FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #3

[UK Sleuth]

Why do you think for certain they were transients?

Just interested on that one.

Motive is a difficult one with such a lack of evidence but I think a sexual motivation, JK is an attractive young blonde so that would be my guess but like I say with very little to go on its hard to say.

 

[shwa]

Went over to profiler Maurice Godwin's site looking for the map on the

Jennifer Kesse case. It's under ... media interviews ... in the Orlando Sentinel
on Feb. 16. In the nearest intersection, just outside of HOTG it says ...
video image ... could this be where the photo of someone driving JK's car have been taken.

 

[leftcoast]

regardless of what anyone says, I believe errors were made early in this investigation. I have already mentioned a few.

for the life of me, I still don't understand why the security or management at JK's complex didn't start writing down license plate numbers of cars at the complex. Even if they only wrote down the plates as the cars left the complex.

For what I understand, there is only one entrance and exit. How difficult could this have been.

It also doesnt' seem like anyone took this case as serious as necessary until JK's car was found.

People like Jennifer Wilbanks, and the other nuts, who stage their own disappearance, definitely play a part in why LE is slow to investigate when people go missing.

left

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[UK Sleuth]

Left it does seem that erros have been made.

I am assuming there is no CCTV footage of any kind at JKs complex?

If there is I would hope that it has been studied for the days and weeks preceeding her disappearance, I find it hard to believe whoever did this was not scouting the area or at least been there once in the preeceding few days on some sort of reconnaisance mission.

With regard to the number plates I think like you say the problem is people dont take things seriously at first because they assume that the person will be found or whatever, also you dont always do the right thing when you should.

My bosses favourite phrase is 'Hindisight is the best tool in our toolbox'

You know we have got something wrong when he wheels out that old chestnut in a meeting!!

Also minding your own business and 'not getting involved' is the easy part isnt it?

 

[leftcoast]

UK

I don't believe there has been any mention of CCTV at JK's condo (most apartments, condo's, don't have cctv in the US). Therefore, I think it is safe to say, no such system existed when JK went missing.

You made a good point about recon. and this crime. It is hard to believe that JK's abduction was the first time the perp. was on the condo grounds.

Last JUly, we were all discussing this case on a different site. And you know what, not one new item, one new clue, has been released by LE. We keep on hearing about the last piece of the puzzle. The last piece of the puzzle is always the easiest. It is the first pieces which are the most difficult.


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[Valiant]

From what I've read, it seems the Mosaic had a gated parking lot but no cameras on the entrance or anywhere else. Mosaic's website now says there are alarms in each unit, but I don't know and have never heard 1) If they were there when JK was if she armed her alarm which could pinpoint a time or if 2) the alarms were a later addition.

I still think it's quite possible she was abducted elsewhere and in a fit of panic the perp tried to return the car to divert attention away from that site.

I had thought she made it to work and was attacked there, but don't think that anymore as relatives said she always called her boyfriend on the trip to work. Maybe she stopped someplace first, like to mail the phone and intended to make her phone call later but the attack occurred first.

 

[Enrique Sparta]

Well, there are many good points made in the posts above.

I agree that these abductions are made at speed and they can also be violent.
With what I have read here I am leaning towards a gun being used.
The next question is was Jennifer taken in her car or another one?

I'm also thinking there was more than one offender in this abduction and I think it's obvious they were transients. That's the very reason they haven't been found.
If one of the offenders is in fact an 'accessory after the fact' I believe he is the one who parked the car and is the POI. He could well have been asked to shift her car from Mosaic to Huntington.

This is purely conjecture I know but what else can we do? We have very little to work with.

Finally, I'm certain that theft wasn't a motive in this case.
Does anyone care to suggest a motive?

Agree with you about transients and an accomplice. In fact, last night when I went over TV pieces and articles from the Orlando Sentinel, the detectives also mentioned they believed there was a strong possibility there was more than one person involved. And yes they mentioned the transients as a central part of their investigation. And I also agree the POI is likely an accesory or accomplice, that's why there have been pleas from law enforcement and JK's family pleading with somebody to come forward before it's too late to make deals. All public comments. JK's father even commented about the POI coming forward now before he gets into any more trouble.

Not sure about whether she was taken in another car, but why would they move her car to another complex? Suppose she was abducted in the parking area or right outside her apartment, why would they even touch her car. It's not like they drove the car somewhere where it would be difficult to find.


Motive. Certainly theft seems unlikely. Unfortunately I would guess she was abducted to be sexually assaulted, she is a very attractive girl. Maybe she saw something she wasn't supposed to? I dunno why people go missing, I wish I knew. I'm dying to know what happens to people who don't voluntarily disappear.

 

[leftcoast]

So, Le thinks the perp. could be a transient, with an accomplice? Hmm. is this the same LE that thought this case would be solved within a week?

Truth is, all we can do is speculate. We don't have access to vital information:

such as:
Jk;s cellphone records
JK's home phone records
Jk's work phone
Hairs, fibers, prints, and any other evidence found in the car
The other photos from HOTG.
Photos from other cameras in the neighborhood
Tips from callers !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Acess to neighbors, and their alibi's and criminal records
Access to contractors, garbagemen, deliverymen, cable installers, etc. at Mosaic
Access to friends, family, co-workers, alibis and criminal records.
Interview with staff at the Mosaic grounds
Evidence from Jk's condo
etc.

So, all we can simply do is speculate. It just seems that if the answer was obvious, this case would have been solved a long time ago. Since it is still unsolved, IMO, the perp. had this planned, is familar with LE and their techniques, and most likely moved the car to throw off police.

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[Myserty64]

That list just about covers all the bases leftcoast!

I think you are right about the car being moved to cause confusion. It appears to have worked too because it delayed the start of the investigation by a couple of days.
I just hope the detectives have more to work on than I think they have.

While I think of it...........remember the playing cards that were distributed to the jails last year? It looks like they have drawn a blank too.
On a positive note things could be happening behind the scenes that we don't know about and the police could be involved in a waiting game.

 

[UK Sleuth]

This really is the most infuriating case.
In most disappearances you at least have something to work with but there is nothing.

Who kidnapped JK?

Transients
An Ex
A neighbour
A worker
A stalker
A colleague
A relative


When did they get her?

8am
10pm
Anywhere in between

Where did they get her?
In her condo.
By her car
On her way to work


What is the poi?

Male
Female
Perp
accomplice
witness
innocent bystanding illegal alien.

Why is the car a crime scene?

Prints
Fiber
DNA
Blood

What was the motive?

Rape
Murder
Both of the above
To be held hostage indefinetly


The only thing I think we can say for sure is that JK was kidnapped, other than that its just theory on top of counter theory.

To break this case something needs to occur, some new piece of evidence must come to light or someone has to talk.

I realise all this is stating the obvious, its the one case if I could pick of any I would like to know everything the authorities know.

 

[Melisinde]

Uk, you've got a great summary there. From what I've seen, many people think that she was either killed immediately or she is still a hostage to this day. I'm not sure what particularly drives the second theory, but there have been cases like Shawn Hornbeck and the "Woman in the Box" (can't remember the name, just the title of the Crime Library article.) I agree that this case is frustrating though. There are as many (lack of) leads as in the Tara Grinstead case and these two will be forever entwined in my mind. I can only hope that LE is keeping everything so quiet and secure because they have some really dynamite stuff. Prayers for Jennifer and Tara...

 

[Myserty64]

Good work UK!

My hunches go like this:

Possibly an ex or a stalker.
Probably transient/s.

The time was probably around 8am.

Abducted by her car.

The POI is most probably male.

It is probable the car has provided DNA.

Sadly the motive was most likely rape/murder.

 

[UK Sleuth]

I tend to agree with your narrowed down list!

Going back to the poi pic which no doubt we have all studied, I cant say I have ever seen a more bizarrely dressed looking person.

They appear to have some sort of hat which looks like a beret, their trousers seem to be half way up there torso like Simon Cowell and seem to have incredibly big feet in comparison to their height.

The lack of quality in the picture may be accentuating this but they really do look odd.

Does this bizarre dress especially the beret tie in with the theory of transients?

Just wondering what your thoughts as obviously I am not aware of the average transients attire, well not US ones anyway!

 

[leftcoast]

Going back to the poi pic which no doubt we have all studied, I cant say I have ever seen a more bizarrely dressed looking person.

They appear to have some sort of hat which looks like a beret, their trousers seem to be half way up there torso like Simon Cowell and seem to have incredibly big feet in comparison to their height.

Does this bizarre dress especially the beret tie in with the theory of transients?

Just wondering what your thoughts as obviously I am not aware of the average transients attire, well not US ones anyway!

UK:

The average transient (assuming you are referring to the homeless), at least where I live, normally wears blue jeans, tennis shoes or hiking shoes, jacket, and usually some type of hat.

I too, find the outfit of the POI very odd. I must say I have never dressed that way, but, without color, it is hard to imagine what the outfit looks like.

Others, and me, have suggested the POI is either wearing a beret, hat, or even a helmet. I wouldn't rule out a bicycle rider, with bicycle shoes, and rubber banded pants. Some say construction, others restaurant worker. etc.

I've always said that LE should have done the following:

Used different people, of different height and weight, and different clothing, such as blue jeans, sweat pants, carhardts, etc, to walk past the camera at HOTG. It was my feeling, that with different outfits (including hats), that one would get better feel of the POI's clothing.

Such an experiment would also help in judging the pOI's height, weight, and whether he was carrying anything, which many speculate he was.

Since this picture came out, whenever I ride the train, I always look for similar clothing. I have only seen the pants on one occasion. It was on a police officer, who was some type of swat officer, with the elastic band on the bottom.

Maybe, just maybe, this POI was posing as LE. Nothing would surprise me.

left

 

[leftcoast]

They appear to have some sort of hat which looks like a beret, their trousers seem to be half way up there torso like Simon Cowell and seem to have incredibly big feet in comparison to their height.

Well, it appears that Websleuths has fixed their "computer glitch".

UK: Your statement about the POI, especially the size to the feet, hits home.

Since last July, I have been arguing that "I" believe the height of the POI is not accurate. The following are reasons for my conclusion:

1) The camera which took the pictures of the POI is approximately 25 feet in distance from the POI. The camera is perched under the poolhouse roof, and is approximately 15-18 feet from the ground. Given this steep angle, anybody standing in close proximity to the gate, will appear to be shorter than actual size. The opposite is true as one gets further away from the gate toward the parking lot.

2) When one attempts to estimate height, we use an outside source as a type of barometer. In most cases, we use our own height to compare. In this case, we are forced to use the height of the POi in comparison to the gate. This is where the problem begins. The gate is 6"10 in height. Anybody who is standing within 15 feet of that gate will appear to be short because they are shorter than the gate, not to mention the severe angle of the camera.

3) Lastly, and most importantly, the camera shot of the POI is "MISLEADING". The elevation of the gate, and the ground in which the POI is walking, are not on the same plane. AS a matter of fact, it appears that the POI is approximately 9-12 inches below the plane of the gate and cooldeck.

I found a great reference aid to those who are like me, and are suspect of POI height estimate. http://www.wftv.com/video/6885628/detail.html. This video, shows the Kesse's taking a tour of the grounds of HOTG. IF you stop the video at .31/1.26, or at 31 seconds, you will see a view of the disparity in height between the gate and the parking lot in which the POI was walking.

This shot at 31 seconds, also shows how the police are attempting to estimate the height of the POI. To me, it is quite obvious that the female officer used as a model to represent the POI, is much shorter than the POI. If you take it one step further, IMO, the male officer is much closer to the actual height of the POI.

Conclusion: I may be wrong, for I have never been to the HOTG, but, from the beginning, I have always believed the POI"s height is not accurate. I think, since this is the only real clue that LE has, it should be double checked. I still believe that the best way to judge the POI's height is to have various people, who are 5"2, 5"6, 5'10. 6'2, walk in the same path as the POI. The camera on the poolhouse should be used to photograph these individuals, and the height should be compared to the POI. When all is said and done, I believe the height of the POI is much greater than 5"5, and closer to a range of 5"10-6"2. This is of course, just my opinion. I sure hope I am wrong.


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[UK Sleuth]

Good work left I agree the poi definitely appears taller than the female officer.

It is hard to distinguish how far away the poi is from the actual gate, another foot further away than you think would make the poi appear shorter than they are.

The mystery just rumbles on....

 

[leftcoast]

Good work left I agree the poi definitely appears taller than the female officer.

It is hard to distinguish how far away the poi is from the actual gate, another foot further away than you think would make the poi appear shorter than they are.

The mystery just rumbles on....

Hey Uk: Thanks for the compliment:

Uk, last summer, on a different board, a person who lives in Orlando, actually drove to the HOTG and made some measurements, and posted the measurements on a website discussion board.

If I recall correctly:

THe POI is approximately 4 feet from the curb. The curb is approximately 6 feet from the gate, hence, the POI is approximately 10 feet from the pool gate. Supposedly, LE had marked with tape, or chalk, the POI's position, and the internet poster was able to use this to measure the distances. Based on her measurements, and reviewing the scene, I think they are in the ballpark.

AS for the height of the POI, the more I study the two pictures, the more convinced I am that the POI is much taller than 5"5.

Another thing that this video suggests, is that this picture of the POI is the best picture that LE has of the POI. Why? Because doesn't it seem that LE would use the best picture in order to estimate the height of the POI. It is obvious from the video, that LE was attempting to estimate the pOI's height, or at the least, verifying their estimate.

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[UK Sleuth]

It does suggest that is the best or only pic they have.

Still bugs met that we dont know how or why LE know the car was dumped around that time therefore making the poi a poi.

If it were a witness you would think that it would have come out by now that 'A witness saw the car dumped at that time'

They dont have to say 'the witness saw the poi dump the car'

I cant believe if they have CCTV of the car being parked it doesnt provide another shot of the poi dumping it(if in fact they did)

The other thought I had was that LE may have the car appearing on other CCTV's en route around HOTG.

So by assumption they see the car on a timeline toward HOTG and then at the end of the timeline the poi appears.

 

[leftcoast]

It does suggest that is the best or only pic they have.

Still bugs met that we dont know how or why LE know the car was dumped around that time therefore making the poi a poi.

If it were a witness you would think that it would have come out by now that 'A witness saw the car dumped at that time'

They dont have to say 'the witness saw the poi dump the car'

I cant believe if they have CCTV of the car being parked it doesnt provide another shot of the poi dumping it(if in fact they did)

The other thought I had was that LE may have the car appearing on other CCTV's en route around HOTG.

So by assumption they see the car on a timeline toward HOTG and then at the end of the timeline the poi appears.

Hey UK

I really don't know how LE can put the POI in the parking lot when JK"s car is being dumped. It bugs me too, that LE won't release more details and hope the added information will crack this case.

However, if you think about it rationally, IMO, it must be that one of the two camera's that we know about, caught the POI either exiting the car, or driving past the camera's at HOTG. It's possible, and in my opinion, very likely, that the second camera at HOTG caught a glimpse of JK's car being parked, and only obtained a partial view of the driver, say the shoes and pants. Another possibility, is that the POI drove by the pool gate, and that same camera snapped a picture of the POI driving by the gate. And then one minute later, give or take, the POI is caught strolling past the infamous pool gate.

As for witnesses, I think that is unlikely. It just seems unlikely somebody would pay attention to another person parking a car, and then remember the event days later. You see, when JK's car was parked, it was not common knowledge she was missing.

AS for other CCTV enroute to HOTG, that is a strong possibility. But, unless the CCTV was an incredibly close up shot, how would LE be able to recognize the person in JK's car as the same person who walked past the pool camera at noon?

I still believe that one of the camera's at HOTG caught JK;s car either entering the lot, or being parked. IMO, the picture only shows a portion of the POI, and hence LE is only showing us the best shot of the POI.

left

UK: Your honest opinion. What do you think the range of height for the POI is? I realize it is hard to judge, but, if you had to guess, what would you guess? don't let my estimate or the estimate from the police influence you. I want your honest opinion. And how would you go about estimating the height?

 

[Myserty64]

One would have to say that after 14 months this case is in a lot of trouble and is getting colder by the minute.
I can't remember the police releasing any new information since the POI was nominated as ............you guessed it............a POI.

I don't know about the height of the POI. I would like to think that the FBI, who helped out with the height estimation, would know what they were doing. If we take the higher estimate of 5' 5" there are still a lot of males around of that height. In fact I have one living next door and he also looks to be strong enough doing yard work. A male of this build can still easily overpower a female; it's just the way it is.

It is worth noting that if it wasn't for the released photos of the POI there wouldn't be much to go on.
What about unreleased photos of the POI? What's the big secret with those?
It is obvious the police have evidence of the POI parking the car otherwise they couldn't be certain the POI was photographed at the same time the car was parked.
The police have never nominated any other suspect other than the POI so they may have evidence we are unaware of.

The police have conducted numerous interviews regarding Jennifer Kesse. They must have something from all those interviews.
The police would have heard theories from Jennifer's friends and workmates. They would have picked up a lot of gossip and people do see and hear things. There would be workers at Mosaic that may have mentioned their suspicions about other workers.
We would most likely be quite surprised to see what is in the Jennifer Kesse file.

Right from the beginning homicide detectives were investigating this case. Any detectives worst scenario is a homicide case without a body.

Sadly, this case doesn't have a whole lot going for it as far as getting a suspect to court goes.