of registered sex offenders in the Locust Grove area to see if there are any names that match people questioned at the time of the killings?

How would we get started trying to find out this information? I would like to help look around the area and see if anyone fit the mold back then. I tend to think it was someone between 20 and 27 at the time so they would be 60 to 67 now.

 

[huxley72]

Has anyone ever taken a look at the list of registered sex offenders in the Locust Grove area to see if there are any names that match people questioned at the time of the killings?

Started looking at registered offenders in Mayes County OK. Specifically Locust Grove, have found 4 so far people that range in age of 61-70. Now I have no idea how to determine if they lived there back then. Also how would you find out people from 1977 to say 1987 if they were convicted of sex crimes in that area?

 

[adeedra]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...et-Peggy-Beck-16-Jefferson-County-18-Aug-1963

Neither CS staff or all organization were living under some kind of illusion that girls are safe. They weren't and they knew that well.
Healthy 16yo is found dead and they are instantly assuming that healthy young girl just died and there is nothing suspicious about that? They had 14 years to improve their safety rules and they did nothing - as some optimist could say.
If they were acting so terrible towards DM, MG & LF's families, then I wonder - how many killed, molested and raped girl's cases they just hushed over the years to keep their safety statistics so great.

It scares me more and more.
(and now I'll go and do some proper research as I should before)

 

[Betty P]

Well if we found Hart at the cave then yes it would appear likely he was involved. But we have no way of knowing Hart went to these caves or was there. We have a convict cousin who was accused of rape who says he was in the area other than that we have no way of knowing. Do we have any other concrete sightings of Hart in the area? Not just during this time but any other time after his escape from jail? Then we come back to the boot print at the cave and at Shroff's house. We never have confirmation that Hart had this boot and the size was off. If we have a receipt were Hart bought this boot or someone who says they loaned him this boot then we have some good info. I have read somewhere that Hart told an inmate that he didn't think he did it but couldn't be sure because he had been drinking and smoking reefer and his memory was bad. But I don't think someone could pull this off being so quiet while assaulting and killing 3 people while 27 people were very close by being drunk and stoned. Also walking around the camp stealing everyone's belongings without one sighting. I think people made Hart out to be some kind of Indian who lived off the land and in the woods using magic. I tend to think he didn't live in the woods at all, I am sure other suspects in the area should be looked at further.

As I recall, Hart was wearing these military type boots when he was captured. Will have to research some more. There were other witnesses who testified they had seen him wearing them. There were also at least 2 witnesses who had escaped jail with Hart who said they had spent time hiding out with him at the cave/cellar. One was a guy named Darrel Creekmore (?) can't recall the name of the other, but will look him up. He gave testimony, too.

 

[huxley72]

As I recall, Hart was wearing these military type boots when he was captured. Will have to research some more. There were other witnesses who testified they had seen him wearing them. There were also at least 2 witnesses who had escaped jail with Hart who said they had spent time hiding out with him at the cave/cellar. One was a guy named Darrel Creekmore (?) can't recall the name of the other, but will look him up. He gave testimony, too.

I just looked at volume 13 of the pre trial testimony and Darren Creekmore testified that he had visited a cave around early July 77 and noticed a place where a fire had been and boot prints with smooth soles. He testified he hadn't seen Gene Hart since 1973. Also all this talk about caves is crazy, the description of the cave was 4 ft high and 3 foot deep. If that is considered a cave then the hills of Oklahoma should be considered mega volcanoes. I am gonna try and find the other testimony about he other prison inmate.

 

[adeedra]

As I recall, Hart was wearing these military type boots when he was captured. Will have to research some more. There were other witnesses who testified they had seen him wearing them. There were also at least 2 witnesses who had escaped jail with Hart who said they had spent time hiding out with him at the cave/cellar. One was a guy named Darrel Creekmore (?) can't recall the name of the other, but will look him up. He gave testimony, too.

It's quite blurry photo, but it doesn't seem like he was wearing military boots, it looks like socks and some kind of dark under-ankle-lenght shoes.

 

[huxley72]

I'm reading Dee's testimony again and she say's when Carla came back to say " We need to count kids" I yelled at her? Strange and then Carla went to tent 1 knowing the girl she saw in the road resembled Denise from Tent 7. At least I would think that she would somewhat recognize her. Also When Dee goes to number 7 she tells the other counselors that there is no girls in the tent and they all stand there looking in. Thinking maybe they were in another tent to count the other ones and maybe the blood was from an accident. Now Carla should say there is a girl in the road back there that appears to be dead and appears to be one of the girls missing from this tent, I don't understand this sequence at all, of course shock can do crazy things. Maybe in the back of her mind she was thinking it was another unit's girl I don't know. Not trying to cast blame but it was a bizzare discovery and sequence of events afterwards. The alarm clock, the discovery, the counting, Susan screaming, Dee not looking at the girl or girls while passing, no kids in the unit waking up, no kids in the unit asking where the other girls were while eating and going on a hike. Everyone keeping it together that saw or knew what happened, just wow.

 

[Betty P]

I'm reading Dee's testimony again and she say's when Carla came back to say " We need to count kids" I yelled at her? Strange and then Carla went to tent 1 knowing the girl she saw in the road resembled Denise from Tent 7. At least I would think that she would somewhat recognize her. Also When Dee goes to number 7 she tells the other counselors that there is no girls in the tent and they all stand there looking in. Thinking maybe they were in another tent to count the other ones and maybe the blood was from an accident. Now Carla should say there is a girl in the road back there that appears to be dead and appears to be one of the girls missing from this tent, I don't understand this sequence at all, of course shock can do crazy things. Maybe in the back of her mind she was thinking it was another unit's girl I don't know. Not trying to cast blame but it was a bizzare discovery and sequence of events afterwards. The alarm clock, the discovery, the counting, Susan screaming, Dee not looking at the girl or girls while passing, no kids in the unit waking up, no kids in the unit asking where the other girls were while eating and going on a hike. Everyone keeping it together that saw or knew what happened, just wow.

Ok, trying to unpack this. Ok, nevermind. It will take to long and I gotta take off.

TL : DR - Girls were panicked and in shock, as would anyone. Carla wasn't sure if DM was dead, didn't touch her but assumed so. First reaction was to check other girls (same common reaction from other counselors in other units that day as they were told the news.) My first reaction would have been the same: no time to stand around looking at gore while nurse, camp director were there and LE was arriving. First thought would be to check tents and get the kids out of the area.

Barbara Day told the counselors to round up the remaining girls and take them to Great Hall via another route through the woods, so they would not go by crime scene. Obviously too shocking and they needed to make room for all the LE cars and people arriving in an wooded area with narrow roads and paths. The part I have a hard time understanding is why some folks don't understand the necessity to quickly evacuate girls from Kiowa and get all others to the Great Hall. They didn't know if the killer was still in the vicinity.

So, for those who are still suspicious of the counselor's reactions that day, why not go back and put together a detailed timeline about the discovery of the bodies. That would be a big help. TIA

Start with the time of Carla's alarm going off at 6:00 am

6:00 am - Carla's alarm goes off in Counselor's tent
etc.

 

[Betty P]

This morning I began a series of spreadsheets to keep track of everything with this case. So far have over 300 entries

So far:

People

Evidence

Timeline

Suspects

Links

It was the only way to keep track of things while going through old news stories and the pre-trial testimony. Let me know if you have any suggestions.

Taking off now, lots to do today. Have a nice day!

 

[Betty P]

I just looked at volume 13 of the pre trial testimony and Darren Creekmore testified that he had visited a cave around early July 77 and noticed a place where a fire had been and boot prints with smooth soles. He testified he hadn't seen Gene Hart since 1973. Also all this talk about caves is crazy, the description of the cave was 4 ft high and 3 foot deep. If that is considered a cave then the hills of Oklahoma should be considered mega volcanoes. I am gonna try and find the other testimony about he other prison inmate.

No, the cave part of Cave #1 wasn't very big. From other descriptions in testimony (from locals and others) it was next to an old cellar. The cellar used to be part of the foundation of an old house, GLH's childhood home. It was big enough to stay out of the weather and to store stuff in. JMO, Hart was staying with relatives and friends in the Ballou area (southwest of Camp Scott). He went to the camp area when LE was searching for him or when relatives got tired of him. GLH was known to be a child molestor and it's possible he got kicked out of people's homes for molesting their children.

 

[adeedra]

GLH was known to be a child molestor and it's possible he got kicked out of people's homes for molesting their children.

What? Where did you find that info?

 

[huxley72]

No, the cave part of Cave #1 wasn't very big. From other descriptions in testimony (from locals and others) it was next to an old cellar. The cellar used to be part of the foundation of an old house, GLH's childhood home. It was big enough to stay out of the weather and to store stuff in. JMO, Hart was staying with relatives and friends in the Ballou area (southwest of Camp Scott). He went to the camp area when LE was searching for him or when relatives got tired of him. GLH was known to be a child molestor and it's possible he got kicked out of people's homes for molesting their children.

Please give some sources for this info. Its something I think possible and I think some things were never said. But looking at this case from the outside I need some sort of source to verify. I am sure some family members had trouble with Hart, but why did they not tell the LE? A child molester is not gonna be hidden by family members especially after a triple homicide they think he might have committed.

 

[huxley72]

The big monkey in the room about Hart also is the fact of his demise. A heart attack at age 35 or 37? I can't remember his age, but I believe that LE had something to do with it. Maybe Hart bragged about getting away with the crime I have no idea, but I don't think he died of a natural occuring heart attack. This guy could shape shift remember and live in the woods for months. Lol, but the coroner said he died naturally. It goes along with everything else in this case, I mean I supposed to believe the coroner right? I supposed to believe LE right? What was LE's take on the footprints and fingerprint? How did they get there? They should have had a stronger case before going to trial, I mean Hart was not going anywhere. He may have confessed if given enough time and more evidence. As far as the counselors are concerened I really don't think they were involved, it was just a strange sequence of events from the time the bodies were found. And I do realize they were young and scared as well. Dee's testimony seemed fine but my problem with Dee is the fact that she stated that she made the call about bringing the other girl over to tent 7. She said it was storming was the reason, but she had the list of campers in her hand when the buses arrived so she would have noticed one missing then.not 3 hours later when the storm hit. Also she made the comment that she devised the plan to move the campers to the Great Hall to avoid the area where the bodies were. Surely Barbara Day made the call or LE before anyone did anything right? Also she stated that she didn't look at the bodies or ask Carla what she saw before counting which is strange right? And she told the nurse that " its horrible the girls are dead," Even she says she thought it in her mind that she didn't know it but it just came out.

 

[adeedra]

The big monkey in the room about Hart also is the fact of his demise. A heart attack at age 35 or 37? I can't remember his age, but I believe that LE had something to do with it. Maybe Hart bragged about getting away with the crime I have no idea, but I don't think he died of a natural occuring heart attack. This guy could shape shift remember and live in the woods for months. Lol, but the coroner said he died naturally. It goes along with everything else in this case, I mean I supposed to believe the coroner right? I supposed to believe LE right? What was LE's take on the footprints and fingerprint? How did they get there? They should have had a stronger case before going to trial, I mean Hart was not going anywhere. He may have confessed if given enough time and more evidence.

As far as I read sheriff was sure that Hart is the murderer instantly, long before any evidence appeared.
I'm curious why guy who suffered from heart pain and was aware that he has some kind of problem with it would exercise hardly with weights, despite pain. Could he be suicidal? Or so dumb that he didn't realize?

That native medicine man hired by police told that god will claim his life soon if he's guilty of that crime.

 

[Betty P]

As far as I read sheriff was sure that Hart is the murderer instantly, long before any evidence appeared.
I'm curious why guy who suffered from heart pain and was aware that he has some kind of problem with it would exercise hardly with weights, despite pain. Could he be suicidal? Or so dumb that he didn't realize?

That native medicine man hired by police told that god will claim his life soon if he's guilty of that crime.

There was a lot of talk from Garvin Isaacs, GLH's defene attorney about Weaver framing his client, yet no evidence that I've found.

Can someone provide a link?

Otherwise, I'll refer everyone to the testimony of the people who were at the crime scene that day. All were asked if they heard any mention of GLH's name, all said "no".

 

[Betty P]

Please give some sources for this info. Its something I think possible and I think some things were never said. But looking at this case from the outside I need some sort of source to verify. I am sure some family members had trouble with Hart, but why did they not tell the LE? A child molester is not gonna be hidden by family members especially after a triple homicide they think he might have committed.

Go back to a couple of posts made about a month ago. You'll find someone who was related to Hart who alleges he used to molest her aunt when she was young. Hart's cousin JCP was also arrested for raping his 13 yo cousin just a couple of years after the GLH trial. There's a link for the article back from a little over a month ago.

 

[adeedra]

Go back to a couple of posts made about a month ago. You'll find someone who was related to Hart who alleges he used to molest her aunt when she was young. Hart's cousin JCP was also arrested for raping his 13 yo cousin just a couple of years after the GLH trial. There's a link for the article back from a little over a month ago.

One post from some unverified person with only one post basically isn't enough to call anyone "a well known child molestor", I didn't find anything about that anywhere else.

 

[adeedra]

There was a lot of talk from Garvin Isaacs, GLH's defene attorney about Weaver framing his client, yet no evidence that I've found.

Can someone provide a link?

Otherwise, I'll refer everyone to the testimony of the people who were at the crime scene that day. All were asked if they heard any mention of GLH's name, all said "no".

On the 6th of July OSBI director says that he's certain that Hart is guilty cause they have many evidences pointing at his guilt.OSBI director says that he's certain that Hart is guilty cause they have many evidences pointing at his guilt.

They didn't have any evidence pointing specifically at him at the time. He was a fugitive, rapist and great suspect, but that's not enough to talk about certain guilt.
It is in timeline on girlscoutsmurders.com.
Also - there is something shady with these pictures found in sleeping bags with bodies. Some sources are saying that there was photos of his previous victims. More reliable are saying that pictures were found in the cave along with other items. Some other that photos mysteriously appear later and that squirrel hunters weren't recalling seeing them previously.