Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[BlueCrab]

Solace,

Whether or not Ed Gelb has an authentic doctorate's degree is irrelevant as to whether or not he knows what he's doing when it comes to administering polygraph exams in the real world. Gelb is past president of the American Polygraph Association and has conducted thousands of examinations.

The 10 DNA markers found in the crotch of JonBenet's panties are a fact. Please learn to live with it. Creating highly imaginative alternate possible sources of the DNA other than what its most obvious source is does not make the markers go away.

The government's six QDE's who examined the handwriting of 73 suspects eliminated John as the possible writer of the RN and came close to eliminating Patsy. One of the six examiners, Richard Dusak of the US Secret Service, totally eliminated Patsy as the possible writer.

BlueCrab

 

[icedtea4me]

iced tea,

I honestly can't see how the RN, whether real or fake, can be perceived to be anything other than a RN.

BlueCrab

It could be seen as a confession from the subconscious mind.


-Tea

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Whether or not Ed Gelb has an authentic doctorate's degree is irrelevant (THAT STATEMENT IS ABSURD BLUE CRAB) as to whether or not he knows what he's doing when it comes to administering polygraph exams in the real world. Gelb is past president of the American Polygraph Association and has conducted thousands of examinations. Really? I guess it does not impress you that he is a liar. That does not impress you because it fits with your scenario. Why don't you print that several tests taken by Patsy were INCONCLUSIVE and in another words, she failed. And also the fact that she refused to take a urine test for one polygrapher. So that would mean Patsy was stoned when she took Dr. Gelb's test. That doesn't bother him because he has a phony diploma anyway.

The 10 DNA markers found in the crotch of JonBenet's panties are a fact. Please learn to live with it. Creating highly imaginative alternate possible sources of the DNA other than what its most obvious source is does not make the markers go away. The very same scientist who conducted the DNA testing in the Denver Police Department’s DNA lab contradicts the above statement. The following is from the scientist who conducted the tests, Get real Blue Crab. Your argument is bordering on ludicrous.

Rocky Mountain News, May 18, 2004, Charlie Brennan
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...2893675,00.html
text version backup

A claim by John Ramsey's campaign that investigators have the DNA of his daughter's killer goes too far, according to the forensic scientist who developed the genetic profile from that sample.

"That's one of the possibilities, but that's not the only possibility," said the scientist, who asked that his name not be used. It's impossible to say whether the DNA belonged to an adult or a child, according to the scientist.

"You have DNA that's male, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the killer's," the scientist said. "It could be innocent. It could be from the (undergarment's) manufacturer. It could be a lot of things. Of c

The government's six QDE's who examined the handwriting of 73 suspects eliminated John as the possible writer of the RN and came close to eliminating Patsy. What is that BlueCrab, are you running for Congress. Sounds like something our very own President Clinton might say if his back were against the wall. It is ridiculous. THEY DID NOT ELIMINATE HER. Coming close is not going to make it. One of the six examiners, Richard Dusak of the US Secret Service, totally eliminated Patsy as the possible writer. So what, and I have six that say she did it.

BlueCrab

My replies are above. Do not try to shove that "deal with it" rhetoric down my throat. This is not my first time at the rodeo, my friend. The DNA is nothing, I have experts on the handwriting also and as SD's post says a few weeks back, take a look for yourself. Most will be shocked at the similarites. And as far as Dr. Gelb goes, he is a liar about his credentials and so when someone lies about their credentials, they are suspect. The Ramseys used someone who is a known fraud about his credentials. Please, if this is the best you can come up with, just because 48 hours had him on, does not make it so.

AND I QUOTE:

Gelb received his diploma from "La Salle". LaSalle's office was investigated and raided by the FBI, and Thomas Kirk, LaSalle's owner and founder, was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to five years in federal prison. Kirk earned millions of dollars from people looking to obtain fraudulent college degrees at a discount rate with little or no actual course work required."
THIS IS THE PERSON WHO CONDUCTED THE POLY TESTS AND THAT BLUE CRAB WOULD LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE IS CREDIBLE. I AM LAUGHING HERE.

You say "Whether or not Ed Gelb has an authentic doctorate's degree is irrelevant".

Well in that case, I think I will go home and order up one of those "fake" doctorate degrees, I feel like becoming a polygrapher.

BlueCrab, I am starting to worry about you.

 

[BlueCrab]

Solace,

Please cease inserting misinformation into the case and the flaming of posters who don't agree with you. Thank you.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Please cease inserting misinformation into the case and the flaming of posters who don't agree with you. Thank you.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab, Nothing and I mean nothing is misinformation. Please point it out for me. I can "deal" with your posts if you post the "truth". What you are posting is false as far as the DNA goes. If it were true, which it isn't, there would be no forums regarding the death of JonBenet, for EVERYONE would know that the DNA is from an "intruder". BUT IT IS MOST LIKELY NOT, and you know it. Ten markers that are OLDER than JonBenets markers ARE EVIDENCE OF DNA THAT WAS THERE PRIOR TO THE MURDER; namely, a worker who packaged the underwear. So, I would suggest you deal with it.

Point Two: Saying that Dr. Gelb does not need a valid diploma to be able to give a polygraph is just ABSURD. If that were true, we could all walk around as "scientists". His history is suspect and YOU KNOW THAT ALSO.

Point Three: Handwriting Analysis - For every person you post that says Patsy is NOT the writer, I can do the same. Whether you like it or not, Steve Thomas says 73 people were ELIMINATED. Chet Ubowski says Patsy CANNOT be eliminated.

Point Three: There is OVERWHELMING evidence that Mrs. Ramseys is the perpetrator of this crime.

All of the above BlueCrab, I suggest you learn to "DEAL WITH".

Refute the above with facts and I will gladly defer to you. I do not think you can. And I also think that posters like Credence DESERVE to have the truth and decide for themselves. You believe in the truth don't you?

We don't know for sure who did this crime, but we do have OVERWHELMING CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE pointing to Patsy. Any place else in America and this woman would have been convicted.

 

[BlueCrab]

Solace,

You ask what misinformation it is that you are spreading. Well, let's just take the handwriting experts as an example. You said there are six experts who are 100% sure that Patsy wrote the RN. That's not so.

In the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit the plaintiff's attorney, Darnay Hoffman, said he had five QDE's lined up to testify that Patsy Ramsey likely wrote the RN. The whole case would be based on the testimony of the five experts.

After one expert voluntarily dropped out, there was only one of Hoffman's experts who said he was 100% sure that Patsy wrote the RN, and that was Gideon Epstein. So the Ramsey's attorney, Lin Wood, deposed Mr. Epstein. During the deposition Epstein was discredited to the point that Hoffman withdrew him in the middle of the deposition with Hoffman's promise, under oath, that he would never again allow Epstein to re-enter the case.

The qualifications of Hoffman's other examiners were then successfully challenged, and the court dismissed the case.

Bluecrab

 

[Solace]

Solace,

You ask what misinformation it is that you are spreading. Well, let's just take the handwriting experts as an example. You said there are six experts who are 100% sure that Patsy wrote the RN. That's not so.

In the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit the plaintiff's attorney, Darnay Hoffman, said he had five QDE's lined up to testify that Patsy Ramsey likely wrote the RN. The whole case would be based on the testimony of the five experts.

After one expert voluntarily dropped out, there was only one of Hoffman's experts who said he was 100% sure that Patsy wrote the RN, and that was Gideon Epstein. So the Ramsey's attorney, Lin Wood, deposed Mr. Epstein. During the deposition Epstein was discredited to the point that Hoffman withdrew him in the middle of the deposition with Hoffman's promise, under oath, that he would never again allow Epstein to re-enter the case.

The qualifications of Hoffman's other examiners were then successfully challenged, and the court dismissed the case.

Bluecrab

I would like to suggest that anyone who is interested in the reality of what Blue Crab has just posted, please go to ACandyRose.com and scroll down and read Gideon Epstein's deposition and you will see JUST HOW WELL LIN WOOD COMES ACROSS. The reality is that Lin Wood does not quite do what Blue Crab suggests. And when you get to the end of the deposition, you will see that Lin Wood is once again "blowing smoke" around and around and that C. Wong an analyst who believed 100% that Patsy wrote the note is not quite discredited as Blue Crab suggests and neither is Gideon Epstein.


So now qualifications are important to you. You say Lin Wood discredited Wong and Epstein. Show me where he does this in that deposition. I want to see it now.

But Dr. Gelb's qualifications are not important to you. Interesting how you pick and choose. And please do not use Lin Wood in an argument, because he serves no purpose but to embarrass you. The man is not above threatening anyone as Wendy Murphy can attest to.

Chet Ubowski's qualifications are of the highest quality. He says she is not ruled out. What Lin Wood does under questioning is something that you might want to print all the questions he used when examinging someone and I can guarantee we would all come away with a different opinion of Mr. Wood.

Care to address anything else BlueCrab?

Care to address the DNA again. I think not.
Care to address Dr. Gelb again. I think not.

The samples of Patsy's handwriting have been examined by six analysts and they agree she wrote it. But anyone can check it out, SD posted it a while back. She wrote this note BlueCrab. And she did a lot more.

You need someone better than Lin Wood to support your argument. He is not some one I would look up to in any shape or form.

You know BlueCrab, when someone disagrees with you and can back it up, it should be acknowledged. I have seen you act this way before with the Stun Gun Theory even though Jayelles proves it in BLACK AND WHITE over and over. You still cling to your theory. It really is childish and serves no purpose.

A child did not kill JonBenet that night and it was not a great white or the boogie man. It was Patsy Ramsey. Lawd Almighty, you are a piece of work. Quoting Lin Wood, a sure sign of desperation.

 

[Jay78]

I did not begin this thread in order to provide an arena for an arguement. It was merely to hear people's thoughts about Nedra. I was struggling to understand how a loving grandmother(if she was) could know the identity of her sweet, innocent granddaughter's killer and live with the fact...

 

[JMO8778]

Jay,my guess is b/c she knew it was her own daughter,she loved them both,and had already lost one,and didn't want to lose the other,esp. seeing as she may not live too much longer w/ the cancer dx anyway.Or maybe she was just in complete denial.

 

[Jay78]

Jay,my guess is b/c she knew it was her own daughter,she loved them both,and had already lost one,and didn't want to lose the other,esp. seeing as she may not live too much longer w/ the cancer dx anyway.Or maybe she was just in complete denial.

this is what i was thinking. However, it still seems difficult for me to understand. Honestly, if one of my family members had killed an innocent child, i think would crack and expose the truth. i simply couldn't live with that knowledge. Nedra did seem like an odd character however.

 

[Solace]

I did not begin this thread in order to provide an arena for an arguement. It was merely to hear people's thoughts about Nedra. I was struggling to understand how a loving grandmother(if she was) could know the identity of her sweet, innocent granddaughter's killer and live with the fact...

Jay, no argument here. Facts are facts and I will leave it at that.

 

[BlueCrab]

Jay, no argument here. Facts are facts and I will leave it at that.

Solace,

Sorry, but opinions are not facts, and flaming those who disagree with you will not turn your opinions into facts.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Sorry, but opinions are not facts, and flaming those who disagree with you will not turn your opinions into facts.

BlueCrab

Good Morning Blue Crab:

We could debate this forever, but I would much rather debate the truth. The fact is two of the handwriting analysts that you echo WERE PAID by the Ramseys. The fact is Dr. Gelb (if you can call him that) found no need to give a urine test to either John or Patsy. Chief Beckner called the results worthless. The DNA you speak of does not in any way suggest an intruder, For it is older than JonBenets and was there way before the night of the murder.

I think you know all this and have argued this point before with several others. Your saying that Dr. Gelb does not need the proper credentials is beyond ludicrous. The fact is the Ramseys failed their test with the first polygrapher. Yes, she did. They called it inconclusive. She failed. The fact is 73 people were eliminated and Patsy could not be eliminated. John was eliminated, Berke was considered most likely not the writer (contrary to what you want to post) and Patsy COULD NOT be eliminated by Chet Ubowski of the CBI.

Because you want it to be so, will not make it so BlueCrab. You are on the wrong track with this theory. No child did this crime, no child wrote this note. This was an act of rage followed by staging to self-preserve. But it was interesting.

 

[rashomon]

Nuisanceposter,

IMO John and Patsy are both engulfed up to their chins in the staging of this crime.

Absolutely. The fiber evidence implicates both Patsy and John as being involved in the staging of the crime scene.
The ransom note implicates Patsy. It seems that Patsy was running this show, with John helping her in the cover-up.

I think John and Patsy were in the basement hours before they called 911 at 5:52 AM. But neither of them killed JonBenet. There's no evidence against them and they have exculpatory evidence in their favor.

They sure were in the basement when staging the scene (see the fiber evidence), but to the best of my memory, I can't think of any exculpatory evidence in their favor. Quite the contrary.

The fibers were microscopic and are the result of secondary transfers.

The bolded part is a pure allegation presented as fact.

IOW the fibers are floating in the air; they will settle anywhere; and they can only be seen under a microscope. For example, there were hundreds of other microscopic fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape besides the 4 fibers from Patsy's jacket. And microscopic fibers can settle on nylon cord and work their way into the twistings simply by gravity.

The fibers sourced to John and Patsy were found in locations associated with JB's death. This is very incriminating evidence.

However, there are two items of fiber evidence that bother me; and they are: (1) the black fibers from John's shirt found in the crotch area of JonBenet's panties. It could mean several different things, including John still being dressed in the clothes he wore at the White's dinner party as he was engaged in the wee hours of the morning with Patsy in staging the crime to look like a kidnap murder instead of a sex murder; and (2) Patsy also still dressed in the clothes she wore to the party.

I think you got that right, BC.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

The fibers sourced to John and Patsy were found in locations associated with JB's death. This is very incriminating evidence.

I couldn't agree more, Rashomon. Those are some very specific places for fibers to end up, and I don't believe random innocent fiber transfer can account for those fibers being in those specific locations. Maybe one of them, fine...but in all those places - in the paint tray, on the tape, in the underwear, and TIED INTO THE KNOT??? No. The fibers found in those locations place Patsy at the very least in the crime scene. I guarantee you if Burke's fibers had been found in those locations, BC wouldn't pass them off as innocent fiber transfer.

 

[Solace]

I couldn't agree more, Rashomon. Those are some very specific places for fibers to end up, and I don't believe random innocent fiber transfer can account for those fibers being in those specific locations. Maybe one of them, fine...but in all those places - in the paint tray, on the tape, in the underwear, and TIED INTO THE KNOT??? No. The fibers found in those locations place Patsy at the very least in the crime scene. I guarantee you if Burke's fibers had been found in those locations, BC wouldn't pass them off as innocent fiber transfer.

And they would have had her if John had not removed the tape.

 

[UKGuy]

The fibers sourced to John and Patsy were found in locations associated with JB's death. This is very incriminating evidence.
.

rashomon,

Just a little caveat, but imo, an important one. The fibers sourced to John and Patsy were found in locations on or near JonBenet's corpse!

The actual location associated with JonBenet's death is likely elsewhere in the house.


.

 

[JMO8778]

,

Just a little caveat, but imo, an important one. The fibers sourced to John and Patsy were found in locations on or near JonBenet's corpse!

indeed.

The actual location associated with JonBenet's death is likely elsewhere in the house.


.

I think so,too.What I find odd is that,in the autopsy pics,you can see that even though tape was applied to her lips,her face wasn't wiped off,even though we know the rest of her body was,(due to the fiber evidence).
Any opinion on that? Why not take the time to wipe her off b/f applying the tape? in staging the crime,why wouldn't this matter?(aside from,other than the fact she wasn't fighting against the tape anyway,from being unconcious).

 

[Dru]

indeed.
I think so,too.What I find odd is that,in the autopsy pics,you can see that even though tape was applied to her lips,her face wasn't wiped off,even though we know the rest of her body was,(due to the fiber evidence).
Any opinion on that? Why not take the time to wipe her off b/f applying the tape? in staging the crime,why wouldn't this matter?(aside from,other than the fact she wasn't fighting against the tape anyway,from being unconcious).

JMO8778, this is one of the things that 'works' with my theory, that JR alone was responsible for the wiping down of JBR, and PR didn't even know he'd done it. Thus, when she becomes involved in the staging at a later point, it's not considered important to 'clean up' the rest of her body. IMHO, of course.

 

[K777angel]

Glad the "fiber evidence" was brought up. Allows me to point out the glaringly obvious fact to all the "intruder did it" theorisists that your elusive suspect in fact does not exist. If he/she did - we would find THEIR fiber evidence (and much more from them) all over that crime scene and home.
But ... it is not there. Absent. Non-existent.

Only the Ramsey's evidence is there. Plethoras of it.

It's important to remember when evaluating a crime scene that you need to look at not only what IS there - but also what SHOULD be there for a particular theory - yet isn't.

Then you move on. Either remaining inside that "circle" of immediate family and friends - or, depending on what the evidence suggests - move out further in that circle widening it.

Process of elimination.

Totality of the evidence and circumstances surrounding the crime and victim.

It's really not that difficult in this case.