NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sept 2012 #1

[youlostone]

Another way to explain it might be that she didn't have to write the address very often, everyone who mattered knew where "Hawthorne at the View on Old Chapel Hill Road" was, and knew how to find it. I've been in my new office since February, and I still don't have my office phone number or our mailing address memorized... I have to look at my business card each time.

Agreed w/ this. A lot of times you don't even have to give people an actual address cause they already know where the complex is.

Also been at my new job 2 months and still don't know my email address yet. Definitely don't know the formal mailing address.

 

[SteveP]

Agreed w/ this. A lot of times you don't even have to give people an actual address cause they already know where the complex is.

Also been at my new job 2 months and still don't know my email address yet. Definitely don't know the formal mailing address.

I get that, but I'm not sure comparing knowing your physical work address to knowing the address where you live is exactly comparing apples to apples. Most people probably do not get actual mail on a regular basis at their work, but I would think over the course of three or four months, snail mail had been delivered to her on more than a few occasions. Aside from bills, I still get junk mail regularly, as do most people I know. Are we to assume she had never noticed the address on her mail enough times to remember it?? Also, I think young people tend to shop online more often than some of us older folks, and while it has exploded in the last few years, I think it was still pretty popular five years ago as well. Not being argumentative, I just find it hard to believe someone lives somewhere three to four months and yet has trouble remembering their address. JMO

 

[Whiskers16]

I get that, but I'm not sure comparing knowing your physical work address to knowing the address where you live is exactly comparing apples to apples. Most people probably do not get actual mail on a regular basis at their work, but I would think over the course of three or four months, snail mail had been delivered to her on more than a few occasions. Aside from bills, I still get junk mail regularly, as do most people I know. Are we to assume she had never noticed the address on her mail enough times to remember it?? Also, I think young people tend to shop online more often than some of us older folks, and while it has exploded in the last few years, I think it was still pretty popular five years ago as well. Not being argumentative, I just find it hard to believe someone lives somewhere three to four months and yet has trouble remembering their address. JMO

When I was in college the physical address of my building was different from my mailing address. I basically had a PO box at a location on campus. So it's possible her mailing address was different.

 

[Skigirl]

I get that, but I'm not sure comparing knowing your physical work address to knowing the address where you live is exactly comparing apples to apples. Most people probably do not get actual mail on a regular basis at their work, but I would think over the course of three or four months, snail mail had been delivered to her on more than a few occasions. Aside from bills, I still get junk mail regularly, as do most people I know. Are we to assume she had never noticed the address on her mail enough times to remember it?? Also, I think young people tend to shop online more often than some of us older folks, and while it has exploded in the last few years, I think it was still pretty popular five years ago as well. Not being argumentative, I just find it hard to believe someone lives somewhere three to four months and yet has trouble remembering their address. JMO

I have my address filled in on Amazon and I don't have to type it in. I also get most of my bills online, so I don't really get much mail, and I don't look very carefully at the junk I do get. I think you memorize an address by having to rattle it off and fill forms in, not by receiving mail. I don't think that 3-4 months is that long for a group of people who move a lot.

ETA: I actually was pretty involved in setting up my company's new space, from getting our network wiring in, to getting our phones and our conference line, to having movers come with furniture, to having our fridge delivered -- so I had to say our address a lot of times to a lot of vendors when we were first moving in. I just didn't memorize it, for whatever reason. Whenever anyone local asks where we are, I tell them that we're in the space that used to belong to <Company>, on <Street Name> in <Complex Name>, and it's only after that if they don't know the place that I break out the address and building number.

 

[CADwrest]

Also, college kids tend to not change the address on really important stuff to their temporary addresses anyway (on their bank accounts and driver's licenses, for instance). They'll often leave them as their parents' address, so they don't have to keep changing them every time they move.

The whole thing about KR not knowing the address is a non-issue to me, because she immediately gives her location the way she best knows it, "Hawthorn at the View." It's not like she's deliberately stalling on telling the dispatcher where she is, and she ends up finding and giving the address within seconds anyway.

 

[Skigirl]

Also, college kids tend to not change the address on really important stuff to their temporary addresses anyway (on their bank accounts and driver's licenses, for instance). They'll often leave them as their parents' address, so they don't have to keep changing them every time they move.

The whole thing about KR not knowing the address is a non-issue to me, because she immediately gives her location the way she best knows it, "Hawthorn at the View." It's not like she's deliberately stalling on telling the dispatcher where she is, and she ends up finding and giving the address within seconds anyway.

Yeah, after I posted about why she might not have known it, I had the same thought -- she was not keeping their location a secret. If she wanted to stall for time, she could have just not called them for a few more minutes when she got there in the first place.

But back to my original point, I wonder about the out-of-town theory because presumably an out-of-town visitor would not be using "Hawthorne at the View" to find their apartment. They would probably have needed the address for GPS, no? However, someone who lives around Chapel Hill could easily find the complex if they just knew it was on Old Chapel Hill Road.

 

[CADwrest]

You don't need an address for a GPS, no. You can just put in a complex or business name and it can find it (or he could just search the name on the internet and find it that way). But in order for the theory to make sense, the "admirer" would have to at least know the apartment number. That's true whether he comes from out of town or lives close by.
I suggested he might be from out of town because it provided an explanation for him arriving so late and because it might provide a partial explanation for the police/witnesses not thinking of him. There are other potential explanations for those things, I just thought this one killed two birds with one stone.

 

[youlostone]

I think the out of towner angle is plausible. Especially if you consider that maybe they'd visited the complex on prior visits. That wouldn't require them needing to know the name or even the address. Also, could be someone who lived in the area previously, but didn't at the time of the murder.

 

[SteveP]

I think the out of towner angle is plausible. Especially if you consider that maybe they'd visited the complex on prior visits. That wouldn't require them needing to know the name or even the address. Also, could be someone who lived in the area previously, but didn't at the time of the murder.

The out-of-towner angle could certainly be true, and if so, I would be looking at relatives as well as as admirers, and would be looking at both girls' hometowns. But with the one degree of separation theory seeming to be probable, it just as easily could be a friend or friends of almost any of the cast of characters we know of, plus current or previous co-workers, friends of co-workers or regular customers who may have met her at Red Robin, current or former classmates, and casual acquaintances from almost anywhere, The murderer(s) could very well have been, and imo, probably were, from this area, and may still be here. JMO

 

[Gone Girl]

I have followed this thread over the years and just reread the entire thread and 118 page document with search warrants. I have also combed through others' theories on the web. I have been so hesitant to comment here because I know my feelings are not in sync with many. However, I am compelled to mention them here now.

I have some experience as a criminal lawyer and it is my belief that things are usually not as complex as the years unsolved can make them appear. I believe that my antennae as that of others' here have been raised with respect to KR because of her own behavior and proximity to the crime scene.

I believe that KR and possibly others know exactly what transpired that night and the DNA as well as other evidence do not necessarily exclude them. Certain people's DNA would be found all over that apartment as it appears many people 'bunked' there over time. I also believe that taken in bits and pieces, the evidence can lead us to many wide-ranging hypotheses. Taken in totality, however, the evidence, behavior, phone calls, messages and dynamics of that night and those preceding tell a pretty straightforward story.

That story, in mho, is one of perceived betrayal and jealousy, acted upon and ignited by the accelerants of rage and alcohol. The answers lie with the group at the club that night. In my opinion, the answers lie with KR.

 

[Skigirl]

I have followed this thread over the years and just reread the entire thread and 118 page document with search warrants. I have also combed through others' theories on the web. I have been so hesitant to comment here because I know my feelings are not in sync with many. However, I am compelled to mention them here now.

I have some experience as a criminal lawyer and it is my belief that things are usually not as complex as the years unsolved can make them appear. I believe that my antennae as that of others' here have been raised with respect to KR because of her own behavior and proximity to the crime scene.

I believe that KR and possibly others know exactly what transpired that night and the DNA as well as other evidence do not necessarily exclude them. Certain people's DNA would be found all over that apartment as it appears many people 'bunked' there over time. I also believe that taken in bits and pieces, the evidence can lead us to many wide-ranging hypotheses. Taken in totality, however, the evidence, behavior, phone calls, messages and dynamics of that night and those preceding tell a pretty straightforward story.

That story, in mho, is one of perceived betrayal and jealousy, acted upon and ignited by the accelerants of rage and alcohol. The answers lie with the group at the club that night. In my opinion, the answers lie with KR.

You are not alone (though I disagree). But other than a feeling, what evidence do you have that makes you think so? She lived there, yes. She was drinking that night. Beyond that, I see nothing beyond a very flawed statement analysis of dubious value and a subjective view that her behavior was suspicious. For the "Karena is responsible" contingent there is the very inconvenient DNA on Faith's body, in the form of semen and matching DNA on the note and the pen. Any theory simply has to explain the forensics in order to be viable, IMHO. A theory that would put Karena at the center would have to be a complicated one to explain the DNA, which would have had to come from a second person who has never had his DNA tested in connection with this crime or any other one.


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[Gone Girl]

You are not alone (though I disagree). But other than a feeling, what evidence do you have that makes you think so? She lived there, yes. She was drinking that night. Beyond that, I see nothing beyond a very flawed statement analysis of dubious value and a subjective view that her behavior was suspicious. For the "Karena is responsible" contingent there is the very inconvenient DNA on Faith's body, in the form of semen and matching DNA on the note and the pen. Any theory simply has to explain the forensics in order to be viable, IMHO. A theory that would put Karena at the center would have to be a complicated one to explain the DNA, which would have had to come from a second person who has never had his DNA tested in connection with this crime or any other one.


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I believe KR and anyone else could have been present/aware without contradicting the DNA analysis. They are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps KR didn't touch those items. Perhaps she wore gloves. Perhaps her DNA was so pervasive throughout the apartment that it eliminated her. I just don't think it is at all complex to put her and others at the scene. As for why the killers DNA does not match any known parties or show up in the system, I am not sure we have a complete picture of known associations. I am hopeful that someone does.

 

[Skigirl]

I believe KR and anyone else could have been present/aware without contradicting the DNA analysis. They are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps KR didn't touch those items. Perhaps she wore gloves. Perhaps her DNA was so pervasive throughout the apartment that it eliminated her. I just don't think it is at all complex to put her and others at the scene. As for why the killers DNA does not match any known parties or show up in the system, I am not sure we have a complete picture of known associations. I am hopeful that someone does.

Definitely, she could have been there, she could have been wearing gloves and not touched the semen on Faith's body nor the pen nor the note. But how she came to be in an apartment with a dead body that has semen on it, and with a note with the same person's DNA on it (and placed it on the bed with Faith -- I guess, where the gloves would come in), and that two or more people conspired and have kept a secret all these years, and that someone (who was not ETJ) was willing to kill and leave DNA behind on behalf or because of Karena, seems pretty complex to me. There is evidence of the involvement of one person -- the DNA donor -- but not of Karena's.

 

[Gone Girl]

Definitely, she could have been there, she could have been wearing gloves and not touched the semen on Faith's body nor the pen nor the note. But how she came to be in an apartment with a dead body that has semen on it, and with a note with the same person's DNA on it (and placed it on the bed with Faith -- I guess, where the gloves would come in), and that two or more people conspired and have kept a secret all these years, and that someone (who was not ETJ) was willing to kill and leave DNA behind on behalf or because of Karena, seems pretty complex to me. There is evidence of the involvement of one person -- the DNA donor -- but not of Karena's.

I think we have to agree to disagree here. KR did not "come to be in an apartment" where a murder happened. She actually lived in that apartment. Also, I never said the murder would need to have been committed at her behest or on her behalf. Just that she could also have been present. As far as two people conspiring and keeping a secret: it's tough, but been done before. Look at the Tara Grinstead case. You could be totally right about there being only the DNA leaving culprit. My gut tells me there's more based on everything I have seen and read thus far. Simple as that.

 

[Elementarywatsonsir]

Imho KR was a mean girl who orchestrated the event. As to keeping secrets for so long....what would make someone confess and face jail time...loss of a career at this point, etc. Unless one party is facing some
other charge that information would
be useful in, why roll?


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[Skigirl]

I think we have to agree to disagree here. KR did not "come to be in an apartment" where a murder happened. She actually lived in that apartment. Also, I never said the murder would need to have been committed at her behest or on her behalf. Just that she could also have been present. As far as two people conspiring and keeping a secret: it's tough, but been done before. Look at the Tara Grinstead case. You could be totally right about there being only the DNA leaving culprit. My gut tells me there's more based on everything I have seen and read thus far. Simple as that.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I never meant to imply otherwise. My opinion is that co-conspirators, one of whom left semen behind, is not a simpler explanation. Maybe the truth is complicated, though!

 

[anticitizen]

Imho KR was a mean girl who orchestrated the event.

I have seen absolutely no evidence for this beyond speculation. Karena's whereabouts and phone records, etc are all known from the entire day and night. Unless it's a conspiracy involving the boys she called that night and the friend who gave her a ride home AND the man who raped and killed her... which is all highly unlikely. She used Faith's phone to text and call the boy whose house she went to - when would she have time to stage a murder?

I think people see the word 'jealous' on the note that was left and are caving to stereotypes of women being catty and jealous. Men can be jealous too. The idea that Karena had some sort of hit man rapist kill her AND leave a note is pretty outrageous. As for leaving the door locked, anyone who's lived with roommates can attest that it's a pretty often custom that the last person to leave an apartment is the one who locks it, because 99% of the reason for locking is so thieves won't pilfer when the place is empty - the idea that someone is going to come in and rape and murder is unthinkable for most.

I've been following this one for several years, and even made a FOIA request for the case files obtained by 20/20 from Chapel Hill's website and received no response (20/20 was able to get more of the case files than what's floating around on the internet).

At this point I figure the perp is someone completely off the radar of the investigation. Possibly someone from the bar who either Faith or Karena rebuffed (the mistaken identity possibility means it could be either) and stalked them home, someone who lived in the apartment complex and became obsessed, etc. Or another student, which is a huge pool of suspects to sift through... UNC currently has about 30,000 students right now, for example.

Unfortunately I don't think this case is going to be cracked unless a random DNA match emerges. I don't even know if it's customary to DNA sample suspects in most arrests - as of this article from 2010, they take DNA for suspects facing murder, rape, etc charges: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7964627/ So someone arrested for minor things may not be sampled.

 

[CADwrest]

<snipped>
At this point I figure the perp is someone completely off the radar of the investigation. Possibly someone from the bar who either Faith or Karena rebuffed (the mistaken identity possibility means it could be either) and stalked them home, someone who lived in the apartment complex and became obsessed, etc. Or another student, which is a huge pool of suspects to sift through... UNC currently has about 30,000 students right now, for example.

Unfortunately I don't think this case is going to be cracked unless a random DNA match emerges. I don't even know if it's customary to DNA sample suspects in most arrests - as of this article from 2010, they take DNA for suspects facing murder, rape, etc charges: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7964627/ So someone arrested for minor things may not be sampled.

I agree with most of what you said. That’s an interesting idea about a stalker from the club. The only problem I see there is that, if someone had gotten rejected by FH or KR, that surely would have gotten mentioned by now, and LE would have looked into that person. Even if they couldn’t find him, they would probably have some video of him from the Thrill and would put that out there trying to track him down.

I think a hybrid of your theories makes more sense: A student who knew her from UNC who happened to see her at the club that night, but that didn’t interact with her there. Maybe he didn’t approach her because he’s bad at approaching women he doesn’t know well, or because she’s surrounded by a lot of guys already. But a guy like that who followed her home would feel better about making his move (even a non-violent one) once there weren’t other people around.

I also worry that he’ll be able to keep his nose clean from here on out, and that what happened that night was a combination of alcohol and collegetown drama that he might have outgrown by now. Unfortunately, I agree that a DNA match is probably the only way at this point this case will get solved, if it ever does.

 

[SteveP]

I agree with most of what you said. That&#8217;s an interesting idea about a stalker from the club. The only problem I see there is that, if someone had gotten rejected by FH or KR, that surely would have gotten mentioned by now, and LE would have looked into that person. Even if they couldn&#8217;t find him, they would probably have some video of him from the Thrill and would put that out there trying to track him down.

I think a hybrid of your theories makes more sense: A student who knew her from UNC who happened to see her at the club that night, but that didn&#8217;t interact with her there. Maybe he didn&#8217;t approach her because he&#8217;s bad at approaching women he doesn&#8217;t know well, or because she&#8217;s surrounded by a lot of guys already. But a guy like that who followed her home would feel better about making his move (even a non-violent one) once there weren&#8217;t other people around.

I also worry that he&#8217;ll be able to keep his nose clean from here on out, and that what happened that night was a combination of alcohol and collegetown drama that he might have outgrown by now. Unfortunately, I agree that a DNA match is probably the only way at this point this case will get solved, if it ever does.

I think a lot of this is very possible, and may be the most likely scenario, but I really don't believe "alcohol and collegetown drama" alone would ever lead a stable person to kill someone, so I likewise do not believe it is something a person just may "have outgrown by now". I think whoever killed Faith very probably has been or will be violent again, and I do believe that person's DNA will eventually wind up in the system, and this case will finally be solved, if it is not solved before then. JMO

 

[CADwrest]

I think a lot of this is very possible, and may be the most likely scenario, but I really don't believe "alcohol and collegetown drama" alone would ever lead a stable person to kill someone, so I likewise do not believe it is something a person just may "have outgrown by now". I think whoever killed Faith very probably has been or will be violent again, and I do believe that person's DNA will eventually wind up in the system, and this case will finally be solved, if it is not solved before then. JMO

I wasn't meaning to imply that he's stable, exactly, or that all that was needed for this to happen was alcohol and immaturity.

But the college years do add a lot of stresses that are fairly unique to those years.


There's the pressure of being out on your own for the first time. There's trying to fit into a social scene that's almost constantly active and changing. There's the stress of engaging the opposite sex, and your perceived effectiveness at it, and the threat of rejection if you fail. Looming over everything is the expectation that you'll do well in your studies and land a good job afterwards. Add drugs and alcohol as accelerants, and you have a situation that can cause people to snap and act in ways they otherwise wouldn't.


All of those factors diminish to a greater or lesser extent once you move on. I'm also of the opinion that this perp didn't show up there intending to kill Faith, but that him being there was a result of a string of circumstances and decisions that were very heavily influenced by the collegetown environment. Once he was in place, getting rejected, on top of the pressures he's already under (and IMO, wasn't dealing with well), and being in an impaired state, all resulted in him exploding and killing her.


He's been extremely fortunate to have escaped detection, and as a result may have moved on to a different phase of life, one where the same combination of circumstances aren't going to repeat.


That's what worries me- that he's not necessarily violent by nature and not really prone to run ins with the law, and may never get arrested for anything serious.


Of course, I'm hoping that isn't true and, as always, this read on the perp might be completely wrong. It's just where I am in my thinking about the case right now.