Robert Ressler on JonBenet's Murder

[Toltec]

I wanted to read what Robert Ressler, a retired FBI Behavioral Scientist thought about the Ramsey murder.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/ressb.html

What really caught my eye was his take on the ransom note and why the word "we" was used.

Ressler says that they are just trying to more or less conceal and distance themselves. To distance oneself by creating an impression that they're a much larger organization than in fact they are.

Why a kidnapping note? To create in their own minds a hope that their dead daughter will be coming back!

 

[Solace]

I wanted to read what Robert Ressler, a retired FBI Behavioral Scientist thought about the Ramsey murder.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/ressb.html

What really caught my eye was his take on the ransom note and why the word "we" was used.

Ressler says that they are just trying to more or less conceal and distance themselves. To distance oneself by creating an impression that they're a much larger organization than in fact they are.

Why a kidnapping note? To create in their own minds a hope that their dead daughter will be coming back!

He is a very interesting profiler. He worked with John Wayne Gacy and he basically submerged himself in the man's life.

 

[Eagle1]

I didn't read the article you're referencing, but I have a hunch it was written pretty early in the game, probably before he'd heard of Stanton's testimony of hearing metal (hitting and?) scraping on concrete near the vent duct. Or the fact that, as far as I know, we've never ever had a murder case in the news where someone was raped with a broken paint brush handle, not even Sybil's mother, but we have had instances of guys using foreign objects. One example, in a book about the Michigan co-ed murders, 2 or maybe 3 white cars were seen at the edge of a woods one night, down a dirt lane, and a woman's scream was heard, who was later found raped with part of a tree branch, and dead. Some of you may be able to cite additional examples that I didn't think at the time I'd need to remember.

I have no opinion on who was or were the murderer or murderers, but very obviously intruders could have studied Patsy's handwriting while plotting this whole thing and could have written a ransom note.

Ressler maybe just hadn't thought about all of it enough, or was going along with BPD. Parents sometimes kill, but absolutely nobody, in all this time, trying desperately, has been able to prove the bereaved Ramseys did this. It just can't be done , with what's known so far, let's face it.

Keeping it simple hasn't worked. It's a complicated case, and evidently pre-meditated very carefully, professionally. But don't ask me what professional. I'm not in haters' and killers' inner circle. How would I know? None of us were there, I think it's safe to assume. Neither was Ressler, who failed to consider all these points.

 

[Solace]

I didn't read the article you're referencing, but I have a hunch it was written pretty early in the game, probably before he'd heard of Stanton's testimony of hearing metal (hitting and?) scraping on concrete near the vent duct. Or the fact that, as far as I know, we've never ever had a murder case in the news where someone was raped with a broken paint brush handle, not even Sybil's mother, but we have had instances of guys using foreign objects. One example, in a book about the Michigan co-ed murders, 2 or maybe 3 white cars were seen at the edge of a woods one night, down a dirt lane, and a woman's scream was heard, who was later found raped with part of a tree branch, and dead. Some of you may be able to cite additional examples that I didn't think at the time I'd need to remember.

I have no opinion on who was or were the murderer or murderers, but very obviously intruders could have studied Patsy's handwriting while plotting this whole thing and could have written a ransom note.

Ressler maybe just hadn't thought about all of it enough, or was going along with BPD. Parents sometimes kill, but absolutely nobody, in all this time, trying desperately, has been able to prove the bereaved Ramseys did this. It just can't be done , with what's known so far, let's face it.

Keeping it simple hasn't worked. It's a complicated case, and evidently pre-meditated very carefully, professionally. But don't ask me what professional. I'm not in haters' and killers' inner circle. How would I know? None of us were there, I think it's safe to assume. Neither was Ressler, who failed to consider all these points.

Hi Eagle:

I did not realize that Stanton was that specific about where he heard the scraping metal. How could he know it was near the vent? It could be anywhere from around the house area?

 

[Toltec]

Hi Eagle:

I did not realize that Stanton was that specific about where he heard the scraping metal. How could he know it was near the vent? It could be anywhere from around the house area?

I don't believe he did...

Steve Thomas said that the DA's office would not let BPD interview the Stantons???

 

[Eagle1]

Hi Eagle:

I did not realize that Stanton was that specific about where he heard the scraping metal. How could he know it was near the vent? It could be anywhere from around the house area?

You're right. Stanton of course didn't mention where in the Rs' house the metal noise was coming from.

There was testing to see whether sounds that carried across the street could have been heard on the third floor where the parents were, and it was reported I believe that because of the vent DUCT in the basment, Stanton could hear but the parents could not. I should have detailed that, sorry. It's my own assumption that it must have been near the duct.

And that the bare concrete and the duct must have been close together in something like a furnace room, boiler room, or whatever it was called, with no floor tile. Was it a bad guess on my part? Would anyone disagree?

 

[JMO8778]

You're right. Stanton of course didn't mention where in the Rs' house the metal noise was coming from.

There was testing to see whether sounds that carried across the street could have been heard on the third floor where the parents were, and it was reported I believe that because of the vent DUCT in the basment, Stanton could hear but the parents could not. I should have detailed that, sorry. It's my own assumption that it must have been near the duct.

And that the bare concrete and the duct must have been close together in something like a furnace room, boiler room, or whatever it was called, with no floor tile. Was it a bad guess on my part? Would anyone disagree?

the floor in the WC was concrete,of course..(most ppl know that by now,I think).It's been speculated the scraping sound was from paint cans,(which were found in the WC),being moved across the floor.Since it's unlikely an intruder who'd just committed murder would bother to put the grate BACK,thus risking making further noise...I think it was likely the paint cans.I think they were moved aside in order to accomodate JB's body.

 

[BlueCrab]

the floor in the WC was concrete,of course..(most ppl know that by now,I think).It's been speculated the scraping sound was from paint cans,(which were found in the WC),being moved across the floor.Since it's unlikely an intruder who'd just committed murder would bother to put the grate BACK,thus risking making further noise...I think it was likely the paint cans.I think they were moved aside in order to accomodate JB's body.

JMO8778,

I don't think that moving full paint cans out of the way would make enough noise to be heard through the furnace air duct to the outside and to the Stanton's house down the street. Cans of paint, unless empty, would make more of a thud sound. But at least we're beginning to think out of the box, which is sorely needed in this case.

If I were an IDI enthusiast (which I am not because the Ramseys wouldn't be covering up for an intruder who killed their daughter), I would say the intruder used an aluminum ladder to access JonBenet's concrete balcony and enter her bedroom through the unlocked door from the balcony. The scraping noise heard by Luther Stanton would have been the intruder taking down the aluminum ladder and having it scrape against JonBenet's concrete balcony.

BlueCrab

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

I don't think that moving full paint cans out of the way would make enough noise to be heard through the furnace air duct to the outside and to the Stanton's house down the street. Cans of paint, unless empty, would make more of a thud sound. But at least we're beginning to think out of the box, which is sorely needed in this case

You'd be surprised at how well sound can travel,depending on various factors,one being even the wind.Even without it,I live over a mile away from a school,yet if conditions are just right,we can still hear football games,the band,clapping,cheering,etc.,as if it were right next door,and it's not just b/c it's loud either.
If the sounds were magnified thru the air duct,I don't think there would be any problem hearing paint cans being moved across the floor.

If I were an IDI enthusiast (which I am not because the Ramseys wouldn't be covering up for an intruder who killed their daughter), I would say the intruder used an aluminum ladder to access JonBenet's concrete balcony and enter her bedroom through the unlocked door from the balcony. The scraping noise heard by Luther Stanton would have been the intruder taking down the aluminum ladder and having it scrape against JonBenet's concrete balcony.

They could come up with that as an explanation,sure, but the Stantons would have also likely heard clanging sounds of a ladder being folded up,which they didn't report.

 

[Eagle1]

JMO8778,

I don't think that moving full paint cans out of the way would make enough noise to be heard through the furnace air duct to the outside and to the Stanton's house down the street. Cans of paint, unless empty, would make more of a thud sound. But at least we're beginning to think out of the box, which is sorely needed in this case.

If I were an IDI enthusiast (which I am not because the Ramseys wouldn't be covering up for an intruder who killed their daughter), I would say the intruder used an aluminum ladder to access JonBenet's concrete balcony and enter her bedroom through the unlocked door from the balcony. The scraping noise heard by Luther Stanton would have been the intruder taking down the aluminum ladder and having it scrape against JonBenet's concrete balcony.

BlueCrab

ST said early in his book there were no footprints in the frost of the covered balcony. Nobody came in that way. (About pg 53, if my memory is correct, paperback. I very well may be wrong about the page number.)

I agree the paint cans probably wouldn't make that much noise, wish they'd tell us more exactly what Stanton thought could have been making the sound. It's probably in BPD's records.

Seems the killer either knew already before police testing that noise in the basement couldn't be heard upstairs, or for some reason didn't care.

Maybe he was high on something? Or had some kind of immunity and knew the R's couldn't do anything about him? In the news right now, which I haven't read yet in detail, there's something about years of abuse of gov't programs, like Patriot Act. We had several before that, Echelon, Carnivore, and I heard something on TV about an FBI confession. Strange things were happening and culprits had immunity even before Nixon and company?

I'm thinking of the assasinations with impunity of the Kennedy brothers, Dr. King, etc. Allegedly there was a tape of him with a woman, but it could obviously have been his wife. Do you get the feeling such a malicious hater is still out there? JR wasn't in national politics, of course, but the nervy perp picked on that family because irritated by beauty queens and also was just running out of devilish things to do, and too used-to never getting caught?

I read in one of the books about Dallas that witnesses were all told they would get labelled prostitutes or, for the men, drunks. But within a decade most of them had died even though they kept quiet.

On MSNBC last night they were discussing deaths in Russia, of colleagues who'd been critical of the gov't there. Allergic to poison, and like that.
Maybe someone else saw more of it than I did.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree the paint cans probably wouldn't make that much noise, wish they'd tell us more exactly what Stanton thought could have been making the sound. It's probably in BPD's records.

I don't know for sure that it couldn't have,but the R's expect us to believe that the scraping sound could be the grate,which was even further away.

Seems the killer either knew already before police testing that noise in the basement couldn't be heard upstairs, or for some reason didn't care.

I think the perp wasn't worried b/c in was in his/her own home.

Maybe he was high on something? Or had some kind of immunity and knew the R's couldn't do anything about him?

high,no,arrogant..yes.and the immunity was money.

Do you get the feeling such a malicious hater is still out there?

not unless you count JR.
but these are JMO's,I'm not making fun of your theories,of course you're entitled to those.

 

[K777angel]

Robert Ressler is a terrific profiler. He's spoken on the Ramsey case several times. I have alot of respect for him.

As for the "sounds" heard in the night - why does everyone assume that any sounds heard during the night in that neighborhood HAD to have come from the Ramsey home and be related to the death of JonBenet?
It may very well be ("if" there were indeed sounds as Stanton described) that those sounds came from some innocuous source of a another neighbors home.
So while it's a piece of information, when you look at the TOTALITY of the evidence in this case, ANY "intruder" theory simply makes no sense.
So - using logic, this sound that Stanton heard most likely came from some source other than the Ramsey home.

To the poster who said that it's never ever been "proven" that the Ramseys were involved in the death of their daughter/sister - that is because the case has never gone to trial.
Just because no one has been arrested does NOT mean that the authorities do not KNOW who was involved.
I believe that they do.
But you cannot arrest someone without being able to prove that "this one did this and that one did that" during the course of the crime.
The crime scene was a mess - both due to "staging within staging" as the FBI stated; and the slop job the BPD did in preserving the scene that day.

Add to that a whimpy DA who is afraid of the big, powerful attorneys the Ramseys could and did afford to protect them - and this case was doomed.

Bottom Line Evidence/Facts:

*Little 6 yr old girl is beaten and molested on Christmas night in her home.

*Parents call the police early the next morning and claim she was kidnapped. The LEAST likely night of the entire year - Christmas. A night when nearly all families KNOW where their loved ones are.

*Parents produce a "ransom note" that is three pages long. This "note" claims there are more than one kidnapper involved yet vascilates between using the singular "I" and the plural "we" in the note when referring to them/him/her.

*Note claims they have their daughter and will kill her if they do not give them money.

*Ransom demand is meager and an odd amount compared to Ramseys wealth.

*When police arrive at the Ramsey home, Patsy Ramsey is not only in full make-up and her hair done - but is wearing the SAME outfit she had on the night before.

*Police note in their reports that the Ramsey's acted oddly that morning and noted that they behaved as if a "death" had occurred rather than a kidnapping.

*Parents lied about their son Burke being awake during those first hours that morning. NO NEED for this lie whatsoever unless he too was involved an/or had knowledge that would incriminate the family.

*Even though the note warned the Ramsey's NOT to call police or anyone - they not only call police - but friends and pastor to come over "right away"!

*Even though the note warned that the Ramseys every move was being watched and "monitored" - they felt absolutely NO FEAR in sending off their 9-almost 10 year old son Burke across town to "friends" home. Leaving HIM vulnerable to being kidnapped as well. Especially in light of the fact that the Ramseys defied the notes instructions (by callling police and friends) which would be obvious to the "kidnappers" who were "monitoring and watching" them.

"Ramseys lawyered up from day one - and immediately adopted the perspective that the police were the enemy - NOT the killer/s of their daughter. In fact - they told the nation the day after they buried her that they "weren't angry" but just needed to "move on."

*20 minutes after "finding" his daughter DEAD in his basement, her father phones his pilot and asks him to ready the planes to whisk his family away that night out of the state - leaving his tiny daughter's body all alone. Unbelievable.

*Ramseys could not speak to the police (never mind badger them with questions on the progress in the case as innocent parents of murdered children do) - yet they were able to go on national television (CNN) and submit themselves to an interview for the world. This clearly defined the motivation utmost in their minds - then - and forever more - to try and rectify their "good name." NOT - to find this killer.

*Even after the parents "discovered" that their daughter never was in fact kidnapped, no ransom money was ever sought, etc. - they STILL defended that ransom note! Why? Because they HOPED to manipulate people/authorities into still buying it. Which was the whole purpose of the note to begin with. Deflect attention away from what REALLY happened to their daughter.

There is of course much, much more. But it isn't even necessary to keep going.

 

[icedtea4me]

*Police note in their reports that the Ramsey's acted oddly that morning and noted that they behaved as if a "death" had occurred rather than a kidnapping.

I seem to recall from the MSNBC Investigates program on the Susan Smith case that when David Smith went over to the house where Susan went to after letting her car with her kids go into the lake he found her lying on the floor sobbing hysterically.

*Even though the note warned that the Ramseys every move was being watched and "monitored" - they felt absolutely NO FEAR in sending off their 9-almost 10 year old son Burke across town to "friends" home. Leaving HIM vulnerable to being kidnapped as well. Especially in light of the fact that the Ramseys defied the notes instructions (by callling police and friends) which would be obvious to the "kidnappers" who were "monitoring and watching" them.

And Burke never said anything like "Please find my sister and bring her back safe and sound" to any of the police officers there that morning, did he?


-Tea

 

[BBB167893]

Ressler maybe just hadn't thought about all of it enough, or was going along with BPD. Parents sometimes kill, but absolutely nobody, in all this time, trying desperately, has been able to prove the bereaved Ramseys did this. It just can't be done , with what's known so far, let's face it.

Not can't, won't.

 

[JMO8778]

"Ramseys lawyered up from day one - and immediately adopted the perspective that the police were the enemy - NOT the killer/s of their daughter. In fact - they told the nation the day after they buried her that they "weren't angry" but just needed to "move on."
ly defined the motivation utmost in their minds - then - and forever more - to try and rectify their "good name." NOT - to find this killer.

nothing more than a cheap attempt to try and get investigators to lay off them.and apparently they told others ahead of time,whom they figured might be asked,to say the same thing.

as far as JR's idea of anxiously going on CNN so soon,I think it was a bad mistake for them;you can practically stamp the word GUILTY on her forehead here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GfVBVz8vulM

 

[Eagle1]

.........

As for the "sounds" heard in the night - why does everyone assume that any sounds heard during the night in that neighborhood HAD to have come from the Ramsey home and be related to the death of JonBenet?

It may very well be ("if" there were indeed sounds as Stanton described) that those sounds came from some innocuous source of a another neighbors home.........................

We KNOW all the factors you're citing, no use going over them over and over, which, though maybe a little strange, don't prove a darned thing, for instance their "lying" about Burke being awake. I don't feel that was even important. And most of it calls for just our emotional speculation. I want to know about the few definite realities we have to go on.

Many of us have admitted we might not/would not be too reliable in such circumstances, wouldn't necessarily remember whether Burke was awake or not.

There was a young peoples' "rave" party, whatever that is, two or three houses away, but I think Stanton would have known where the strange sound came from, and the fact that a murder happened in the Rs' house also lends credence to the strange sound in the middle of the night coming from there.

Another thing, another neighbor said someone was moving around with a low light like a flashlight in the Rs' house, and WHY WAS HE LOOKING, into their house at that hour after a usually-exhausting holiday?

Maybe he heard a sound too, but didn't mention it, assumed like Melody S. that maybe he'd dreamed it. The vent DUCT carried the sound across the street. This neighbor was in the opposite direction. Across the alley in back? So it would have been a fainter sound, probably, than what Stanton heard. None of the neighbors had seemed to really notice the rave party. Somebody who was there reported it lately, and naturally the name escapes me the minute I'm ready to type it. Colfax. J.T. Colfax. I think he worked for the morgue.

 

[K777angel]

.........

As for the "sounds" heard in the night - why does everyone assume that any sounds heard during the night in that neighborhood HAD to have come from the Ramsey home and be related to the death of JonBenet?

It may very well be ("if" there were indeed sounds as Stanton described) that those sounds came from some innocuous source of a another neighbors home.........................

We KNOW all the factors you're citing, no use going over them over and over, which, though maybe a little strange, don't prove a darned thing, for instance their "lying" about Burke being awake. I don't feel that was even important.

You're kidding right? NOT IMPORTANT? A detail like their 10 yr old son being AWAKE or not? Don't forget - they later admitted that indeed he WAS awake at that time but .... yeah, lied about it. WHY? Here's a clue: The same reason they shuttled him quickly out of the house and away from the police that morning. The same reason they did not RUSH to him and put him safely by their side right after they "discovered" his little sister DEAD in the basement. What did they do instead? Went to a friends home!
Only hours later did they find it in themselves to reunite with him.
The reason for all this? To DISTANCE him as best they could from prying questions and eyes and the crime.
He didn't even flinch when his mother told him his sister was DEAD! In Patsy's words in DOI she tells how she put her arm around him, told him his sister was dead and in heaven and what does he do? Cry - ask questions - am I safe? - are they gonna come get me now? - where are we going to stay? - I'm SCARED!!!!!!! No.... he nods his head and runs off to play!!!
Ten years old!
Cuz he KNEW what happened. IMO


There was a young peoples' "rave" party, whatever that is, two or three houses away, but I think Stanton would have known where the strange sound came from, and the fact that a murder happened in the Rs' house also lends credence to the strange sound in the middle of the night coming from there.

And it isn't conceivable to you that some drunk or stoned guest clunked into a trash can on the pavement making a scraping sound as it was shoved a bit? Again - we cannot "assume" that any sound that night heard by a neighbor came from the Ramsey home.
There were NO footprints in the snow or frost on their property that early morning. Because no one had walked across it.

~Angel~

QUOTE]

 

[Toltec]

Anyone remember the neighbors dog who barked at anyone and anything???

Not a peep heard from the dog...no intruder, no clanking of metal, nada.

The truth is Patsy's split second reaction to rage which resulted in the death of her daughter...and no justice for that beautiful little girl.

 

[JMO8778]

There was a young peoples' "rave" party, whatever that is, two or three houses away, but I think Stanton would have known where the strange sound came from, and the fact that a murder happened in the Rs' house also lends credence to the strange sound in the middle of the night coming from there.

as well as the fact the Stantons were hushed up somehow,and never interveiwed by BPD.

Another thing, another neighbor said someone was moving around with a low light like a flashlight in the Rs' house, and WHY WAS HE LOOKING, into their house at that hour after a usually-exhausting holiday?

Maybe he heard a sound too, but didn't mention it, assumed like Melody S. that maybe he'd dreamed it.

good point.

 

[Eagle1]

Re Burke's being asleep or awake being important or not, QUOTE:

...... The same reason they did not RUSH to him and put him safely by their side right after they "discovered" his little sister DEAD in the basement. What did they do instead? Went to a friends home! Only hours later did they find it in themselves to reunite with him. The reason for all this? To DISTANCE him as best they could from prying questions and eyes and the crime.

He didn't even flinch when his mother told him his sister was DEAD! In Patsy's words in DOI she tells how she put her arm around him, told him his sister was dead and in heaven and what does he do? Cry - ask questions - am I safe? - are they gonna come get me now? - where are we going to stay? - I'm SCARED!!!!!!! No.... he nods his head and runs off to play!!!
Ten years old! Cuz he KNEW what happened. ...............

And it isn't conceivable to you that some drunk or stoned guest clunked into a trash can on the pavement making a scraping sound as it was shoved a bit? Again - we cannot "assume" that any sound that night heard by a neighbor came from the Ramsey home. There were NO footprints in the snow or frost on their property that early morning. Because no one had walked across it......QUOTE]........

Starting with your last paragraph first and progressing backwards, there was a light dusting of FRESH snow. And some bicycle tracks, probably a paper boy, some time after any criminals who may have been there had left and it had snowed. Also I remember, faintly, something about one footprint or maybe two, on some concrete in the back, I think, where a roof overhang probably kept the new snow from falling on it. Anyone else remember?

Next-to-last paragraph, no, there were probably no trash cans out that night, or others would have been bumping them too, next morning when all the victim advocates, police cars, friends, etc. were arriving. Why such a need to invent a whole new story based upon nothing? If somebody had bumped into a trash can as Colfax was leaving the party, that's the very kind of thing he probably would have mentioned. I think he said something about the order in which they left, and that it wasn't a very wild party. Can't remember exactly a source, maybe ACandyRose.

Wish we could break the habit of just repeating the initial conclusions people jumped to before we knew very many of the facts at all, for instance stating so emphatically that "THEY LIED!!!!" as if that was proveable.
It's simply not, let's face it.

Sure the whole family acted rather odd, but if you knew some other families that a certain criminal mastermind has bedeviled like this, you'd also know that none of them have been able to do the slightest thing about it, even if some of their loved ones lost their lives. There are laws that you can't expose a spy, for instance, and both history and fiction have had lots of stories about spies either becoming madmen or having been that way already. It could be like "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" This reasoning might also work if he's into the mafia, organized crime, and all sorts of other possibilities. I didn't watch much of the TV shows about that several years ago, too creepy, but you'd fear for your life and all your other loved ones' lives, and would know you couldn't bring JonBenet back.

Notice I'm not, like the ones inventing your theory, claiming this has to be definitely how it all came down!

We've been at this long enough to have at least learned nobody knows how it was exactly, or whether the R's and Burke are lying, or mixed up because of the seriousness of the situation. Sure they all acted odd, but we could come up with all sorts of possibilities why they would "cover" for a dragon instead of trying to slay him if the gov't wouldn't or couldn't.

Secular tabloids frequently try to sell papers by going creative about a character from hell predicted by the Bible and/or Nostradamus, and like that. They never use direct quotes, just seem to make it up, but I predict such a person really will be revealed when the time comes, after 8 presidents, probably not including Lyndon Johnson, after JFK.
One was to be wounded unto death but recover, and that could be Reagan. This is just a theory until and unless it happens, just something to hope for as our solution. He'll have been causing the wars and economic problems, and after he's caught, earth will begin to "sing".

Remember, I just said it's something to hope for. A solution. In prophecy he gets attention by persecuting a woman he's simply jealous of,
and I may know someone who hates beauty queens. I'm sure he could have killed John by now, but probably wants him to watch him suffer. If I can't yet prove he's here, neither can you prove he's not. We just have to wait and see.

Compared to the few concrete facts we know, the question of whether or not Burke was asleep isn't important, because it simply doesn't prove anything at all. The odd behavior could just as well prove there was a powerful intruder(s), though nobody's claiming it definitely does.