Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, Oct 2017 #1

[Lilibet]

Original comment was edited with link to AP.

The phrases "injured child" and "gunbattle" are from Boyle's Toronto airport press conference, repeated by news media many times. No original source.
Enclosed in quotation marks is quoted from Boyle's written statement passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict on the aircraft. Source: AP Archives.

Another detail misreported by Associated Press from Boyle's written note. The four-year-old boy was the injured child that needed medical care after the gunbattle, not the newborn girl as reported extensively. (Boyle's airport press conference).

The note passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict said:
"Najaeshi is in the worst physical health in the family. Our Pakistani rescuers essentially had to forcefeed him, and initially believed he had been shot and was exsanguinating largely based on deathly appearance - and this medical intervention doubtless had to delay our return slightly."

The four-year-old boy. Not the newborn girl. Boyle said they thought he'd been shot and was bleeding to death. That was the point of the comment.

Thanks for the link. I hadn’t seen that video, so I see now that the points you were making were in the note shown on screen. Not doubting you, but just wanted to see what you were referring to in it’s entirety. Thanks again.

 

[Bodhi]

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...ficial-account-of-her-rescue-in-pakistan.html OCT 23

In first sit-down interview, Caitlan Coleman tells of forced abortion, disputes official account of her rescue in Pakistan. OCT 23, 2017

“We were not crossing into Pakistan that day,” Coleman said on the grounds of an Ottawa hospital on Monday, and claims made by Islamabad and Washington that they were rescued Oct. 11 after crossing the border are false.

Glad Caitlan spoke directly to a reporter. Her daughter slept on her lap for part of the interview. It isn't stated where the baby was the rest of the time. So Joshua or another adult may have been nearby.

I was struck that she wouldn't say whether she converted. Her hijab, naming her fetus "Martyr", make it seem like she did. I really don't care what her religion is. But since religion is so central to her, it seems like a disconnect. As if they don't want people to know but her husband's statements and her hijab seem to show they want people to know.

The story of poisoning her food to cause a miscarriage seems unlikely to me. I read the article in The Times of London yesterday about Bowe Bergdahl written by a British journalist who'd been a hostage for a few months. The officer in charge of debriefing Bergdahl after his return talked about his delusions. The hostage thought his captors were poisoning his food so wouldn't eat it. Despite the fact that they had no need to use a stealthy, slow method to kill him. He knew they would have no compunction about decapitating him with a dull blade.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...from-hell-world-exclusive-interview-rppkznvkj


Hostages become paranoid understandably. Caitlan could have come to believe she was poisoned with estrogen to cause a miscarriage. I suspect that Joshua, with his grandiose view of himself, may have made her miscarriage an act of retribution against him. And he had years of continued captivity with her to harp on it. How would you ever know whether estrogen was added to food? Why wouldn't the captors force her to take birth control pillls , repeat the poisoning for the next two pregnancies, or kill the newborns.

 

[FightTheOstrich]

One of my biggest takeaways - JB could understand some Farsi. CC I assume could not. So she was totally dependent on him for information at least in the beginning. Perhaps overtime she became more familiar with the language of her captors.

It's also interesting that they were separated in the beginning. With JB having no contact with CC and his son. How did they know when they chose to expand their family that they wouldn't be separated again? Who was going to play midwife with a flashlight if they weren't together?

 

[Bodhi]

I'm trying to understand the timeline. I am not bashing this victim or trying to nitpick but Caitlan's statements in the interview don't seem to mesh. In most circumstances, it'd be understandable if recollections or retellings are jumbled after 5 years in dire circumstances. But Joshua's curious statements have reading Caitlan's spoken words (as opposed to e-mail attributed to her) more closely to understand what happened to them.

There is not a lot of time for the second pregnancy to have occurred between the pregnancies with each of the boys. Yet Caitlan indicates they were separated for more than a year.

Being alone, pregnant, and not speaking the language must have been terrifying. Did anyone assist her during the delivery and the early days? I can't imagine giving birth in those circumstances, even with a midwife, that I would willingly put myself in that situation 3 more times. She is braver than I am if it was her choice. Maybe her faith means she puts her trust in God rather than her agency.

The major flag from her interview is that if Josh was separated from her for a year and not allowed to see her or the baby, where was he? Could she hear him or see him out a window? Or is she unable to verify where he was for that year?

The account of him rejecting their recruitment offers could be true. Or it could be that he joined them but then "washed out". Perhaps the group realized he was not the asset he portrayed himself to be.

This real life story has me imagining a fantastical plot for a novel. A man insinuates himself into a terrorist case and marries into the family at the heart of it. When the marriage fails, his cache evaporates. He marries a naive woman who'd been infatuated with him for years, conceives a child with her and brings her to the region tribal areas of Afghanistan. The wife and baby provide him with a cover story as a hostage for an eventual return to the West. His long academic interest in terrorism and Islamic terrorism is now coupled with first-hand experience, providing him the recognition he craves or laying the groundwork for something more diabolical, In real life, I don't think most people could mastermind such a plot and carry it off.

 

[Fire Dragon]

Caitlan indicates they were separated for more than a year.

She doesn't say how long separations were. A few hours, a few days, a few months, a year. I couldn't tell; I'll read it again.Talented practised lies are like that; a vague basis of truth somewhere and the listener fills in the blanks.

Boyle spoke a few words of Farsi. I wonder why and when he picked it up. Wrong language. One would think if they were on a mission to visit remote isolated Afghanistan tribal villages, they would both learn Pashto and/or Dari.
• Obviously, the captors spoke English.
• Knowing a few words of Farsi doesn't mean Boyle would know where they were, the towns, which side of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

Estrogen poisoning in food. How? She was served her own individual plates of food that were not shared with Boyle and baby? Did she breastfeed while pregnant, how and what did she feed her baby? What form of pharmaceutical would the Taliban/Haqqani network be packing around, on the run? Packets of birth control pills that they crushed up and stirred into the food? Probably not.

Boyle is an anti-abortion activist. The story is he met his first wife at an abortion protest. Very common belief that birth control pills are an abortifacient drug, so easy to see where that idea came from.

Fact: estrogen levels naturally increase dramatically during pregnancy.

 

[Fire Dragon]

How did they know ... they wouldn't be separated again? Who was going to play midwife with a flashlight if they weren't together?

Exactly. She says Boyle wasn't allowed to see the first boy or spend any time with them. Terrifying; a parent's worst nightmare. Not being able to protect a child and the ever-present spectre of death, leaving a baby or tiny child behind in terrible circumstances and at the mercy of captors.
I suppose Boyle hadn't seen 'Kite Runner'.

 

[Bellbaby]

I'm reading all the posts in the past day in regards to CC/CB interview with the star. Her interview added another layer of confusion, as demonstrated by the savvy forum members who made many great points. I can't contribute anything more. I wanted to say kudos on the good points. There are way too many discrepancies between the conflicting stories and someone/country is not being honest. I really hope the authorities are watching this whole situation.

 

[human]

Remember the book Two Cups of Tea? Is that the title? I heard him speak. Loved the book. So impressed.

Turned out he was a fake. Maybe JB wanted to improve on the story.

 

[Lilibet]

When CC said JB understands a little Farsi, I figured he had picked it up from his first wife’s family, who spent time in Afghanistan. I have Persian-speaking friends (Iranian) and I’ve messed around with learning a few phrases. It’s not a super hard language to learn, unlike Arabic and Chinese. My friends tell me that when speaking English it’s called Persian, not Farsi...which would be like calling Spanish “espanol” when speaking English. But I hear it called Farsi a lot, so that technicality is overlooked.

Here’s an interesting explanation of the differences (few) between Farsi and Dari. Pashto is also mentioned in the article.

Pashto is one of two official languages of Afghanistan; it is the national language and the lyrics of the Afghan national anthem. Dari is the other official language of Afghanistan. It is spoken as a native language in the north and west of Afghanistan and it is also a common language of communication in the capital city, Kabul.

Dari and Farsi are two accents of the same language. Dari is also called Farsi in Afghanistan while it is mostly referred to as Farsi in Iran. Farsi is also called Persian in the English language. In this article, Dari is referred to as the accent spoken in Afghanistan and Farsi is referred to as the accent spoken in Iran.
What are the differences between Dari and Farsi?
Dari and Farsi speakers can understand each other and conduct communications very easily. In general, there are few differences between formal Dari and Farsi. However, when spoken informally, the differences increase between the two accents. In other words, when watching news on TV, the difference is not very noticeable. But if an Afghan Dari speaker is in Tehran, the capital of Iran, shopping in the local market, they may face some communication problems at the beginning. These differences are more noticeable in vocabulary and pronunciation than syntax.
In comparison to Farsi, Dari uses more English borrowed words.

http://dlsdc.com/blog/pashto-dari-and-farsi-one-language-or-three/

 

[bluesneakers]

Remember the book Two Cups of Tea? Is that the title? I heard him speak. Loved the book. So impressed.

Turned out he was a fake. Maybe JB wanted to improve on the story.

Three Cups of Tea. I had no idea about the controversy!

In April 2011, critiques and challenges of the book and Mortenson surfaced. Author Jon Krakauer alleged that a number of Mortenson's claims in the book are fictitious and accused him of mismanaging CAI funds

On the April 17, 2011 broadcast of CBS News' 60 Minutes, correspondent Steve Kroft alleged inaccuracies in Mortenson's books Three Cups of Tea and its sequel, Stones into Schools: Promoting Peace with Books, Not Bombs, in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as financial improprieties in the operation of the Central Asia Institute. In particular, CBS News disputed Mortenson's claim that he got lost near K2 and ended up in Korphe, his capture by the Taliban in 1996, the number of schools built and supported by CAI, and the propriety of using CAI funds for Mortenson's book tours. 60 Minutes asked Mortenson for an interview before their broadcast, but he did not respond to their requests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Cups_of_Tea

 

[Fire Dragon]

@human - Greg Mortenson and David Relin. Highly controversial.
Three Cups of Tea: One Man's Mission to Fight Terrorism One School at a Time. 2006
Three Cups of Tea: One Man's Journey to Change The World…One Child at a Time. Mortenson, Greg; Relin, David Oliver; signature by Amira Mortenson, forward by Jane Goddall. 2009.
Listen To The Wind: The Story of Dr. Greg and Three Cups of Tea, (Children's book). Mortenson, Greg. 2009


In 2010, South Asian scholar and anthropologist, Nosheen Ali, criticized Three Cups of Tea in that “it constructs a misleading narrative of terror in which the realities of Northern Pakistan and Muslim life-worlds are distorted through simplistic tropes of ignorance, backwardness and extremism, while histories of US geopolitics and violence are erased.”
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01436591003701075

Three Cups of Deceit — How Greg Mortenson, Humanitarian Hero, Lost His Way. Krakauer, Jon. 2011
http://www.byliner.com/jon-krakauer/

 

[Bodhi]

Interesting! It's Three Cups of Tea, actually. Boyle's plans may well have paralleled it.

Did you hear Greg Mortenson, the mountain climber/school builder, speak or the co-author David Relin? Relin claimed sole authorship but was listed as a co-author. The accuracy of the events in the story and in Mortenson's handling of the money raised for the charity were challenged by 60 Minutes and Jon Krakauer. Relin later committed suicide.

Mortenson's followup book included having been kidnapped by the Taliban. The supposed captors claimed he'd been a guest. And locals stated the Taliban didn't exist there at the time he claimed he was held.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I think he was either recruited or it was like try before you buy.

Regardless of what she consented to, I hope she has had enough. I do think she should stay in Canada while getting medical treatment.

 

[Lilibet]

Remember the book Two Cups of Tea? Is that the title? I heard him speak. Loved the book. So impressed.

Turned out he was a fake. Maybe JB wanted to improve on the story.

Interesting! It's Three Cups of Tea, actually. Boyle's plans may well have paralleled it.

Did you hear Greg Mortenson, the mountain climber/school builder, speak or the co-author David Relin? Relin claimed sole authorship but was listed as a co-author. The accuracy of the events in the story and in Mortenson's handling of the money raised for the charity were challenged by 60 Minutes and Jon Krakauer. Relin later committed suicide.

Mortenson's followup book included having been kidnapped by the Taliban. The supposed captors claimed he'd been a guest. And locals stated the Taliban didn't exist there at the time he claimed he was held.

BBM

In this long but worthwhile article Krakauer details the twists, turns and spinning done by Mortenson each time he was presented with facts disputing details of his story. It’s almost a playbook for anyone with an iffy story. If the details are lies, how can anyone believe the whole story? But when a story warms their hearts and the storyteller stonewalls about the truth and attacks his attackers, people seem to be willing to believe...and donate despite corruption.

https://medium.com/galleys/greg-mor...eves-he-will-have-the-last-laugh-760949b1f964

 

[Fire Dragon]

Boyle: murder of infant daughter in retaliation for refusal to accept an offer. Subsequent rape of wife, supervised by commandant Abu Hajer [Hajar, Hajaar] of the Haqqani network. Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan [IEA,Taliban] carried out an investigation last year [2016] and conceded that these crimes were perpetrated by the Haqqani network in 2014.

Boyle's parents' video addressed specific Taliban/Haqqani leaders:
Mawlawi Hibatullah Akhundzada - Leader of IEA (#1). Replaced Mullah Mansour, killed in US drone strike in Pakistan, May 2016. Mansour replaced Mohammed Omar (died in 2013).
Sirajuddin Haqqani - Haqqani network leader. Deputy leader (#2) of the Taliban.

Caitlan Coleman's parents video plea (June 2016) addressed the same men and Mohammed Yaqoob (Omar's eldest son). Taliban second deputy (#3). These guys are all Afghan Taliban.

Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) -- They are not the Taliban that US forces are battling in Afghanistan. TTP is not directly affiliated with the Afghan Taliban movement led by Haibatullah Akhundzada; the groups differ in history, strategic goals and interests although they are both predominantly Pashtun. The TTP works with some militant groups, such as the Haqqani Network.

TTP claimed responsibility for the IED bomb blast following Boyle/Coleman's rescue that killed four Pakistani forces soldiers, said to be searching for the escaped kidnappers.

All these names and militant terrorist groups, does it matter? Yes.
In February 2014, the US Treasury Department sanctioned Haqqani network leaders.

Who is Haqqani network commandant Abu Hajar?

Boyle is not the brilliant but eccentric intellectual powerhouse he's been made out to be. He wrote some Wikipedia articles.

 

[K_Z]

I thought I had read that JB and CC met online, on sites for avid Star Wars enthusiasts?

Boyle and Coleman met online as teenaged Star Wars movie fans and became friends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Joshua_Boyle_and_Caitlan_Coleman

So, did JB and CC know each other BEFORE JB's first marriage to the daughter of the terrorist? That's a huge issue, IMO.

Boyle is a Canadian who met Coleman on the Internet where they bonded over Star Wars.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mily-kidnapped-5-years-afghanistan/757168001/

The focus in their early relationship on "fantasy wars" and the epic battles over good and evil in that space opera, has always appeared to me to be rather telling as to JB's supposed "fantasy humanitarian pursuits." Which he apparently thought he could pursue without being associated with any NGO or humanitarian group. Somehow, he was going to make his mark on the humanitarian needy of the middle east (the "safe stans"), by himself, without any $$, no job or job skills, no support, backing or networking? With a pregnant wife in tow? Did no one in their sphere of influence see how insane that plan was? I'm truly dumbfounded.

And IMO, the "fantasy humanitarian pursuits" are likely to have been a cover story for his fantasies about joining the middle east islamist jihadists, and becoming some kind of western islamist hero. Remember American born Anwar Al Alwaki from Falls Church, VA?? (Reference Boyle's first marriage to the daughter of the terrorist.)

No, no big red flags there, right?

CC appears to have been a rather sheltered, naive young woman immersed in fantasy daydreams of her own when she met JB. Their combined deficits in these areas of planning, good decision making, realism vs fantasy, coupled with the inability of their families to influence them to make good decisions, led them to a disastrous, and completely avoidable situation. IMO.

I think they both have baseline, very serious, persistent, mental and psychological issues, that are now exacerbated by their trip to the middle east, and experience there in captivity. They both need a lot of supervision, mental health care, and ongoing monitoring, IMO. Family services need to be closely involved until all of the kids are at least 18 years old. IMO.

 

[Maroon10]

They chose to go there originally of their own free will right?

 

[Fire Dragon]

View attachment 125370View attachment 125371

 

[K_Z]

@human - Greg Mortenson and David Relin. Highly controversial.
Three Cups of Tea: One Man's Mission to Fight Terrorism One School at a Time. 2006
Three Cups of Tea: One Man's Journey to Change The World…One Child at a Time. Mortenson, Greg; Relin, David Oliver; signature by Amira Mortenson, forward by Jane Goddall. 2009.
Listen To The Wind: The Story of Dr. Greg and Three Cups of Tea, (Children's book). Mortenson, Greg. 2009


In 2010, South Asian scholar and anthropologist, Nosheen Ali, criticized Three Cups of Tea in that “it constructs a misleading narrative of terror in which the realities of Northern Pakistan and Muslim life-worlds are distorted through simplistic tropes of ignorance, backwardness and extremism, while histories of US geopolitics and violence are erased.”
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01436591003701075

Three Cups of Deceit — How Greg Mortenson, Humanitarian Hero, Lost His Way. Krakauer, Jon. 2011
http://www.byliner.com/jon-krakauer/

Excellent analogy. JB had a plan, and a back up plan in case plan "A" didn't work out. JB POSED as a "Greg Mortenson wannabee". That was his back up plan, IMO. Plan A was "western islamist savior". IMO.

I think this has a lot to do with "why" the U.S. government press release was so stark and non-committal about their status, and didn't mention Canada at all.

Yes, he went of his own free will. IMO, he manipulated/ persuaded/ beguiled her into the trip. She went of her own free will, too.

Many people, in western societies, frequently feel they are "entitled" to make colossally, horribly bad life decisions. The serious problems begin when someone's very bad decisions impact other people. And/ or require substantial tax resources.

Maybe I'm alone in my opinion, but I don't think we should expend government diplomacy, military members and their safety, and substantial resources "rescuing" western private citizens who *intentionally* go to dangerous and violent parts of the world and put themselves in harm's way. They should understand they will be on their own, or appeal to NGOs if they need to be rescued. And I'd feel the same way if it was my own grown child or family member. There should be no expectation the U.S. government will intervene, or mount substantial "rescue" efforts if a citizen CHOOSES to go to a very dangerous and troubled part of the world. Free choice = acceptance of consequences. IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

We need a link for the screen shot...sorry to bug you, but it’s a GREAT find!! These commenters are not buying it. Of course they’re blaming CC’s story on the CIA! The sticking point/red flag for them is CC saying that JB knew where they were because he understood Farsi (Dari) but these commenters say Haqqani speak Pashtun. That language is not the same as Dari. According to the article I posted earlier....

Pashto, on the other hand, is a different language than Dari or Farsi. Speakers of Pashto and Dari may not understand each other unless they are exposed to it. However, they share the same alphabet, some words, geography and culture. Pashto and Dari both use the Arabic alphabet which consists of 28 letters. Dari has added 4 letters of its own to the Arabic alphabet making its alphabet 32 letters and Pashto has added 12 letters to the Arabic alphabet making its alphabet 40 letters.
Since Pashto and Dari are spoken in the same geographical region, the speakers of one language are very often exposed to the other language. Most major cities in Afghanistan host both Pashto and Dari native speakers. Most Pashto native speakers in these cities speak Dari as a second language, but very few Dari native speakers may speak Pashto as their second language. Education is provided to kids in their native language and they start studying Pashto or Dari as second language in the 4th grade.
Underlined by me

It may be that these Haqqani also know Dari, but it seems unlikely they would speak it in front of JB and it’s unlikely he would also know Pashtun. The only thing JB may have understood are place names if they are similar in both languages, as they are in other foreign languages. So CC could be correct in a way. But I’m not sure he could have enough familiarity with place names to recognize them. Hard to say.

http://dlsdc.com/blog/pashto-dari-and-farsi-one-language-or-three/