Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[Canterbury Tales]

I don't agree with the family contacting the Mayor to influence police. I don't think these adult children should be given any special privilege on the basis that their father was a successful businessman.

LMAO! You don't agree with the family contacting the Mayor to influence police because their father was a "successful businessman." First of all, BS was not just a "successful businessman." He was a billionaire four times over! That's way beyond the territory of a successful businessman. Secondly, whether you like it or not, wealthy people do get special treatment because, without wealthy people, many other people wouldn't have jobs and that includes politicians, police, you name it. Where would politicians be without donations from extremely wealthy people? How many corrupt policemen exist who take bribes from wealthy people?

And as many posters have been trying to explain to you, the only thing that has been confirmed publicly is the cause of death. Everything else allegedly from police sources is speculation and yet you keep talking about these things (i.e. Honey was killed first, the police are looking into this "only" as a murder-suicide, etc.) as if they are facts. They aren't!

 

[Tortoise]

I guess what I was getting at is that whoever did it targeted Honey not just Barry. Who would that be? It could be Barry in a fit or rage or depressed funk. It could be someone who wants to punish Barry by killing his wife and then killing him. I don't think it is someone who just needs Barry out of the picture for some reason related to his business or otherwise. If that were the case, it would have been much easier to wait for Honey to be gone to Florida.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

If it was double murder, I can only think that if they took just Barry out, staged as a suicide, or just murdered, while Honey was in Florida, Barry knew who wanted him silenced and so did Honey. She would instinctively automatically know who did it and would not have been quiet about it. It's probably not the kind of conversation Barry would have had with many people because people tend to think talk like that is paranoia, but his wife would know. She was politically aware and active.

If it was double murder, this was not the kind of killer or brute you may be able to find and pay to do your dirty work from a gang of hardened street criminals. To get into the house undetected, scope the layout, know the Sherman's movements, be meticulous about not leaving behind a trace, it was top level, secret services. IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

You missed the point. I asked what evidence would convince you it was a murder suicide.

I didn't miss the point at all. Irrefutable evidence that Barry murdered Honey and it wasn't someone else, would convince me.

I can't say exactly what evidence that would be without knowing what happened to Honey.

 

[otto]

I don't think it would be just police, it would likely have included a detailed medical examination of the bodies before they were moved. I think medical forensics are the one thing it's impossible to fake or stage. Bodies show the signs of what happened to them before, during and after death.

For example, if someone was already dead when they were placed in a position, I believe that's apparent to a medical examiner, who would also recognise the signs that someone had died in the position they were found in.

So, assuming the medical examiner says one person appears to have died there, though the other probably did not. Then police might try to envision how it would be possible to murder someone in the circumstance where they were found. It wasn't as though they were caught by surprise, and quickly overpowered, as typically happens, using a gun, knife or strangulation.

This was a fiddly process: forcing the person downstairs, seated in a particular location, waiting while things are attached. Are there signs of a life or death struggle on the body, clothes, or scene? Were they sufficiently restrained to have been powerless and unable to free themselves of their restraints, ie hands and feet?

I could go on, but my key point is that it's the forensics of the scene, not theories, that drive the initial direction of the investigation.

You are quite right. At the time of death, blood begins to pool at the lowest points on the body. If the body is moved to a different posture several hours later, evidence of that original blood pooling remains and indicates that the body was moved at some time after death. This could be one of the factors that led sources close to the case to conclude that she was killed elsewhere.

 

[dotr]

No signs of forced entry doesn't necessarily mean no intruder.

It just means there were no obvious signs someone broke in. They could have been let in under the guise of selling chocolate covered almonds.

rbbm.
Well the best way to get into a house without breaking in is to have the door opened to you, not saying this happened, but it or a scam something like it, could have- especially at the start of holiday season.
The scam has worked thus far in Montreal and in Ottawa...
fwiw, imo, speculation.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...eniors-in-their-homes&p=13838167#post13838167
Montreal police seek man drugging and robbing seniors in their homes

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...in-their-homes

Police say the suspect offered the victims food or drinks that contained a substance that made them lose consciousness before taking valuables from the homes



The man approached the women at their homes and was able to gain their trust with his seemingly “kind and charming,” manner, police spokeswoman Caroline Chevrefils said.

Once inside the homes, he would offer the victims food or drinks that contained a substance that made them lose consciousness, she said.
“He offers them food or drinks, for example chocolate or wine, which contains an unknown substance,” she said in a phone interview.
“The suspect asks them to eat or drink the gift and then waits for it to take effect, and that effect is a loss of consciousness.”

 

[Tortoise]

Why do you suppose LE said there was no intruder before they got any security info?

no sign of forced entry is my guess. bit irresponsible really when there are so many ways someone could get in without leaving evidence.

stolen key
copied key
stolen access code
garage opener
someone forcing you to unlock the door
finding an unlocked door
unlocked window or skylight
locksmith knowledge
a domestic worker being complicit

any more?

 

[cluciano63]

What if doors had chains on, on the inside?

 

[Tortoise]

What if doors had chains on, on the inside?

the real estate agent was able to get in.

 

[Sphinx]

the real estate agent was able to get in.

Does anyone know if the Real Estate agent had a key, access to a key pad, or if the housekeeper was there, and let him in on Fri. a.m. ?

 

[JDG]

Does anyone know if the Real Estate agent had a key, access to a key pad, or if the housekeeper was there, and let him in on Fri. a.m. ?

I read that the realtor lady had a key and found them.

 

[otto]

LMAO! You don't agree with the family contacting the Mayor to influence police because their father was a "successful businessman." First of all, BS was not just a "successful businessman." He was a billionaire four times over! That's way beyond the territory of a successful businessman. Secondly, whether you like it or not, wealthy people do get special treatment because, without wealthy people, many other people wouldn't have jobs and that includes politicians, police, you name it. Where would politicians be without donations from extremely wealthy people? How many corrupt policemen exist who take bribes from wealthy people?

And as many posters have been trying to explain to you, the only thing that has been confirmed publicly is the cause of death. Everything else allegedly from police sources is speculation and yet you keep talking about these things (i.e. Honey was killed first, the police are looking into this "only" as a murder-suicide, etc.) as if they are facts. They aren't!

Named police sources have said that the cause of death is ligature strangulation, that the deaths are being investigated as a murder suicide, and that there are no outstanding suspects. Unnamed police sources have provided additional information regarding where the bodies were found, the posture of the bodies, that a belt was used as a weapon, when the bodies were found, who found the bodies, that there was no note, that the last email was sent at 8:30PM on Wednesday evening, that the couple was planning to vacation in Florida, that they were departing on different days, and so on. We can figure out for ourselves that the deaths occurred on Wednesday evening and Thursday morning. I don't need anyone to explain to me that information published in the media and attributed to police sources is mere "speculation" for the simple reason that I do trust news outlets such as CBC and other Canadian news outlets. That is, I do believe that they were planning to vacation in Florida even though this information was not provided by a named police source. Please do not feel any further need to "explain" to me that referenced police "sources" should not be trusted.

The debate about whether news is "fake" seems better suited for another discussion. If the objective in contributing to this discussion is merely to announce that everything published in the news cannot be believed, therefore we should believe something that has not been published (e.g.: intruder murder scenario), that, in my humble opinion, belongs to the discussion about "fake" news. That is, questioning whether information attributed to police sources is valid is not unique to this discussion.

 

[JDG]

What if doors had chains on, on the inside?

The side door was always unlocked. Needed a key to get through the front door. No security on the house as per TPS

 

[Sistertamala]

Hi! i am new here, interested because I live in Toronto as well. From what I can see there is tons of information based on "sources" and "media". I am wondering if all threads are like this, or if this one is unique in the amount of theories (ie autoasphexia, the mob, pharmaceutical) with no factual basis?

 

[JDG]

LE, I'm sure, doesn't always have immediate access to next of kin contact information, especially if they have yet to even identify the deceased. Then, once they contact the next of kin, they have to be absolutely sure they have the right person, lest they give some inappropriate and erroneous bad news to the wrong person. It's not always as easy as it sounds, nor as quick as some think it should be.

The family didn't like hearing about the murder-suicide angle. I can't think of many families that have said they enjoyed having their personal tragedies aired out in public. Typically, when families complain about their privacy in these situations, they don't get nationwide coverage. I'm not sure disdain is the right word. Pointing out a class based privilege makes some uncomfortable, but it shouldn't be taken so personally that criticising one's alleged "disdain" is done with such disdain.

 

[otto]

Hi! i am new here, interested because I live in Toronto as well. From what I can see there is tons of information based on "sources" and "media". I am wondering if all threads are like this, or if this one is unique in the amount of theories (ie autoasphexia, the mob, pharmaceutical) with no factual basis?

Good question! I've been here for a while and, in my humble opinion, it is not the norm in these discussions to run with theories that have no factual basis. At the same time, the only real source of information for any discussion has been what is published by news reporters. If we omit all news reports from these discussion, then none of us know anything and there's nothing to say other than wild imaginings and unfounded theories.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I'm trying to keep up with this thread; apologies if I missed something obvious, as this confuses me a little.

Will someone "explain like I'm 5" the significance of these stories and possible ties?

Wouldn't most homes in the Shermans' neighborhood (and even the area) have basements? Similarly, wouldn't neighbors include affluent members of similar occupations, like bankers, real estate developers, etc? Birds of a feather, so to speak.

Is there an implication that the controversial business meetings were happening in the same general neighborhoods, or do these posts ask the hypothetical that the Shermans (or Mr. Sherman, specifically) could have been involved in them? Do you think they also could have happened at the Shermans' homes?

I'd like to better consider/study this angle.

Halp. LOL.

(and thank you!)

:thud: :thud: :thud:

ETA: NOTE tthe additional property in the North York neighbourhood

This one might raise the hair on the back of anyone's neck, imo.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Irans-mystery-banker-in-Canada

Credit goes to Peace777 for finding this article. Gonna raise some eyebrows I think. Note the basement meetings in Bridle Path.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ve-and-the-bitter-condo-feud/article30833853/

 

[otto]

I'm trying to keep up with this thread; apologies if I missed something obvious, as this confuses me a little.

Will someone "explain like I'm 5" the significance of these stories and possible ties?

Wouldn't most homes in the Shermans' neighborhood (and even the area) have basements? Similarly, wouldn't neighbors include affluent members of similar occupations, like bankers, real estate developers, etc? Birds of a feather, so to speak.

Is there an implication that the controversial business meetings were happening in the same general neighborhoods, or do these posts ask the hypothetical that the Shermans (or Mr. Sherman, specifically) could have been involved in them? Do you think they also could have happened at the Shermans' homes?

I'd like to better consider/study this angle.

Halp. LOL.

(and thank you!)

All houses in Canada have basements. It's necessary because of the cold weather. I can't help you with any of the theories related to conspiracy and murder. Police are at this time investigating the deaths as a murder suicide.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Hi, Sister, welcome to WS!!
:loveyou:

Sometimes threads like this can get a little overly self-referential as they evolve, meaning we all start discussing known or possible facts (often linked far upthread in msm sources, etc.) in a type of shorthand that can be kinda confusing sometimes. It's not intentional. But it can be confusing! I'm guilty of that, too.

Asking questions is always a good idea, I think, just like you have done.

Sometimes, I'll go back and read the first few pages of the thread to refresh myself on the case basics, etc., especially if there are multiple threads (like, we're on No. 3 with this case). I still lose track sometimes! LOL. Here's a link to general Websleuths user rules and Terms of Service, as far as how and what we're allowed to post and discuss, and forum etiquette, etc.

Again, glad you're here!

:welcome:

Hi! i am new here, interested because I live in Toronto as well. From what I can see there is tons of information based on "sources" and "media". I am wondering if all threads are like this, or if this one is unique in the amount of theories (ie autoasphexia, the mob, pharmaceutical) with no factual basis?

 

[Jasper52]

All houses in Canada have basements. It's necessary because of the cold weather. I can't help you with any of the theories related to conspiracy and murder. Police are at this time investigating the deaths as a murder suicide.

RBBM

Not true. Plenty of houses without basements exist across Canada.

 

[Cdndm]

Not the funeral. In one of the first articles it was mentioned that a woman ducked under the tape with flowers in her hand. She spoke to police and the reporter noted her crying. Don't remember which article though. Maybe someone else does.

The article was this one: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...at-apotex-founder-barry-shermans-mansion.html
After police spoke outside the house, a woman who said she worked at Apotex showed up with flowers in hand. She walked straight through the police tape to drop them off, and cried when she spoke quietly to reporters. She hadn’t known Honey, but learned of Barry’s death that afternoon, she said.

“He was very loved. He was very fair. He was very respected,” she said.