IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #77

[Bird of Paradise]

When does the eye witness physically eyeball and identify the suspect?
(Note : in the uk it would not even be allowed to name someone let alone put their photos in the media connecting them to a murder unless they had been charged with it so even that part is alien to me)

Shires, since you also asked me this question, I'm going to reply here.

I am not replying in any official capacity so my answer may not be 100% but I think we must differenciate your use of the word Person Of Interest (POI) and Suspect.

From all I have read and my experience following cases, pictures are shown when LE believes they have a Suspect.

I'm sure there are many articles on the web to explain the procedure, but this is one I already had bookmarked from long ago.

Hope it's useful.

https://www.nap.edu/read/18891/chapter/4

 

[TeaTime]

Hmmm. The video of the drive to the trail entrance is interesting indeed. One would not likely stumble upon such a place but would have to know that it exists, its location and which of the winding rural roads to use to get there. I suppose one could locate it on a phone GPS?

 

[Shiressleuth]

I must not have paid attention to something which does happen. BG was captured on video at 2:30? The source was the Dr Phil show???

The snapchat of Abby on the bridge was taken at 2:07. That places the girls on the bridge for an half hour and poses even more unanswered questions. After watching GH's videos, now I'm confused. It also alters the theory the girls were being followed. ???

I don't get what you're asking. Do you want a source for BG 2.30 time on the bridge or what exactly?

 

[TeaTime]

Okay everyone. We do not know what time the witness saw BG leaving the area and LE hasn't told us so we can not know how many minutes it was between the photo of him on the bridge and the witness seeing him. Everyone is assuming that MP's statement is accurate because he said it and ISP didn't correct it. However, I doubt ISP would release such a detail so Carter would not correct MP anyway.

We were told by MP that DG called at 3:11 and got no answer. The unanswered call does not tell us anything other than the call was not answered. Everything else is assumptions.

 

[newredtabby]

Understood. I'd lean more in that direction if LE hadn't been on the show when the very short timeline was discussed. moo

Yes, although the ISP Superintendent also didn't speak up to confirm the timeline. He, could have said, "Yes, this crime was over and done very quickly, did anyone see a car or truck speeding out of Delphi that day? Did anyone see a man running down a back road near the trails?" Saying nothing, confirms nothing IMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[newredtabby]

Okay everyone. We do not know what time the witness saw BG leaving the area and LE hasn't told us so we can not know how many minutes it was between the photo of him on the bridge and the witness seeing him. Everyone is assuming that MP's statement is accurate because he said it and ISP didn't correct it. However, I doubt ISP would release such a detail so Carter would not correct MP anyway.

We were told by MP that DG called at 3:11 and got no answer. The unanswered call does not tell us anything other than the call was not answered. Everything else is assumptions.

I think this hits the nail on the head. We still have no facts about how long this crime lasted, beyond the bodies being located the next day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[MistyWaters]

The Dad knew to pick up the girls BEFORE THEY WERE ALLOWED TO GO. The girls had to have a ride to and from the trails before they were allowed to go that day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, BP stated the ride to and from was arranged before the girls were allowed to go. But I also recall her referring to the girls going to the bridge, not just the trail in general. She said Libby's dad was going out of town to a specific place (don't recall the name) on her behalf regarding her appraisal business and it was preplanned he'd pick up the girls when he got back. Libby's sister dropped the girls off, then she stopped by at friends before it was time for her to go to work. (Paraphrasing)

 

[Shiressleuth]

Shires, since you also asked me this question, I'm going to reply here.

I am not replying in any official capacity so my answer may not be 100% but I think we must differenciate your use of the word Person Of Interest (POI) and Suspect.

From all I have read and my experience following cases, pictures are shown when LE believes they have a Suspect.

I'm sure there are many articles on the web to explain the procedure, but this is one I already had bookmarked from long ago.

Hope it's useful.

https://www.nap.edu/read/18891/chapter/4

I know the difference between a poi and a suspect. What I want to know is why POI pictures get plastered over the media where witnesses can see them and be prejudiced by them. Therefore I am asking if they would have I.d. him when the mug was withheld. Was that the purpose of withholding it? If the eye witnesses have not I.d. him from a fair standpoint, that will prejudice a trial so I am asking, when do they do it? They did this with RL too. Is that your system? I will read the article but am on websleuths to discuss with other posters and learn that way. If noone wants to specifically answer just scroll n roll - I'm used to that.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I think this hits the nail on the head. We still have no facts about how long this crime lasted, beyond the bodies being located the next day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No but we can speculate. Or we just read the facts and say nowt.

 

[Jax49]

IMHO, if there was evidence the killer returned to the crime scene after he was seen leaving LE would have mentioned it on the show. It would have been the time to ask "did you see anyone the morning of the 14?".

moo, of course

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, although the ISP Superintendent also didn't speak up to confirm the timeline. He, could have said, "Yes, this crime was over and done very quickly, did anyone see a car or truck speeding out of Delphi that day? Did anyone see a man running down a back road near the trails?" Saying nothing, confirms nothing IMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree, I didn't get the impression it was confirmation of anything other than the unanswered phone calls roused the concern of Libby's dad. We were never told the time the witnesses observed BG leaving and that must be for a reason, but I can't think of why at the moment.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Okay everyone. We do not know what time the witness saw BG leaving the area and LE hasn't told us so we can not know how many minutes it was between the photo of him on the bridge and the witness seeing him. Everyone is assuming that MP's statement is accurate because he said it and ISP didn't correct it. However, I doubt ISP would release such a detail so Carter would not correct MP anyway.

We were told by MP that DG called at 3:11 and got no answer. The unanswered call does not tell us anything other than the call was not answered. Everything else is assumptions.

So Dr. Phil can speculate 41 mins on national tv but we cannot? I don't think so.
I also have a vague recollection the video/ audio of the whole thing was 40 or so minutes but that will have to be :moo: because I will never find a link. (but will post one if I do.)

 

[mtnlites]

Hmmm. The video of the drive to the trail entrance is interesting indeed. One would not likely stumble upon such a place but would have to know that it exists, its location and which of the winding rural roads to use to get there. I suppose one could locate it on a phone GPS?

It is a place that it difficult to just stumble upon. For one thing, there are quite a few little "off roads" and driveways around it and it's not like a park-park where you find trailheads, big parking lots, etc. I've posted before about it, about how there are people in Delphi who know of its existence but couldn't exactly tell you how to get there. The GPS would definitely get you to the general area but I am not sure how well it would get you to the parking area. I would be more inclined to trust it to get you to the cemetery over the park. When we go up there, we have to keep written directions in the car. No way could I tell anyone how to get there. It's one of those, "Well, you go down the road a bit and when you see this tree..." kind of thing. (It's actually a little easier than that, but that's the way I feel.)

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

[FONT=&quot]Just the Facts[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
Abby and Libby had February 10th and 13th off school for unused snow days. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Abby was at Libby’s house on February 13 and the girls asked to go to the trails so they could take pictures. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Libby’s sister dropped them off about 1:30 pm. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The girls made it to the bridge and took at least one picture of and one picture on it. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The picture of Abby on the bridge was uploaded to Snapchat with a time stamp of 2:07 pm. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]According to posts referring to the recent Dr. Phil show, Libby’s dad was supposed to pick them up around 3:00 pm. He tried calling at 3:11 pm, then went to look on the trails at 3:14 pm. Not finding them, he notified other family members who assisted in the search. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]According to the timeline presented on the Dr. Phil show and the time of 2:30 on the billboards (see below) there were approximately 44 minutes of time between the video of the POI on the bridge and when a witness allegedly saw BG leaving the trails. This does not confirm BG did not return to the area later. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]LE was notified at 5:15 pm and a large-scale search began at 6:00 pm. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Libby’s sister stated on the Dr. Phil show that the searchers yelled up asking what color shoes the girls had. She responded and they yelled back they had found the girls. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Abby and Libby were found at approximately 12:15 pm on February 14 in a wooded area on RL’s property near the MHB. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The girls had open caskets at their funeral visitations.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Link: http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_4b1989d8-f7db-11e6-9f4b-ff5056c72de5.html[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]LE called Libby a hero for having the presence of mind to turn on her phone’s video recording. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Images of a POI we refer to as “Bridge Guy” (BG) were captured on that recording and made into still shots by LE.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Audio of the POI was captured also with the words “down the hill” released to the media. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]LE placed billboards in 46 of the 50 states (Alaska, Hawaii, Maine and Vermont do not allow billboards). At least one of the billboard layouts alludes to the POI being last seen at 2:30 pm, likely the time the video images of him were shot. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Link to photo of billboard: http://wane.com/2017/02/23/reward-up-to-50000-for-information-in-deaths-of-2-indiana-girls/[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]RL, owner of the property where the girls were found, admitted to driving on February 13 to the Carrol County Transfer Station (recycling center), reported by the media as “hours before the girls were dropped off”. Link: http://fox59.com/2017/04/03/man-adm...hi-teens-were-found-murdered-on-his-property/[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]RL also said later that day he was at a tropical fish store in Lafayette, returning from Lafayette around 6:30 pm. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]A compiled sketch of the suspect was released in mid-July 2017. The accompanying description was “The suspect has been described as 5’6″-5’10” tall and weighing between 180-220 pounds with reddish brown hair.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Link: http://wishtv.com/2017/07/17/isp-releases-sketch-of-suspect-in-delphi-double-murder-case/


[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Information from the August 2017 interview with Officer Holman (quoted and paraphrased from Spellbound’s transcription):[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*The sketch is a compilation from several people who say they saw the person that LE identified “through the video that was obtained off Liberty's phone”. “More than a few” people saw the POI on the trails that day. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*He cautioned the public “because this person's probably gonna do this again and I'd hate for that to happen to you or your loved ones. That's the message that I want to get out to the public, that if you do know, for sure you need to let us know so we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter, or your mother, or sister, or anybody. Could be brother or father as well, so...”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*He mentioned traveling over steep terrain in a wooded area to get to where the girls were found. He said they crossed the creek. You wouldn’t go this way just taking a walk.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*They found DNA. “I think in every crime scene...you're gonna have the victim's DNA, you're gonna probably have victim's family's DNA. You know touch DNA is very powerful, so if I touch your shirt today...that DNA could still be there for weeks, if not months. So we're still working on identifying whose all DNA we have there.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*More audio was found on Libby’s phone. “At this time it doesn't appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls and things like that. So, we've only released a portion of it. There's some others that we think could help us, but again, protecting the integrity of the investigation is the key here.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*Libby’s phone was found “in the general area”. (Near the CS.)[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*”They went out there to take pictures on the bridge...but it appeared that...Liberty had enough sense to realize that something wasn't right and she started that video because she felt uncomfortable, both girls were uncomfortable...But they were out there taking pictures with the phone and videos.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Link to long version of the interview (scroll to the bottom of the page): http://fox59.com/2017/08/14/lead-de...ave-more-audio-from-teens-phone-dna-evidence/[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Link to transcription of Officer Holman’s 27 minute interview by our own Spellbound in Thread #65. (WS links can change depending upon how many posts per page you choose in your settings. If you land on the wrong page it’s posts #186 and 244): http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Liberty-German-14-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-65/page4[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]If anyone can think of anything else we KNOW as FACT that isn’t speculation or theory, please bring it to my attention and I will edit and repost as necessary.
I’m still looking for a link to the news video about Libby taking the video of BG with her selfie camera. [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Shiressleuth]

I suppose the same question could be asked about any one of the hundred of other POIs. Too much time has already passed for a conviction based only on an eye witness ID imo.

The poster I answered was asking about DN though.

 

[Lana Crowe]

hi im going to just jump in here cuz im not sure how to do this. has any of the libbys dads associates been questioned or looked in to??

 

[Shiressleuth]

Why haven't many others, according to LE? Who knows? Maybe they don't have the perp's DNA after all.

Maybe. So how will they proceed?

 

[kstephens98]

So I wonder why he hasnt been excluded yet?

IMO they have not and will not publicly exclude ANYBODY! For whatever reason, they're just not going to.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[FrostedGlass]

I really hoped we might get something new from the Dr. Phil show but it's just like it always is. We are left with more questions than answers. This just goes beyond frustration.

The only thing I got out of this was confirmation of some of the info Grayhuze shared with us from his conversation with BP.

 

[asyousay]

I think LE have tried to bluff in some respects by saying they have more evidence than they did and it’s not worked.

Is the perp really meant to believe they are “waiting” on DNA 10 months after two children were killed?