Gun Control Debate #4

[Credulious]

The officer at the Florida media conference said, we must address access to firearms for people under psychiatric care.

 

[Blef]

The programme also looked into claims that the Batman movie killer James Holmes, who killed 12 people at a midnight premier cinema screening at Colorado in 2012, was taking the SSRIs sertraline at the time of the murders.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/25/antidepressants-linked-murders-murderous-thoughts/

From that link

"the link between murders and antidepressants in cases referred to the MHRA do not mean the drugs caused the events..."

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

In the latest school shooting in Florida, the officer was outlining the need for removal of firearms from those under mental health treatment. Theres a starter for you.

Good luck getting your source on what is not made public.

At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 172 wounded and 80 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public)
https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

OK, so the statement about all shooters being on meds and restricting guns from everyone on meds is based on your opinion, not evidence.

Thank you for clearing that up. [emoji106]

 

[bluesneakers]

The programme also looked into claims that the Batman movie killer James Holmes, who killed 12 people at a midnight premier cinema screening at Colorado in 2012, was taking the SSRIs sertraline at the time of the murders.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/25/antidepressants-linked-murders-murderous-thoughts/

So where are the mass shootings in the UK? Wouldn't those numbers be comparable if the SSRIs were to blame for the USA school shootings?

The pills, known as Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) which includes common drugs like Prozac and Seroxat, are prescribed 40 million times each year in Britain.

Also from the link:

However court psychiatrist Dr William Reid who also interviewed Holmes before the trial, told the programme makers that he thought the killings were a result of mental illness and "completely unrelated to the medication."

Prosecuting Attorney George Brauchler told Panorama: “I don’t think the medications caused these shootings, I think this guy with his evil thoughts, having concluded that he had no other alternative future, with the mental illness, led to this, that’s what I think did it.”

 

[flourish]

All the mass shooters are on meds. They all pick AR15s which is indicative of their mindset.

I read the other day something like 95% of the school shootings have happened in the last 25 years in America. Whats gone wrong with America?

Anyone being treated, shouldn't have access to firearms.

Who shoots unarmed schoolkids? It must be one of the most cowardice acts possible?

Source that "all mass shooters are on meds," please.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The officer at the Florida media conference said, we must address access to firearms for people under psychiatric care.

Correct.

As part of a multilayered response.

It’s not the only answer, and works best in conjunction with gun reform measures. Mental health care definitely needs reform and across-the-board improvement in this country. I think few will argue that point.

Now that we’ve cleared that up, most people with diagnosed mental disorders NEVER COMMIT MURDER. In fact, they’re more likely to be victims of violence.

____________
“Public opinion surveys suggest that many people think mental illness and violence go hand in hand. A 2006 national survey found, for example, that 60% of Americans thought that people with schizophrenia were likely to act violently toward someone else, while 32% thought that people with major depression were likely to do so.

“In fact, research suggests that this public perception does not reflect reality. Most individuals with psychiatric disorders are not violent. Although a subset of people with psychiatric disorders commit assaults and violent crimes, findings have been inconsistent about how much mental illness contributes to this behavior and how much substance abuse and other factors do.”
https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence

____________
Drug abuse and addiction — including alcohol — is much more dominant a factor in violent crime.
https://www.crimesolutions.gov/TopicDetails.aspx?ID=53

“Drugs and alcohol also impact crime indirectly via the effects they have on users’ behavior and by their association with violence and other illegal activity in connection with their manufacture, distribution, acquisition or consumption.”
____________
____________

Sooooo, jumping off the reasoning that anyone on medication for mental health treatment shouldn’t have a gun ... by all means, it should be illegal for any intoxicated person to carry or use a firearm. It only makes sense, yeah? Because they’re abusing an intoxicating substance, which is way more dangerous.

I don’t see the logic in punishing people (removing their guns) who are actually receiving treatment and healing progress under the care of a licensed medical professional. They’re stabilized. The overwhelming majority get BETTER, as in, the diagnosed issue goes away or/and into remission.

It’s the ones who need the MOST help and aren’t getting it because they can’t afford or access it — or are warehoused in jails or shunted to the periphery — those folks deserve more from us as a society. Most are treatable. Almost none (if any) are mass shooters. Many are military veterans.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Psychiatric Drugs and Violence: A Review of FDA Data Finds A Link
Antidepressants near top of list of drugs associated with violence
Posted Jan 05, 2011
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...drugs-and-violence-review-fda-data-finds-link

---
The drug/violence question is certainly a valid question. Especially in children, and young adults. IMO. Psychotropics are very powerful drugs.

A few considerations -

Was the patient violent before? Diagnosed, prescribed meds, and still violent?

Was the patient withdrawn, then became violent?

Was the patient either / or, meds helped but patient stopped taking them?

Was the patient on psychiatric meds, and mixing it up with someone's medicine cabinet, and or illicit street drugs?

Was the shooter, violent, or not, undiagnosed, and self medicating?

The Las Vegas shooter was found to have trace amount of anxiety meds in his system and no alcohol. That was published.

Correct me if I am wrong but IIRC we know of a few cases of severe mental illness from Tuscan, Aurora, Sandy Hook, etc., but if there is a direct correlation to psychiatric meds and all mass shootings I have not seen it published. And though this may be a factor, the easy access to lethal weapons speaks more to the recent acceleration of these tragedies.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

SHOOTING INCIDENTS WHERE PERPETRATOR WAS KNOWN TO BE ON OR WITHDRAWING FROM PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS:

SHOOTING INCIDENTS WHERE PERPETRATOR WAS SUSPECTEDOF BEING ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS (SUCH AS DRUGS FOUND IN APARTMENT OR CAR, SAW PSYCHIATRISTS IN THE PAST, ETC.):
June 3, 1999:
THERE WAS NO RELEASED INFO
RMATION OR
PUBLISHED REPORT OF THE PERPETRATOR BEING ON PSYCHI
ATRIC DRUGS:
Dec. 30, 1999:
ded.
6

rsbm

ToS-acceptable sources? TIA

And your own list (regardless of its origin), according to its titles and random inclusions, implies shooters who were not TAKING MEDS at the time. It also includes sleeping meds, ADHD meds, etc etc etc.

Sooooo, it appears as though you might actually be arguing *against* the very point you’re trying to make??

So, yeah. More text =/= more facts.

Here’s why the logic doesn’t work, imo:

“Nearly half of American households have had someone seek mental health treatment this year.”
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/survey.aspx

HALF!

[emoji106][emoji120][emoji119]

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The Citizens Commission on Human Rights International (CCHR) is a nonprofit organization established in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz, headquartered in Los Angeles, California.

bbm

Not exactly an unbiased source. SMH

moo

Jumping off your post, Jax: Doesn’t the Church of Scientology shun psychiatry, mental health care and medication?

I’m not sure that’s the answer to gun violence that Americans are looking for, imo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry

“Since the founding of the Church of Scientology in 1954 by L. Ron Hubbard, the relationship between Scientology and psychiatry has been dominated by strong opposition by the organization against the medical specialties of psychiatry and psychology, with themes relating to this opposition occurring repeatedly throughout Scientology literature and doctrine.[1][2][3][4] According to the Church of Scientology, psychiatry has a long history of improper and abusive care.[5]

“The group's views have been disputed, criticized and condemned by experts in the medical and scientific community.”

Moving on ...

 

[CoolJ]

Aside from the Scientology sources which make the claims of "every mass shooting suspect being on SSRI's" hard to take as credible. I definitely think it is something that needs to be looked into and investigated in depth. This doesn't take away from the easy accessibility of high powered firearms being an obvious factor at play as to why this happens in America.

Here is a short clip of Michael Moore recently discussing this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpinCRaAQOk

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Bumpity bumpity [emoji235] [emoji195]

In case you are wondering I have lost my mind.

Rather than spend hours trying to remove posts in varies discussion that discuss the gun debate I thought I would give this a try just this once.

The reason I have kept the gun control debate off Websleuths is that people will lose their minds. Sorry not trying to say I don't have faith in you. I am saying I don't have faith in some of you.

All OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES APPLY.

No name calling,
No rudeness
Mainstream media and respected journals, websites only. No crazy right or left wing sites.

This is like any other topic on Websleuths.

If someone could please make a post with the links to the demonstrations coming up that would be a good way to start.

I will be watching this thread all through the evening.

Full disclosure. In my opinion, it is obscene that we have automatic weapons available. period. However, I believe that Government will never have the courage to do the right thing and stop taking money from the NRA and start getting these weapons out of the hands of angry people. Therefore it is up to us to try and stop creating the kids who are so angry they feel killing is the only way. We keep waiting on the powers that be to do something and more and more innocents are killed. No more waiting. Let's pinpoint who these kids are and take them out of society, preferably via a mental health facility, and stop the carnage before one more AR-15 or any other assault rifle is picked up by the hands of a potential killer.

Go for it.

Tricia

Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I am not sure what this post means. Students of color and disabled students are not doing the school shootings.

You’re correct, Jennifer. It was an attempt to reduce “exclusionary discipline” and protect civil rights.

Bumping my previous post. [emoji106]

Right. Blame Obama. Lol [emoji6][emoji854]

Those of us familiar with the school to prison pipeline and related data know these measures are to PREVENT shunting kids from schools en masse and find and provide them the help they need. It’s meant to reduce the overuse of what’s called “exclusionary discipline.”

Here’s a REALLY interesting report, imo. An investigation into Oklahoma City Public Schools into this topic for the US Commission on Civil Rights.

(downloadable pdf)
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/Oklahoma_SchooltoPrisonPipeline_May2016.pdf

ALSO ...

The federal law (Gun Free Schools Act of 1994) requires that children be referred to appropriate juvenile care IN ADDITION TO them being removed from that specific school. So it’s already mandated. I do wonder, however, what remedies have been developed district-to district, and how consistently it’s enforced (ie; see above link)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_Schools_Act_of_1994

“The Gun-Free Schools Act of 1994 requires each state receiving federal funds to have a state law in effect requiring local educational agencies to expel, for at least one year, any student who is determined to have brought a weapon to school.

“The one-year expulsion is mandatory, except when a chief administering officer of such local education agency may modify it on a case-by-case basis.[2]

“In addition, schools are directed to develop policies requiring referral to the criminal justice or juvenile delinquency system for any student who brings a firearm or weapon to school.[2]”

 

[Jax49]

Bumpity bumpity [emoji235] [emoji195]

Thanks for bumping that.

One problem I noticed with Tricia's statement, the guns we're talking about are almost all semi-automatics, not machine guns.

moo

 

[Jax49]

Jumping off your post, Jax: Doesn’t the Church of Scientology shun psychiatry, mental health care and medication?

I’m not sure that’s the answer to gun violence that Americans are looking for, imo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry

“Since the founding of the Church of Scientology in 1954 by L. Ron Hubbard, the relationship between Scientology and psychiatry has been dominated by strong opposition by the organization against the medical specialties of psychiatry and psychology, with themes relating to this opposition occurring repeatedly throughout Scientology literature and doctrine.[1][2][3][4] According to the Church of Scientology, psychiatry has a long history of improper and abusive care.[5]

“The group's views have been disputed, criticized and condemned by experts in the medical and scientific community.”

Moving on ...

One more then I promise to move on -- if anyone is interested they should google WikiLeaks' write up on CCHR.

moo

 

[bluesneakers]

Aside from the Scientology sources which make the claims of "every mass shooting suspect being on SSRI's" hard to take as credible. I definitely think it is something that needs to be looked into and investigated in depth. This doesn't take away from the easy accessibility of high powered firearms being an obvious factor at play as to why this happens in America.

Here is a short clip of Michael Moore recently discussing this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpinCRaAQOk

I agree with you, but I think we also need to look at what was going on before they were prescribed the meds. These meds are prescribed to many, many people yet most don't go on to commit mass murder. Were they misdiagnosed? Were they even seeing a psychiatrist or were the prescriptions via a PCP/GP? Are they being treated with medication and without proper followup?

Which is why I wondered about the numbers in countries like the UK, Canada and Australia, for example, because they are likely prescribed as frequently but mass murder occurs less frequently in those countries. What are the other differences? Is it how often they see their doctors? How much time they spend with them? Because those countries also have more comprehensive healthcare systems than the USA.

Throw in teenagers are probably even less likely to be compliant than the adults and compliancy is a problem in adults who are being treated with psych meds. So if they are ill they are suddenly not being treated and they might also be having withdrawal symptoms (cold turkey on a psych med is a BIG no no.)

And then of course there's the gun thing.

 

[Tawny]

A scared, half asleep, panicked individual, might not be best person to wield a machete either. j.s.

Pepper spray is not all it's cracked up to be, again, half asleep or outside, and you can spray yourself. Outside you may just get blow back and then you're incapacitated.

Tasers are a good option, just ensure that, like a firearm, one keeps them away from kids, as they can kill a child, and some adults (see link). Get comfortable handling the one you choose. Note: If you choose a stun gun, be comfortable with it as well, you must be up close to the assailant for a stun gun to be effective, and you'd also want to keep them away from children.

The fire extinguisher is a good option.

My bro sleeps w/a L'vlle Slugger by his nightstand. If folks want to pack them around for defense though, I'd tell them to also take up "baseball" and carry the glove and ball. Who know when you might come up on a game? Bats are considered deadly weapons. If you are just packing a bat as a weapon, that's frowned upon. People use the bat, just to beat folks up, many times, so it doesn't appear they've used a deadly weapon, when, in fact, they have..

Police Use Stun Gun on Eight Year Old, Killing Her
https://www.cnn.com/2014/08/09/us/south-dakota-taser-lawsuit/index.html

Lemme know when machetes and pepper spray can fly through a wall and kill a sleeping child lol Pepper spraying yourself isn't lethal.

All the mass shooters are on meds. They all pick AR15s which is indicative of their mindset.

I read the other day something like 95% of the school shootings have happened in the last 25 years in America. Whats gone wrong with America?

Anyone being treated, shouldn't have access to firearms.

Who shoots unarmed schoolkids? It must be one of the most cowardice acts possible?

Just. So much flat out wrong information here.

I think we're full on into CT territory here. JMO

Yeah wtaf

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Thanks for bumping that.

One problem I noticed with Tricia's statement, the guns we're talking about are almost all semi-automatics, not machine guns.

moo

Great point! Agreed.

No reason to circle through that “Actually Rifle” debate again! [emoji6]

The term “military-style” rifles is more accurate. Or “assault-style” rifle. Semiauto, AR-15-style rifles.

Thank you for mentioning that, Jax!!


Assault rifle, U.S. definition:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

Military-style Rifle, US definition:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile...ealth/parkland-shooting-victims-ar15.amp.html

Assault-style weapons in the civilian market:
https://www.npr.org/2012/12/20/167694808/assault-style-weapons-in-the-civilian-market

Military-style semi-automatic, NZ definition:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-style_semi-automatic

 

[Tricia]

We are talking about Gun Control in the U.S.

Other countries can be brought into the conversation as it relates our country's gun control but please let's not have big history lessons OK?

Thank you,
Tricia

 

[Blef]

Department of Justice wants to ban Bump Stocks.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018...proposal-ban-bump-stocks-180310160813889.html

Wonder how they'll get back the already sold bump stocks?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Automatic firearms not allowed in USA.

Other countries automatic firearms everywhere cheap as chips. Hardly any school shootings in many these schools.

$25 USD for automatic firearms in other countries. Automatics not allowed in USA.

Agreed, Credulous! Guess where a lot of those guns are made? The source of many of those weapons?

Who helps fuel that violence?

[emoji631] Yup, America. [emoji631]

MOO, IMO, etc.

Exclusive: Trump administration prepares to ease export rules for U.S. guns
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-ease-export-rules-for-u-s-guns-idUSKCN1BU2N8

Amnesty report: ISIS armed with U.S. weapons
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...ty-international-isis-weapons-u-s-/index.html

Beyond Our Borders
How Weak U.S. Gun Laws Contribute to Violent Crime Abroad
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2018/02/02/445659/beyond-our-borders/

American guns are killing our neighbors in Canada and Mexico
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-parsons-us-guns-abroad-20180206-story.html

Op-ed: Our global guns problem
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0223-overton-us-guns-abroad-20160223-story.html

Romanian weapons modified in the U.S. become scourge of Mexican drug war
WASR-10 produced by Century International Arms found repeatedly at crime scenes south of the border
https://www.publicintegrity.org/201...s-modified-us-become-scourge-mexican-drug-war

The United States in Yemen
How American Weapons Deals Enable Saudi Arabia’s War
http://hir.harvard.edu/article/?a=14490